harascho

Hi folks,

after finishing my '66 some serious engine problems led to a 2nd engine removal and teardown. Here are the facts I know until now:

When I bought the car in CA 2012 it was partly disassembled. It was claimed that the engine had been overhauled. Further it was claimed to be +0.030 overbored and a mild cam was fitted. That's all I was told. The car wasn't driven any long time since then in the hands of the last owner.

I didn't touch the engine except:
removed the valve covers, oil pan, intake, front cover

I found:
a new camshaft, new lifters, new valve train, a very clean top end, new pistons and an overall very very clean engine. A new timing gear was also visible.

After completing my work and the engine running after a carb overhaul I found out that the oil pressure was very low:
>40 PSI when cold at about 2000rpm,
hot idling in P 8,5 PSI,
hot idling in D 6 PSI
I use Castrol Classic 20W50 oil. Those numbers could still be ok but I had to learn that I am missing one oil baffle, the one that keeps the oil in the sump area when braking. The baffle under the oil pump is there, the on on the 4th main cap not. Every time I was braking harder the oil light came on.

Next thing is oil consumption:
I had a horrible oil consumption of about 2qt on 100mls and it was smoking badly

Last thing: Top end is flooding with oil. When driving a little faster the oil was dripping out of the PCV systems air inlet on the rear of the right valve cover. It flooded the air cleaner at one time. I have to ad that the VAC is good and the PCV valve new. So this is the result of the valve covers filling with oil. I check the oil drain back at one point. Not blocked, I pured oil into it and heard it running down in the pan. I also could insert a small plastic tube.

Now on the last test drive the engine flooded the top again and started to sound like an old harvester. for be a bearing failure from the sound of it... we will see later..

So I removed the engine and started the disassembly:

here's what I have today (botomm still not disassembled, will be done next week..)
The pistons have a sign 030 on them so I guess the overbore of 0.030 was really done.
The lifters move easily and lifters, rockers and pushrods like new.

When I got the bottom end disassemled I will check the main and rod bearing clearances and check the crank journals. It depends if I need a crank crind or not the bearings will be ordered and installed accordingly. The crank will be balanced before of course.

Now the questions arise:

what parts should I install, considered I want a reliable street driver with some extra power?

what cam, lifter , rocker combination,
what oil pump?
what to do about the top and flooding. The only reason I see are wrong metering discs in the current lifters. They are responsible for the amount of oil pumped to the rockers.

this is what I would like to do:
mild roller cam, adjustable valvetrain with roller rockers, melling HV pump with screw on pickup.
I adressed Mondello in that matter but no answer yet.
Attached are some pics of the mess.

Your input is very much needed..;-)
regards from Germany

Harald

harascho

some pics of the mess

oldcutlass

You forgot to post your pics.

harascho

these are pics before I installed the engine

harascho

This is the 2nd removal.. easy with the bolts clean...;-)

Octania

interesting

not sure how you can fill the upper end with oil if the return passages are clean and open. Excess delivery?

harascho

Excess delivery, that's my guess. Only way to know is to disassemble a lifter and check the metering plate. But I do not know which hole diameter is wrong and which one is right..;-(

bluecab

What oil pump is in there?

oldcutlass

Did you try running it without the PCV hooked up? Did you do a compression or leak down test before disassembly?

Octania

The oil pump should not matter. It pumps some, and maintains pressure [or, in this case, not]. Excess production is routed back to the pump inlet.

Now that you mention it the clattering and low pressure may have been excess bearing clearances inundating the cylinders with oil. Then eating the bearings.

Incorrect lifters that allow/ force too much upstairs might do that. What is the correct hole size? Not sure but I do have an NOS or used .921 lifter I could try inspecting if need be.

50 miles a quart is some serious oil consumption.

Let's see them bearings. I say, they are probably pretty rough. Check the size stamps on all of them. Installing incorrect bearing is not unheard of.

harascho

Hi,

I am with a friend in the south of france right now where we assemble his '67 Toronado. We hope to have it running the comming weekend. After that, when I'm at home, I will finish the disassembly of my engine. I will carefully check and measure everything until I know what caused my problems. This time I try to be 100% sure what is going on when I install the engine.
I still need a valuable parts source and some advice on parts ( oil pump, lifters...)

I will post more info as soon as I've got the engine in pieces..


Harald

harascho

first info from "Rocket Racing & Performance"

"Unfortunately there are no .921 hydraulic roller lifters available, so a hydraulic flat tappet will be the only choice without getting your lifter bores bushed down to .842 and that is really expensive. I have a feeling the lifters you have are not metering oil correctly. We do have lifters that oil properly. I have seen your situation before and that's what it was."


Harald

harascho

Hi folks,

I came upon an oil pump pic with the pickup some 1.25" lower than the pump's bottom. I do not remember a pickup that low on my pump I will see that as soon as the bottom end is disassembled. I will write an update then.
Is there any way to identify the lifters? Only obvious things are diameter, length and if I dismantele them, the oil metering plate.
What about the cam? Will I be able to tell manufacturer and type of it?

Harald

bluecab

Hi Harald, There are .921 roller lifters available. Originally used in the 307. see an old thread here: https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...ers-again.html I also still have the first cam we did for the motor, it needs the base circle ground down. Are you saying that the oil pump pickup is too short? I think the Toro application with the deeper pan needs a different pump than some of the other Olds applications. Don't have the number on hand right now.

harascho

Hi David,

I didn't see that old thread until now. it seems we both had the same basic idea only you are 2 years ahead of me.
What parts did you finally install in your engine? I am very interested in the roller lifter and cam setup because that is exactly what was on my mind. Only real problem is to obtain the lifters with the correct oil metering to get rid of the top end oil problem.
What were your parts sources? Part No's? I hope you kept an eye on American built quality parts. I do not want any unknown chinese junk in my car (again ?).
We both seem to have the same baseline, a 1966 425 block bored .030 over the 39 deg CBA and the 0.921 lifters...
Did you testrun your engine? Is it already installed....

best regards from a very curious Harald..;-)

PS.: to the oil pump, we'll have to wait until I dropped the pan.. I will supply pics and details.. By the way do you have any pics of your engine built ? What rockerst did you use?

bluecab

Hi Harald,

We used Egge forged pistons, The roller lifters came from Mark (cutlassefi) as well as the Lunati cam. After all this time I have still not test run the engine and it is at the engine shop waiting for a carb. I just ordered a hard line for the pump to carb connection which is the last part I need to contribute. The shop may run it on a stand or send it to a dyno for run in. It's been a long process with plenty of interuptions but I hope to get it home and install it soon!

harascho

David, what cam profile did you choose? Any pics of the roller rockers?

harald

bluecab

PM sent

harascho

David,

are you sure that the hydraulic roller do not stick out too far when the valve is open? From the pic it looks as if the oil band is partly exposed ??

Harald

harascho

Disassembly:

got the lifters, cam, pan, oil pump disassembled, here's the status:

oil pump: pickup about 1,5" lower than pump body, pickup welded to pump
cam: no signs of wear ( how should that happen after the 400mls the engine ran in the car..?)

Is anybody able to identify the cam: CWC, FP28, I 5 on the gear side, a C within a dab of green paint and below a C1 on the distributor side?

lifters: they seem to perfect fit the block, no wear in the block area, but the lifters look worn on the base side and also on the outside block contact area...

removing of the pistons and checking the mains is for today. Pics follow

Harald

Chesrown 67 OAI

First off. A 66 toro D block 425 uses 842 lifters. So if he has 921 lifter D block 425 it will be from 67 toro and be 39°.
Your oil issues have all the symptoms of "chinesium" 921 lifters made for a 394 that have wrong metering which , coupled with a HV Oil Pump ( which is a NO NO for this motor) will cause you to pump all your oil upstairs and actually can empty your oil pan and lose pressure and starve bearings. So do you have 921 or 842 lifters.
Notwithstanding, some one may have left out the rear galley plug too. Sounds like someone unfamiliar with olds engines did this rebuild.

Oldsmaniac

Tweed I do not believe this is true...

Octania

Agreed. 66-67 Toro blocks should all have the Drill Spot and the .921 lifters on the so called 39 degree bank angle.

4040_66-To-425_CN6-1.jpg

Also, a HV pump does not FORCE more oil into the engine. It *can* supply more oil at any given RPM than its LV brethren, but the oil flow thru the engine is deterimined by the clearances and the oil viscosity. If you connect a giant oil pump the size of a car to your engine's oil pump accepting port, you do not magically pump that much oil into/ thru the engine. Capacity of the pump is independent of flow thru the engine, for any scenario where the pump capacity exceeds the flow requirement.

At any rpm above idle, any oil pump can [or, should be able to] supply far more oil than can/will flow thru the engine. The oil pump is a positive displacement pump on the same principle of the Rootes blower. HOWEVER, there is a crucial component right at the OP output - the relief valve. When the pressure rises to a certain level, because the OP output volume has exceeded that which can flow thru the engine's passages at that time... then the excess oil flow is allowed past the pressure regulator back to the inlet side of the OP gears.

bluecab

What is the "drill spot"?

Octania

Please refer to the now two well marked photos

also, post #9 &c from

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...25-id-etc.html

harascho

Ok here I am, the 425 is in pieces and I have to make some decisions...

here's the status as of today:

crank: did not have a regrind in the past, rod and main bearing surfaces are rough. mains are about 3.000", rods 2.500"
bearings: the "builder" of the engine did use new main and rod bearings on the rough journals of the crank. They do show wear after the 400mls the engine made until it died.
lifters: look worn either bad quality or not replaced at all
cam: looks ok , as new no signs of wear
oil pump: see pics for No.. is anybody able to tell the brand?
head gasket: Felpro 8171 PT-1 Strange stuff, some of the water channels are closed, others have just a small hole, see pics?
oil drain holes of the heads: perfect clean
wear on the skirts of 3 pistons, bore 0.30" rebore of the block seems to be on the very small side as my caliper tells: 4.144"
cam: CWC FP28, base circle 1.445", lobe 1.690, intake and exhaust are similar

so far so good, I have to start a shopping list.... for sure the crank and block will see an engine builder ..
Harald

harascho

more pics

harascho

some more

harascho

the last set of pics

Chesrown 67 OAI

I usually always agree with you , but in this case your argument is predicated on the assumption that the oiling system in the Oldsmobile cannot handle any more pressure or volume then what a low or std volume pump can supply. If this be the case, then why do they even make a hi volume pump? Ive seen enough olds engines (E blocks in particular) that have been damaged or ruined with the use of a hi volume pump. That being said, I believe we are in agreement that a LV pump is sufficient for these motors.
Also, on the issue of 66 D bolck 425 Toro- I must be wrong because ive always thought the 67 Toro D 425 was only 425 with 921 lifters ( and 39°)?

Oldsmaniac

Head gasket with restricted holes for water is normal. It looks like the oil pump pickup may not be correct for the deeper stock Toro oil pan. The pickup is pressed into the pump and can be changed. It seems like scoring has been taking place all over due to lack of oil?

Chesrown 67 OAI

Appears to be insufficient piston to wall clearance. And from what I can see, im bettin on these being j h nk chinesium lifters which is a big culprit. Those bearings were starved. Almost bet pan eas getting pumped dry, especially if that pickup wasnt om the floor of pan.
Just be glad you didnt ruin crank. I think Oldsmaniac went with Egge Machine 921 lifters and isnt having trouble. I bushed my new rwce motor to 842.. got no problems now.

Octania

Unfortunately the pickup is welded in place.
A useful measurement would be from oil pan gasket surface to bottom of oil pump pickup, compared to oil pan gasket surface to bottom of oil pan. The difference would tell how far above the pan bottom the pickup resides.


"Appears to be insufficient piston to wall clearance. "
======================
agreed. I was just not seeing all that much all that wrong until the galled pistons showed up. check the piston diameter vs. bore size. The piston diameter you cited seems too small by about 0.010" or 0.25mm. did you measure in the rings area or above the rings? It should be measured at the largest part of the skirt, near the bottom.



And from what I can see, im bettin on these being j h nk chinesium lifters which is a big culprit. Those bearings were starved.
========================
Intersting. I bow to your more extensive expertise here. Even though it seems patently unbelieveable that a high volume pump could fail to pump enough to feed the main bearings, regardless of how much oil passes thru the 16 lifters. Then again, the original symptom here was absurd oil consumption, right?
Too bad the victim is in Europe- pricey to send parts for fun- I would love to put 8 of those lifters and 8 factory ones in a block and spin the oil pump and see what differences come to light. Film it. Maybe even run the engine.

Almost bet pan was getting pumped dry, especially if that pickup wasnt om the floor of pan.
=================
Is there any way to verify that? The level of oil in the pan back when it was operating, that is?

Just be glad you didnt ruin crank.
===================
To me that looks like a barely used stock crank that could run with new std size bearings, or turn ten thou for a fresh new surface if you prefer.


I do have some proper GM .921 lifters on hand if we need to compare exact details of construction, hole sizes and whatnot. It is not unheard of for Chinesium parts to resemble the original at first glance, yet fail miserably in use due to the effect of all the little differences that they didn't quite get right.

You can hold the bottom of a lifter up against the side of another, using the side of one for a straightedge, and see if the bottom of the lifter is convex or concave or whatnot. Typically new ones are very slightly convex, and worn ones are anywhere from slightly concave to chipped and eaten and burned away as they ground thru the cam's lobe.


is all I can find real quick for bad lifter exam.

MDchanic

Is it my imagination, or are the cylinder walls slightly wavy near the top, as seen by the reflections?
They don't get like that in 400 miles, so I would question when it was bored, if another pair of eyeballs agrees with me.



- Eric

Chesrown 67 OAI

I have already made that lifter comparison in a running engine. With valve covers off, oil squirted almost 10 feet beyond the car fenders with the chineseum lifters in the motor and was also able to empty 6 qts of oil up into valve covers and valley.
Replaced those lifters with 40 year old GM lifters I had in a box on the shelf in my garage and immediately got the standard amount of oil coming thru pushrods and had much better and steady oil pressure. On disassembly of lifters the chineseum lifters had 4 holes about .080 each which was the culprit and allowed way too much oil to pass through the lifter. The OE GM lifters have NO Hole At all in them. They have the edge of the dusk shaved off ever so slightly to allow metering of oil. Notwithstanding, the chileseum steel is terrible and those lifters wear out in a very short time.

harascho

@ Octania: I will disassemble a lifter today. I also like the idea to send you 8 ones of that wonderful stuff. PM me the address and I'll do it.
I will go for a roller cam with roller rockers, I am in dialog with cutlassefi, he already helped bluecab who runs the same setup.

harald

bluecab

Well, I WISH I could say I'm running it. Looks like maybe sometime in the next few weeks...
Waiting on the Q-jet rebuild to be finished up; I had a really wrecked '66 and a pretty good '67 that the guy at the machine shop is making some sort of Frankencarb out of for me. Then I think it will go to Connecticut for a run on the dyno. I'll keep you posted.

harascho

Hi guys,
a few weeks passed by and with the help of cutlass EFI I collected most of the parts. We decided to build the engine with complete new parts. A new cam, lifters, full roller rockers, timing set, oil pump and more..... Thx again to Mark.

Wew also decided to bore the block again from the + 0.03 it already had to + 0.04 and have new, lighter pistons installed. When I did the cleaning of the block and head before I brought it to the engine shop I found more time bombs.... Some of the oil passages were full of thick black stuff, I found three expansion plugs from the very first overhaul in the block and it seems the engine never had antifreeze, which also acts as rust inhibitor, in the water jackets. Rust, sand and other hard stuff came out of all of the water passages. I had to use a pressure washer with a special rotating nozzel to get the stuff out of the block. It took me all saturday until clean water ran out of it.
After everything was clean and dry I addressed the oil return holes in the heads and opened them up to 10mm and did some massaging with rotating stones until the holes were smooth. It's actually a three-piece hole of different sizes and angles.... By the way I dound one good thing, the last working on the heads machined it for hardened exhaust valve seats..
I hope to have the baby back in the Toronado soooooon.

Harald

harascho

Some pics of the enlarged oil drain holes of the head

harascho

Hi folks...

it was a long way but the countless emails and phone calls I had with Mark (cutlassEFI) finally got me a nice running engine. Thnaks for your help Mark.

Now last sunday my wife and me istalled the engine. I had to think about a manual choke 'cause I blocked the heat crossover passage and removed the flap in the left manifold ( I removed the hole assembly and closed the hole of the rod)
As everything was connected, oil and water in the engine, ignition set I finally started the beast again.
Now the cam is broken in. Some small hassles when I first started .. the rockers just strived the inner oil baffle in the valve covers a tiny little bit.. just so that I heard it when the lifters were pumped up and it left some small scratches on the baffle.

I removed the covers and massaged the inner baffle, I could gain more that 5mm which was enough. Then the 30min break in time was without problems. I got a very healthy oil pressure and the new cam makes a rumble at idle I fell in love with…. That Toronado had a transition from family coupe to muscle car. Also the exhaust note is different, deeper, more aggressive. And that sound at idle, this slightly irregular note… wonderful…

Thanks again Mark.. that would not have been possible without your help…

Best regards from Germany


Harald