looking for knowledge on front end wheel alignment. What i basically have going on is the front wheels on the bottom tilt outward. I do believe this is called Negative Camber. Anyway background is 69 Cutlass using origanal A arms and then using spendles off an later A body i picked up at a junkyard for disk brakes. With this i have some wheel lean. Is this the case were on the top bold of the spindle i have to shim. Not looking to get a perfect alignment but something close to get it to a shop at a later date.

 

The shims would go on the upper A arm. However the placement of the shims will effect your castor also. I would recommend taking it to a reliable front end shop for an alignment, its much easier. Check with folks in your area for a referal.

 

How much "later"? Any 1964-72 A-body spindles interchange with no problems.

The 73-up spindles are taller and, more importantly, use a different taper on the ball joint and tie rod studs. If you are using the 73-up spindles and didn't change to later ball joints and tie rod ends, THIS IS NOT SAFE. You will eventually break a tie rod or ball joint.

Also, the taller spindles require shortened upper arms to restore alignment, which is why this is not a good swap. The bump steer will be much worse as well due to the different steering arm locations.

 

Adding shims of the same thickness, equal amounts to EACH bolt will make camber more positive and not affect caster.
The CSM details wheel alignment in the first chapter.

Also, the upper control arm pivot shaft MAY be an offset type if it has ever been replaced. Offset shafts will have "wheel side" stamped in them on the wheel side. If "wheel side" is pointing to the engine, the offset is pointing the wrong way and the shaft needs to be rotated.

Roughly, how much tilt do you have? Using a level and a straight edge touching the top of the tire, and straight to the ground, how much gap is between the bottom tire sidewallto the straight edge?

 

In placing a level against the bottom of the wheel straight up and making it level there is a good inch tilt inward at the top. I am curious if i don't have 73 and on up spindles. any markings on them that could tell me what they are like a number stamp. Note calipers from a 71 cutlass bolted up with the caliper brackets if that lends any help.

 

Oh - so the tops of the front wheels are tilting in towards the engine! I thought it was the opposite.
Now - about how many shims are used under each of the upper A-arm shaft bolts?

Sounds like something is wrong here aside from just alignment if there just a few (or no) shims..

 

Yes the tops of the tires are tilted in. I have no shimes on either rigth now. I have the upper control arm pivit shapft right up against the inner part of the frame so no shims are pulling it inward. I racked my brain for hours on it last night. Even went as far as thinking i had the uipper and lower control arms flipped from side to side since i took them off over a year ago to prep the frame. Looked at my dismantling pics this morning and no i have it right. Next i was thinking it was the lower Control Arms rear busings. They are ovel and the bushin has the bolt hole in the center. With this i was thinking maybe just maybe they had various options. in these bushings where the bushing has a different position for some bushings. Couldn't find anthing out their on that.

When you say offset shaft. What are you meaning? I had re-used what was on the car.

 

Since no shims, there is something else way wrong. Even offset shafts would not cause that much camber.
Did the wheels sit straight before the disc brake conversion? If so, I bet the wrong parts were somehow used.

 

My bad also!!!

 

Guys we pulled the numbers off the backing plates and here they are.

Right side 5463566-R
Left side 5463565-L

 

Not sure this helps much, but there is a very easy way to identify the spindles. The 1964-72 spindles use bolt-on steering arms (and bolt-on caliper brackets for the 67-72 disc brake spindles). The 1973-up spindles have the caliper mounts and steering arms forged integrally with the spindle.

 

Does the stamping actually say "wheel side"? Mine have a letter stamping on one side but it doesn't say 'wheel side'. You're scaring me because mine are all reassembled. These upper shafts looked 100% symmetrical. I know they're not exactly like the ones you have on Lady.

 

Only certain replacement shafts (such as Moog) are offset and if they are, the 'wheel side' would be stamped on them. -I believe those are sold to help align cars with sagging frames.

 

thx, that's what I was hoping you guys would say. I guess it would only be about a 5 hour job (now that I know what to do) if I had to reverse them. I can breathe now....

 

You mean 5 hours squared...

 

Guys
Let me play catchup here. First to answer Joe's question about bolt on Steering and Caliper brackets. Yes they bolt on.

Next from the next email the shafts appear to look the same with no offset. I will get some pics tonight and post them up.

Thanks for the help.

 

Nope, 5 hours period. What's still hanging in there after that doesn't get the TLC it would like.

Now that I know how to separate the spindles, remove springs, pop UCA bolt - no prob. The shaft would just rotate around to the right side and we'd be on the fly with a reinstall. Don't need to touch any bushings....but I'll admit it would sort of screw up your alignment if the shaft had an offset. I didn't factor that into rotating the shaft.

 

Guys
Going to post up a couple rounds of picss. Please excuse the how crappy they turned out.

I looked at the top arm and there does not appear to be any offset on these. Hopefully these help.

 

Now when i put the level on the Passenger side front it was only had an 1/8 inch tilt in but as you can see in the pics the driver side the bubble on the level was way out.

 

Did you check it with the wheels attached and weight on them?
To get accurate alignment numbers I thought the car needed to be assembled so all of it's weight is there...

 

yep that is when i noticed the wheels tilted inward at the top.

 

What I'm NOT seeing here are any alignment shims - unless you painted them black? That could explain your problem. This is a pic showing the shim pack that was reinstalled on my car during reassembly.

 

My 70 Conv had the same tilt you describe and I knew adding shims would make it worse. I was doing a frame off anyway and I replaced both front springs and that fixed my issue. Now I know that does not make sense that just springs would fix it, but for some reason, my wheels are now tilted normally and actually had to add a few shims to get camber correct. I also replaced the ball joints so maybe they were worn also.

 

Yeah no shims in mine. Ball joints were all replaced awhile back. Maybe it is the springs. They were a B to install. Vista cruser springs which gave the front end lift. I might try that route plus the top rubber bushings on the springs are old.

 

Mine is all new too. All new bushings, ball joints. Original springs though. I thought you needed shims to establish the proper camber and caster. I don't see a lot of difference between the 69 CSM and 72 CSM for specs on this.

 

Front springs should not have rubber between them and the metal on both sides.
Did you put the pigtails in the proper place (next to the drain hole on the lower control arm pocket?)

 

I will check that tonight. It has been over a year since i put the springs back in it.

 

The first thing to check is the ride height. The front wheels change chamber over the travel of the suspension. The reading will not be correct if ride height is not correct. Two things to consider when checking ride height are 1) did you get the springs installed correctly and 2) did you torque the control arm fasteners with the weight of the car on the springs. In the case of spring installation, it is common to get the upper end of the spring sideways in the spring pocket, resulting in too high a ride height. In the case of the fasteners, torquing with the suspension at full droop will "lock" the bushings in the wrong position, effectively increasing the spring rate and altering ride height.