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Real or clone? 1969 Oldsmobile 442 Hurst/Olds - 1 of 906!
What do you guys this about this car? Is this a restored 69 Hurst Olds or does it look like a well done clone? Few things off like the "Period Correct 455C.I. V8 Engine", shifter ****, radio, steering wheel, valve covers, no a/c? I am seeing a few others listed for $85k+ in worse condition so wondering what the deal is? All those pictures and no cowl tags or full vin?
Assuming the VIN and trim tag are on the car and original to it, the "H/OCA Letter Stating Authenticity from Judy Badgley" makes it legitimate.
There are certainly details that are not "correct" including inside of fenders painted, air cleaner bowl color, incorrect crankcase ventilation system, hot air riser and stove missing, the seeming lack of a windshield washer system besides the pump on the motor, hose clamps, wiring on driver's side fender, missing upper radiator hose support...
Putting the valve covers on incorrectly is the least of the problems. And swapping out the incorrect M/C is easy. Correct alternator, $1000. Finding the correct D heads and H/O-unique intake manifold? Priceless. No, really, you can't find the intake at any price.
By the way, where the heck is that PCV valve hose going? And a heater control valve on a non-A/C car??? What is THAT connected to? Run, don't walk, away.
The vin is miswritten on the site and doesn't correspond to a body style. I saw the 1970 wheel and the shifter.
This strikes me as a legit car with a nice, but incorrect, restoration. Like Joe says, some parts are not available to put it right. I think it is very overpriced.
I would like to see pictures of vin tag, cowl tag, engine castings and stampings, but those aren't included usually.
Like Joe says, some parts are not available to put it right. I think it is very overpriced.
It will take about $25K to make that an $80K car. Unfortunately the 69 H/Os just don't get the love. Nice ones struggle to reach $90K in a world where people routinely pay well into six figures for a bloated 70 W30 convertible with AT, PB, A/C, wimpy cam, and every possible power-sapping option added during the "restoration".
Thanks for the replies. The 69 H/O listings always catch my attention because they don't pop up very often. I wouldn't spend $80k on any car but that's all relative to how much cash you have to blow.
It is a nice looking HO if it is truly Judy authenticated.
with all the non correct expensive pieces missing, incorrectly installed pieces, it is overpriced for sure. Very clean and sharp but not 80k sharp. Only a non knowing buyer would pay that price, which could very well happen thes days. I see total cutlass clones, not original HOs with some parts missing going for 30k…crazy
It is a nice looking HO if it is truly Judy authenticated.
with all the non correct expensive pieces missing, incorrectly installed pieces, it is overpriced for sure. Very clean and sharp but not 80k sharp. Only a non knowing buyer would pay that price, which could very well happen thes days. I see total cutlass clones, not original HOs with some parts missing going for 30k…crazy
Yeah, not sure what it's all about exactly but some of the asking prices I've been seeing lately are insane. The Chevelles selling at Barrett Jackson for $160k isn't helping either. Everyone thinks their garage built hot rod is now worth $60k minimum.
I also saw that clone for 30k and I'd personally love to own that car and enjoy it.
Last edited by yeahbuddy; November 29th, 2021 at 06:02 PM.
This one, of which I spoke in another thread, went for 46k in mediocre shape and is an obvious rebody and attempted fake as the body came from Fremont.
This one, of which I spoke in another thread, went for 46k in mediocre shape and is an obvious rebody and attempted fake as the body came from Fremont.
So what is the true value of an authentic one in a non inflated market? 60k?
So what is the true value of an authentic one in a non inflated market? 60k?
There's no such thing as a "non-inflated market". There's just the value today. Whether you consider that to be "inflated" or not is irrelevant. And one auction sale to one buyer with more money than brains does not provide a large enough sample size to draw any "value" conclusions. Sale prices for nice 1969 H/Os have run in the $75K-90K range for the last few years. It's rare for one to break six figures.
There's no such thing as a "non-inflated market". There's just the value today. Whether you consider that to be "inflated" or not is irrelevant. And one auction sale to one buyer with more money than brains does not provide a large enough sample size to draw any "value" conclusions. Sale prices for nice 1969 H/Os have run in the $75K-90K range for the last few years. It's rare for one to break six figures.
There's no such thing as a "non-inflated market". There's just the value today. Whether you consider that to be "inflated" or not is irrelevant. And one auction sale to one buyer with more money than brains does not provide a large enough sample size to draw any "value" conclusions. Sale prices for nice 1969 H/Os have run in the $75K-90K range for the last few years. It's rare for one to break six figures.
I get what you are saying. I guess was just wondering with cars and homes hitting historic prices this last year, if the 69 H/O went up as well. So far I only saw 3 current listings and they were for $80k, $98k, and $99k. I don't remember ever seeing them that high before this last year.
Anyway, speaking of more money than brains. A couple 69 H/O's and a 72 Hurst Pace Car are going for sale in Jan at the Mecum auction. That would be fun to watch.
I like the car also, but the front gold stripe really bothers me, not to mention how bad the hood scoop fits. Shouldn't the black pin stripe run along the bulge and end at the corner of the brow but in a straight line?
I like the car also, but the front gold stripe really bothers me, not to mention how bad the hood scoop fits. Shouldn't the black pin stripe run along the bulge and end at the corner of the brow but in a straight line?
On my hood the center stripe comes up the sides of the hood bulges just a bit. It fans out in the rear of the stripe to meet the edge of the scoop stripe, and it appears they did that fan tape-off by hand. But yeah, that scoop doesn't fit worth a flip. The hood stripe comes straight down in the front and "splits" the eyebrow chrome. The black inside the scoops on this car seem weird. On my car, they painted the inside of the scoop area black, but it ended just at the front where the front edge of the scoop opening was left white. This one either had a sloppy tape job or it's actually warped. Can't really tell. Looks like ***, IMO.
Here's some crude-*** drawings I made years ago when I was "documenting" where the stripes landed on my car. Keep in mind, I'm sure there was a paint dimension sheet/plan somewhere, but all the finished cars were slightly different from what I've seen. Use these measurements as a guideline. These drawings were for my car, Demmer #43. Yours may vary. For example, I have 1-7/8" stripe on the driver side, and 2" on the passenger side. Humans taping off for stripes, and they were in a hurry. So there's that. Plus, I don't know when they gave up taping off the silver perimeter stripe around the grilles/headlight bezels. Mine got taped off so I have silver edging, but later cars came all black.
I get what you are saying. I guess was just wondering with cars and homes hitting historic prices this last year, if the 69 H/O went up as well. So far I only saw 3 current listings and they were for $80k, $98k, and $99k. I don't remember ever seeing them that high before this last year.
Anyway, speaking of more money than brains. A couple 69 H/O's and a 72 Hurst Pace Car are going for sale in Jan at the Mecum auction. That would be fun to watch.
I like the car also, but the front gold stripe really bothers me, not to mention how bad the hood scoop fits. Shouldn't the black pin stripe run along the bulge and end at the corner of the brow but in a straight line?
Good eye on both points. My goodness do your damn homework. That stripe is laughable. Is there one single straight true line? The scoop does look off too.
Good eye on both points. My goodness do your damn homework. That stripe is laughable. Is there one single straight true line? The scoop does look off too.
Look at it from this angle. I wonder if this scoop is not original to the car, maybe it's an earlier repo. I know the one I just did isn't perfect, but it looks and fits better than this one.
Last edited by tt455; December 1st, 2021 at 03:37 PM.
Does anyone have first hand knowledge as to the condition and originality of the Joe Spagnoli '69 Hurst at Mecum (link below)? I would like to bid on this vehicle even though I HATE buying at Mecum/BJ, and am prepared to go six figures+. Unfortunately, I cannot attend the auction due to prior commitments and quite frankly I fall into the more money than brains category when it comes to H/O's. However, I know there is a ton of great knowledge (brains) on this forum and maybe somebody could help me bid with confidence (or not bid). Many thanks in advance!
Does anyone have first hand knowledge as to the condition and originality of the Joe Spagnoli '69 Hurst at Mecum (link below)? I would like to bid on this vehicle even though I HATE buying at Mecum/BJ, and am prepared to go six figures+. Unfortunately, I cannot attend the auction due to prior commitments and quite frankly I fall into the more money than brains category when it comes to H/O's. However, I know there is a ton of great knowledge (brains) on this forum and maybe somebody could help me bid with confidence (or not bid). Many thanks in advance!
Before I submit my opinion, I want to say one more thing about the particular car in the OP's ad- there's a tape on the rear end of "SE". Not sure what that's about if it's advertising the rear end code. You either got SH (3.23), SJ (3.42), or SL (3.91) on the 69 H/O. This one is a non-air car, so it should have 3.42 or 3.91. Air cars all got the SH with 3.23.
Bid all you like, but I'd hesitate for ANY 69 H/O I've seen for sale to be pushed over the 100K mark at the moment. That is just plain stupid in today's market, IMO.
IIRC, the last time I saw the car was several years ago and it looked nice, although I wouldn't classify it as a gold standard to judge by. I can't recall if he's had other 69s, so it may not even be the one I saw. They all tend to look similar after a while. It was repainted, it was an air car, so 3.23 out back. Hence, the best chance of it being the original drivetrain, if this one is that car I did see. But I don't know. Nice high end cruiser I imagine. It's all in what you like, I guess. I have no idea if he has changed/fixed anything or what, but I recall the stripes were incorrectly painted back on when the car got a repaint, however many years ago that was. Originally, the cars had the upper fender/door/wheel well trim on the car, they taped that off, and then painted the gold stripes so they butted up next to that trim. I've seen one original paint car with the stripe fogged up toward the fender trim, not even covering it all the way in one spot. Guess they sneezed or held the paint gun at a higher angle or something and nobody caught it.
Overspray was the theme of the day as well. Nearly all the original paint cars I've seen had gold mist puffed on parts of the car underneath and in the door jambs or even on the body where the tape job was sub-par or something. Quality was job 1 for Ford, not GM and Demmer, apparently. Most cars redone have the stripes painted on where the upper fender trim covers up part of the stripe, and wheel well trim was off the car where they extend the stripe to the edge of the wheel well. It looks neater and better that way, but is production-incorrect. Not that it's a deal breaker for sure, but that's one common stripe mistake that happens when people re-paint their 69 H/Os trying to make it look like it rolled out of Demmer's conversion shop.
My opinion? It's a worthy vehicle, but definitely not 6 figures worthy. So keep some money in your account if you want to bid on this. Just because Joe Spags owns it, doesn't automatically make it flawless or "factory-correct". He does seem to love Oldsmobiles, though.
What do you guys this about this car? Is this a restored 69 Hurst Olds or does it look like a well done clone? Few things off like the "Period Correct 455C.I. V8 Engine", shifter ****, radio, steering wheel, valve covers, no a/c? I am seeing a few others listed for $85k+ in worse condition so wondering what the deal is? All those pictures and no cowl tags or full vin?
Got aways to go to convince me it is a real 1969 HO...
Other things I will add as questionable(sorry if I duplicated some comments but)
1. Wrong air cleaner base with holes for crankcase venting. Venting is all wrong as mentioned before..
2. Did not see photos of:
a. Cowl tag Black Bucket seats, Lansing car, when made in '69.. March - May '69
b. VIN
c. Trans tag with "OH" in it
d. Block casting
e. Intake casting and PVC port...
Did I miss them???
3. Ram Air Shroud 180 degrees out of alignment
4. Incorrect fuel pump and fuel line to carb.
5. No Ralley Pack but yes I know it was optional..
6. Does it show up on any list in Hurst Olds Club of America records???
Does anyone have first hand knowledge as to the condition and originality of the Joe Spagnoli '69 Hurst at Mecum (link below)? I would like to bid on this vehicle even though I HATE buying at Mecum/BJ, and am prepared to go six figures+. Unfortunately, I cannot attend the auction due to prior commitments and quite frankly I fall into the more money than brains category when it comes to H/O's. However, I know there is a ton of great knowledge (brains) on this forum and maybe somebody could help me bid with confidence (or not bid). Many thanks in advance!
I put full tubular UMI and QA1 suspension, EFI, 18" wheels with Nitto tires, and a whole bunch of other stuff on a 68 CS Holiday Sedan so I think I fall into the money>brains category as well.
Before I submit my opinion, I want to say one more thing about the particular car in the OP's ad- there's a tape on the rear end of "SE". Not sure what that's about if it's advertising the rear end code. You either got SH (3.23), SJ (3.42), or SL (3.91) on the 69 H/O. This one is a non-air car, so it should have 3.42 or 3.91. Air cars all got the SH with 3.23.
Bid all you like, but I'd hesitate for ANY 69 H/O I've seen for sale to be pushed over the 100K mark at the moment. That is just plain stupid in today's market, IMO.
IIRC, the last time I saw the car was several years ago and it looked nice, although I wouldn't classify it as a gold standard to judge by. I can't recall if he's had other 69s, so it may not even be the one I saw. They all tend to look similar after a while. It was repainted, it was an air car, so 3.23 out back. Hence, the best chance of it being the original drivetrain, if this one is that car I did see. But I don't know. Nice high end cruiser I imagine. It's all in what you like, I guess. I have no idea if he has changed/fixed anything or what, but I recall the stripes were incorrectly painted back on when the car got a repaint, however many years ago that was. Originally, the cars had the upper fender/door/wheel well trim on the car, they taped that off, and then painted the gold stripes so they butted up next to that trim. I've seen one original paint car with the stripe fogged up toward the fender trim, not even covering it all the way in one spot. Guess they sneezed or held the paint gun at a higher angle or something and nobody caught it.
Overspray was the theme of the day as well. Nearly all the original paint cars I've seen had gold mist puffed on parts of the car underneath and in the door jambs or even on the body where the tape job was sub-par or something. Quality was job 1 for Ford, not GM and Demmer, apparently. Most cars redone have the stripes painted on where the upper fender trim covers up part of the stripe, and wheel well trim was off the car where they extend the stripe to the edge of the wheel well. It looks neater and better that way, but is production-incorrect. Not that it's a deal breaker for sure, but that's one common stripe mistake that happens when people re-paint their 69 H/Os trying to make it look like it rolled out of Demmer's conversion shop.
My opinion? It's a worthy vehicle, but definitely not 6 figures worthy. So keep some money in your account if you want to bid on this. Just because Joe Spags owns it, doesn't automatically make it flawless or "factory-correct". He does seem to love Oldsmobiles, though.
I don't know the car. Joe is a decent dude. He showed the hemi under glass at the HO nationals this past summer and was a good guy to talk to. Doesn't strike me as one who would push a fraud (and I don't mean to imply anyone here said that.)
Yeah, Joe is a pretty decent guy. I don't hang with him or anything, but what little interactions I've had with him at the H/O meets, he seems trustworthy as to not knowingly screw anyone over. It's not like he doesn't have $$ hanging out of his jockstrap already. So I'm guessing he may have some new toys he wants to buy, or just getting older and wanting to whittle down his huge collection of cool cars, but I can't believe nobody got killed by him when he had his 72 convertible H/O, with the big Hurst shifter platform attached, jumped on by a bunch of idiots at a recent H/O meet. I believe there was some damage. Don't know why someone's not 6 feet under for acting like azz clowns.
Way back when, he also ponied up some substantial reward money at the 2009 Indy H/O meet when 4 H/Os got stolen and some trailer locks got cut but nothing stolen. That's stepping up.
November 28th, 2021, 01:15 AM
