.921 hydraulic roller lifters (again!)
May 26th, 2012, 02:50 PM
#1
Mostly Gristle
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Wickford, RI
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.921 hydraulic roller lifters (again!)
I thought I had this figured out: buy the 307 hydraulic lifters from Mondello and all would be well.
I called and got jr. who says that I need wishbones ($100) and something else ($100) to make the roller lifters work in my 425 toronado motor.
At that point I tell him I'll get back to him as he really does not explain what this stuff is very well at all and I'm starting to wonder if this is a good choice after all.
What I'm trying to do is create a solid, powerful street motor that will live on hi test pump gas.
Should I be out scouring the boneyards for the other valve train components that will make the roller lifters work in the 425 block?
What is the maximum lift that will work with these lifters without exposing the oiling band?
I realize that hydraulic rollers are not popular with the racers out there, but if any of you have experience with this I'd sure appreciate some input..
David
I called and got jr. who says that I need wishbones ($100) and something else ($100) to make the roller lifters work in my 425 toronado motor.
At that point I tell him I'll get back to him as he really does not explain what this stuff is very well at all and I'm starting to wonder if this is a good choice after all.
What I'm trying to do is create a solid, powerful street motor that will live on hi test pump gas.
Should I be out scouring the boneyards for the other valve train components that will make the roller lifters work in the 425 block?
What is the maximum lift that will work with these lifters without exposing the oiling band?
I realize that hydraulic rollers are not popular with the racers out there, but if any of you have experience with this I'd sure appreciate some input..
David
May 27th, 2012, 10:48 AM
#2
Mostly Gristle
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Or is it just a stupid idea?
I thought hydraulic rollers would be a good idea in terms of reliability and street performance.
I think they are more modern and result in less friction.
I have a chebby 350 in my work truck that has 225k hard miles with rollers and it's never been apart.
Somebody out there in the Olds universe must have tried this or at least have an opinion yay or nay.
TIA,
David
I think they are more modern and result in less friction.
I have a chebby 350 in my work truck that has 225k hard miles with rollers and it's never been apart.
Somebody out there in the Olds universe must have tried this or at least have an opinion yay or nay.
TIA,
David
May 27th, 2012, 11:35 AM
#3
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I thought hydraulic rollers would be a good idea in terms of reliability and street performance.
I think they are more modern and result in less friction.
I have a chebby 350 in my work truck that has 225k hard miles with rollers and it's never been apart.
Somebody out there in the Olds universe must have tried this or at least have an opinion yay or nay.
TIA,
David
I think they are more modern and result in less friction.
I have a chebby 350 in my work truck that has 225k hard miles with rollers and it's never been apart.
Somebody out there in the Olds universe must have tried this or at least have an opinion yay or nay.
TIA,
David
If its not a 39 deg block and it's not numbers matching then I'm wondering why you're going that route.
Why not just get a 455 block and go from there. You said you wanted a powerful street motor able to run on pump gas. There are dozens of 455 builds on here that'll give you just that.
If its a 45 degree block you can't get a roller core for it anyway. If its a 39 and you want to keep it then just bush it to .842 and be done with it. If you bush it the right way, with a BHJ fixture, then you've just made it better automatically.
Jmo
Last edited by cutlassefi; May 27th, 2012 at 01:20 PM.
May 27th, 2012, 11:46 AM
#4
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roller cam
I have a set of roller lifters, wishbones and retainer tin out of a 307.
I really don't know if they will work in your aplication, but you can make me an offer. I can take measurements for you and snap off some photos.
I really don't know if they will work in your aplication, but you can make me an offer. I can take measurements for you and snap off some photos.
May 27th, 2012, 08:10 PM
#5
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May 28th, 2012, 06:02 AM
#6
Mostly Gristle
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The block in question
Is a '66 Toronado.
It's at the machine shop, been cleaned and pressure tested, bored .030 over with a torque plate, decked .015.
I will reuse the forged rank which needed a minor cleanup cut.
At this point what is holding the build up is the valve train and pistons.
My understanding at this point is that the 307 lifters will fit, but that the oil band MAY be exposed if the cam lift is too high.
Anybody know how much lift is too much in this setup?
I have also read that the cam will need a thrust button to keep it from trying to walk out of the block, as well as the wishbones and retainers to keep the lifters in position.
Is that correct?
Thanks for the responses guys. This is my first Olds build and I'm trying to do it once and right rather than have to take it apart and fix it.
It's at the machine shop, been cleaned and pressure tested, bored .030 over with a torque plate, decked .015.
I will reuse the forged rank which needed a minor cleanup cut.
At this point what is holding the build up is the valve train and pistons.
My understanding at this point is that the 307 lifters will fit, but that the oil band MAY be exposed if the cam lift is too high.
Anybody know how much lift is too much in this setup?
I have also read that the cam will need a thrust button to keep it from trying to walk out of the block, as well as the wishbones and retainers to keep the lifters in position.
Is that correct?
Thanks for the responses guys. This is my first Olds build and I'm trying to do it once and right rather than have to take it apart and fix it.
May 28th, 2012, 06:49 AM
#7
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O.k so it's a 39 degree block. That's obviously good.
As you know I offer roller grinds but whatever you do see if the grinder can grind more off the base circle so you can still use a higher lift lobe. The amount of hardness on that part isn't nearly as critical as on the nose. Not sure how much lift the stock lifter will go without uncovering the hole but you can always use a higher ratio rocker to get the added lift as well.
Yes on that block you'll need a thrust button. And I hope they honed it with a torque plate and didn't bore it with one.
As you know I offer roller grinds but whatever you do see if the grinder can grind more off the base circle so you can still use a higher lift lobe. The amount of hardness on that part isn't nearly as critical as on the nose. Not sure how much lift the stock lifter will go without uncovering the hole but you can always use a higher ratio rocker to get the added lift as well.
Yes on that block you'll need a thrust button. And I hope they honed it with a torque plate and didn't bore it with one.
May 28th, 2012, 09:58 AM
#8
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O.k so it's a 39 degree block. That's obviously good.
As you know I offer roller grinds but whatever you do see if the grinder can grind more off the base circle so you can still use a higher lift lobe. The amount of hardness on that part isn't nearly as critical as on the nose. Not sure how much lift the stock lifter will go without uncovering the hole but you can always use a higher ratio rocker to get the added lift as well.
Yes on that block you'll need a thrust button. And I hope they honed it with a torque plate and didn't bore it with one.
As you know I offer roller grinds but whatever you do see if the grinder can grind more off the base circle so you can still use a higher lift lobe. The amount of hardness on that part isn't nearly as critical as on the nose. Not sure how much lift the stock lifter will go without uncovering the hole but you can always use a higher ratio rocker to get the added lift as well.
Yes on that block you'll need a thrust button. And I hope they honed it with a torque plate and didn't bore it with one.
May 28th, 2012, 02:52 PM
#9
Mostly Gristle
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Looks like the hydraulic rollers out of a '86 307 are what I need.
Sealed power HT 2104, $9. each at the local parts store.
I think I'll pick some up and do a mockup with the stock cam to check the height of the oil band and to make sure they actually are .921 as the sealed power site does not actually list the diameter.
As for as the torque plate use goes, I don't know. The shop is very reputable and builds many applications for auto, marine, euro stuff etc. so I trust them to use their tools correctly.
I do know that they will not finish the hone on the block until they have pistons in hand, which is my next thing to find for the build.
Sealed power HT 2104, $9. each at the local parts store.
I think I'll pick some up and do a mockup with the stock cam to check the height of the oil band and to make sure they actually are .921 as the sealed power site does not actually list the diameter.
As for as the torque plate use goes, I don't know. The shop is very reputable and builds many applications for auto, marine, euro stuff etc. so I trust them to use their tools correctly.
I do know that they will not finish the hone on the block until they have pistons in hand, which is my next thing to find for the build.
May 28th, 2012, 08:36 PM
#10
Cast pistons are about the only ones your going to find.
"Canter or Egge" will be the place to find the cast pistons.
Anything else will be custom or old stock someone wants to sell.
Good luck to your build.
Gene
"Canter or Egge" will be the place to find the cast pistons.
Anything else will be custom or old stock someone wants to sell.
Good luck to your build.
Gene
May 29th, 2012, 08:25 AM
#12
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If all you're looking for is a "solid, powerful street" engine than why not use oem style cam and lifter components ? Stock, your engine was rated at 385 h.p. and the 425's were known to be reliable. It just seems like you're going to a lot of work to achieve what you want. I'm going to be building an early 425 in the future and will be going thru the same process, and I'm just curious why you're going in the direction you are.
May 29th, 2012, 02:04 PM
#13
Mostly Gristle
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To me the benefits are:
No 2000rpm for 20 min break in
Slightly greater reliability than standard hydraulic flat tappets
Ability to handle faster ramp profiles
Less friction.
If I can get a set of stock hydraulic rollers to work without modification the only drawback I can see is that they cost more and that I will need to have custom length pushrods fitted.
If it gets to be too much of a hassle, then I'll just put hydraulic flat tappets in there and move on.
No 2000rpm for 20 min break in
Slightly greater reliability than standard hydraulic flat tappets
Ability to handle faster ramp profiles
Less friction.
If I can get a set of stock hydraulic rollers to work without modification the only drawback I can see is that they cost more and that I will need to have custom length pushrods fitted.
If it gets to be too much of a hassle, then I'll just put hydraulic flat tappets in there and move on.
May 29th, 2012, 05:15 PM
#14
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Location: Central Fl
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To me the benefits are:
No 2000rpm for 20 min break in
Slightly greater reliability than standard hydraulic flat tappets
Ability to handle faster ramp profiles
Less friction.
If I can get a set of stock hydraulic rollers to work without modification the only drawback I can see is that they cost more and that I will need to have custom length pushrods fitted.
If it gets to be too much of a hassle, then I'll just put hydraulic flat tappets in there and move on.
No 2000rpm for 20 min break in
Slightly greater reliability than standard hydraulic flat tappets
Ability to handle faster ramp profiles
Less friction.
If I can get a set of stock hydraulic rollers to work without modification the only drawback I can see is that they cost more and that I will need to have custom length pushrods fitted.
If it gets to be too much of a hassle, then I'll just put hydraulic flat tappets in there and move on.
Plus with roller lifters if you ever change the cam you can reuse the lifters.
Do the roller.
Jmo.
June 17th, 2012, 10:45 PM
#15
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Location: Orlando, FL
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To me the benefits are:
No 2000rpm for 20 min break in
Slightly greater reliability than standard hydraulic flat tappets
Ability to handle faster ramp profiles
Less friction.
If I can get a set of stock hydraulic rollers to work without modification the only drawback I can see is that they cost more and that I will need to have custom length pushrods fitted.
If it gets to be too much of a hassle, then I'll just put hydraulic flat tappets in there and move on.
No 2000rpm for 20 min break in
Slightly greater reliability than standard hydraulic flat tappets
Ability to handle faster ramp profiles
Less friction.
If I can get a set of stock hydraulic rollers to work without modification the only drawback I can see is that they cost more and that I will need to have custom length pushrods fitted.
If it gets to be too much of a hassle, then I'll just put hydraulic flat tappets in there and move on.
Get some forged custom made pistons.
I'm sure Bill will be happy to custom grind a cam for ya and have all the rockers and valvetrain parts you'll need.
Do iit right and it will live.
January 12th, 2013, 05:20 AM
#17
Mostly Gristle
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Wickford, RI
Posts: 409
Still waiting to get some lifters and trial fit them. I will also need to find the tin that holds them in place which will need to come from a 307 of late 80's vintage.
In the meantime I built a second SBC for my 1965 wood boat and took off to Florida for the winter, so not much is getting done on the Toro.
In the meantime I built a second SBC for my 1965 wood boat and took off to Florida for the winter, so not much is getting done on the Toro.
January 12th, 2013, 05:36 AM
#18
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What year 425 is it? Numbers matching?
If its not a 39 deg block and it's not numbers matching then I'm wondering why you're going that route.
Why not just get a 455 block and go from there. You said you wanted a powerful street motor able to run on pump gas. There are dozens of 455 builds on here that'll give you just that.
If its a 45 degree block you can't get a roller core for it anyway. If its a 39 and you want to keep it then just bush it to .842 and be done with it. If you bush it the right way, with a BHJ fixture, then you've just made it better automatically.
Jmo
If its not a 39 deg block and it's not numbers matching then I'm wondering why you're going that route.
Why not just get a 455 block and go from there. You said you wanted a powerful street motor able to run on pump gas. There are dozens of 455 builds on here that'll give you just that.
If its a 45 degree block you can't get a roller core for it anyway. If its a 39 and you want to keep it then just bush it to .842 and be done with it. If you bush it the right way, with a BHJ fixture, then you've just made it better automatically.
Jmo
Why do you say "Wrong" ??? This is a very successful option!!
January 12th, 2013, 09:46 AM
#19
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Still waiting to get some lifters and trial fit them. I will also need to find the tin that holds them in place which will need to come from a 307 of late 80's vintage.
In the meantime I built a second SBC for my 1965 wood boat and took off to Florida for the winter, so not much is getting done on the Toro.
In the meantime I built a second SBC for my 1965 wood boat and took off to Florida for the winter, so not much is getting done on the Toro.
But you'll still need to trial fit everything as mentioned. The lifter bosses on a 425 are a bit shorter than on a 307 or DX block so you may have to modify the spider in order to hold the wishbones correctly.
January 13th, 2013, 06:58 AM
#20
Mostly Gristle
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And it's a roller? Great! PM me for the address of my engine guy.
I have not found the spider and wishbones yet either, is it available NOS?
I have not found the spider and wishbones yet either, is it available NOS?
Last edited by bluecab; January 13th, 2013 at 06:59 AM. Reason: clarity
January 15th, 2013, 04:11 PM
#21
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Mark, are these lifters using the same body as the stock lifters and just re-valving them? Or are they a new design?
What is the the new valving going to do? Prevent pump up? What RPM are they good for?
What are they designed for? Replacement 307 and diesel lifters?
How much will they be?
What is the the new valving going to do? Prevent pump up? What RPM are they good for?
What are they designed for? Replacement 307 and diesel lifters?
How much will they be?
January 15th, 2013, 05:10 PM
#22
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Mark, are these lifters using the same body as the stock lifters Yes and just re-valving them? Yes Or are they a new design? Not to my knowledge.
What is the the new valving going to do? Prevent pump up? What RPM are they good for? Probably 7000, they'll handle 150+ on the seat and 450 open.
What are they designed for? Replacement 307 and diesel lifters? Yes
How much will they be? About $250.00 a set I think
What is the the new valving going to do? Prevent pump up? What RPM are they good for? Probably 7000, they'll handle 150+ on the seat and 450 open.
What are they designed for? Replacement 307 and diesel lifters? Yes
How much will they be? About $250.00 a set I think
February 8th, 2013, 04:54 PM
#26
Mostly Gristle
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I have ordered a set of these lifters and when they get to the engine shop they will be mocked up with the custom Lunati cam that Mark has had ground for me.
Let's hope it all lines up.
Here's to bringing a 47 year old motor into the 21st century!
Thanks Mark!
Let's hope it all lines up.
Here's to bringing a 47 year old motor into the 21st century!
Thanks Mark!
February 24th, 2013, 08:35 AM
#27
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I had to go back and re-read where that came from.
Evidently what I meant was, "changing a 39 degree 66-67 TORO block to 0.842 inch diameter lifters would not be considered an improvement" because of the smaller lifter diameter. I could be wrong here, and am open to enlightenment, but pretty sure the best combination is widely regarded as 0.921 lifters on the 39 degree CBA. Which is the stock 66-67 Toro and 66-67 E400 setup.
So, the benefit of extensive and expensive work to convert to 0.842 inch lifter bores would be... greater roller lifter selection?
February 25th, 2013, 05:37 AM
#29
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I had to go back and re-read where that came from.
I could be wrong here, and am open to enlightenment, but pretty sure the best combination is widely regarded as 0.921 lifters on the 39 degree CBA. Which is the stock 66-67 Toro and 66-67 E400 setup. Not necessarily.
So, the benefit of extensive and expensive work to convert to 0.842 inch lifter bores would be... greater roller lifter selection?
I could be wrong here, and am open to enlightenment, but pretty sure the best combination is widely regarded as 0.921 lifters on the 39 degree CBA. Which is the stock 66-67 Toro and 66-67 E400 setup. Not necessarily.
So, the benefit of extensive and expensive work to convert to 0.842 inch lifter bores would be... greater roller lifter selection?
With the newly available .921 lifter some of the benefits of using an aftermarket .842 have been diminished.
However, the .921 and .842 have the same roller size, .700, so there's no benefit to using a larger diameter lifter there.
The metal spider piece doesn't fit as well in the older 425 blocks as it does in the diesels or 307 because the 425 has shorter lifter bosses. You'll have to modify it in some way.
And when you use a BHJ Lifter Tru fixture as in bushing the bores from .921 to .842, you automatically "blueprint" the lifter bores, never a bad thing.
And again because the lifter wheel diameter is the same on both, the same cam profiles would normally be used as well.
Hope this helps.
Last edited by cutlassefi; February 25th, 2013 at 01:32 PM.
February 26th, 2013, 05:47 PM
#30
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I don't mean to interrupt but will any of the .921 lifters being discussed work in the old J2 371 motor.? The notorious Olds clack in the 50,s motors can be nursed along but never quite goes away and 57 cams are soft. I realize the retaining apparatus would be a big deal on the rollers but how about the laster stock hydraulic flat tappets?
Pat
Pat
February 28th, 2013, 08:51 AM
#31
Mostly Gristle
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.921 liters for J2
Pat,
I'm sure folks that are more knowledgeable will chime in.
What type of lifters does that motor have stock?
If they are .921 and hydraulic the issue seems to be whether the oil feed will line up on a roller lifter.
In my 425 Toro the cam has come in, but we are waiting for the lifters to come in to see how it all lines up.
Tell us more about that J2 motor..
I'm sure folks that are more knowledgeable will chime in.
What type of lifters does that motor have stock?
If they are .921 and hydraulic the issue seems to be whether the oil feed will line up on a roller lifter.
In my 425 Toro the cam has come in, but we are waiting for the lifters to come in to see how it all lines up.
Tell us more about that J2 motor..
March 1st, 2013, 03:51 PM
#33
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Location: Kansas City, Mo.
Posts: 38
.921 lifters
Thanks for your interest. The old Olds motor is ported like a small block Chevy but uses rocker shafts. The shafts are held down by long head bolts which makes minor valve train work tricky because you lose torque on the head if you pull a shaft off. I had an amazing machinist named Jim Shelton now retired who helped me build my J2 motor. He spent most of 4 days porting the heads and matching the manifold runners. We ended up with 1.94 and 1.6 Chevy valves with lash caps shimmed to achieve proper length. The valve springs are a mild version from Crane meant for a Big Block Chevy. The cam is a reground ,58 of 268 duration. I have reground rockers from Egge. We used Smith,s adjustable pushrods. The lifters are Iskenderian hydraulic flat tappet that were specially bench tested for leakdown by Isky. They did the testing because I had noise. It turned out that the regrind on the rockers took enough off that they nicked the retainers. Jim beveled the valve retainers. This mill has pulled my 98 from KC to Seattle several times. But I still have a little lifter clack and always have wondered if later lifters are quieter.
April 25th, 2013, 05:25 AM
#34
Mostly Gristle
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Wickford, RI
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.921 roller lifter update
Been a while since I updated this thread.
With the help of cutlassefi I got a set of lifters and a Lunati custom cam.
Once the setup was mocked up at the machine shop it became clear that the cam needs to have a little less base circle than normal to keep the oil band down in the bore where it belongs.
There is another cam on the way and when we are done we should have a repeatable formula for adapting .921 hydraulic roller lifters and cams to the early 425.
With the help of cutlassefi I got a set of lifters and a Lunati custom cam.
Once the setup was mocked up at the machine shop it became clear that the cam needs to have a little less base circle than normal to keep the oil band down in the bore where it belongs.
There is another cam on the way and when we are done we should have a repeatable formula for adapting .921 hydraulic roller lifters and cams to the early 425.
April 25th, 2013, 06:01 AM
#35
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Location: Dover, Ohio
Posts: 1,204
Been a while since I updated this thread.
With the help of cutlassefi I got a set of lifters and a Lunati custom cam.
Once the setup was mocked up at the machine shop it became clear that the cam needs to have a little less base circle than normal to keep the oil band down in the bore where it belongs.
There is another cam on the way and when we are done we should have a repeatable formula for adapting .921 hydraulic roller lifters and cams to the early 425.
With the help of cutlassefi I got a set of lifters and a Lunati custom cam.
Once the setup was mocked up at the machine shop it became clear that the cam needs to have a little less base circle than normal to keep the oil band down in the bore where it belongs.
There is another cam on the way and when we are done we should have a repeatable formula for adapting .921 hydraulic roller lifters and cams to the early 425.
T.
August 10th, 2013, 11:32 AM
#37
Mostly Gristle
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Wickford, RI
Posts: 409
.921 Hydraulics
I posted in the WTB section, but thought I'd post here as well.
The second camshaft has been checked with the .921 roller hydraulic lifters and it all looks good.
What I need is the lifter retaining hardware from a 307 olds 1985-1990.
If anybody here has a junk motor laying around or knows where I can find one, please shoot me a pm.
It does not appear that these parts are being made anymore..
The second camshaft has been checked with the .921 roller hydraulic lifters and it all looks good.
What I need is the lifter retaining hardware from a 307 olds 1985-1990.
If anybody here has a junk motor laying around or knows where I can find one, please shoot me a pm.
It does not appear that these parts are being made anymore..
September 13th, 2021, 09:33 PM
#39
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Posts: 17
.921 lifters max lift
What's the max lift a .921 roller lifter can take in a diesel block? I have an old set of Perfect Circles sitting in the box and am wondering if I can even use them...Is .700" lift with reasonably short duration (235-245 @ .050) doable?
QUOTE=cutlassefi;496279]I will be carrying a new .921 lifter with better valving in about 2 weeks. It'll take 150+ on the seat and well over 400 open with no problems.
But you'll still need to trial fit everything as mentioned. The lifter bosses on a 425 are a bit shorter than on a 307 or DX block so you may have to modify the spider in order to hold the wishbones correctly.[/QUOTE]
QUOTE=cutlassefi;496279]I will be carrying a new .921 lifter with better valving in about 2 weeks. It'll take 150+ on the seat and well over 400 open with no problems.
But you'll still need to trial fit everything as mentioned. The lifter bosses on a 425 are a bit shorter than on a 307 or DX block so you may have to modify the spider in order to hold the wishbones correctly.[/QUOTE]
