Radiator recommendations?
September 17th, 2018, 05:37 AM
#2
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I've heard mixed reviews about the Champion radiators. Your best option is to remove the radiator in it and have it repaired. I just bought a parts store cheapie. It's aluminum with plastic headers but it has a lifetime warranty.
September 17th, 2018, 08:44 AM
#4
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So you want an aftermarket radiator that looks just like the factory radiator? I don't think you will find that, but check with some of the restoration houses and see what they have available.
Last edited by Fun71; September 17th, 2018 at 10:53 AM.
September 17th, 2018, 09:15 AM
#7
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Most, if not all, of the typical aftermarket copper/brass radiators will have the " 71/72 " style ANGLED FILLER NECK tank on the large tank end....if that matters to you at all.
Your '70 came with a radiator that had a more "level" oriented filler neck....SLIGHTLY angled but nowhere near the almost 45 degree angle of the 71/2 filler necks.
The Parts Place probably still sells a "correct" looking flat filler neck reproduction radiator for the '70 model....can't comment on the quality, etc as I've never had one.
Dewitt's Radiator makes and sells an all aluminum radiator that is reasonably close to the '70 style as well. It has the level/slightly angled filler neck like the original '70 and it has some "ridges" stamped into the end tanks to emulate the look of the original Harrison radiators. These ridges aren't as prominent or numerous as the originals (only a couple "ridges" on the fill side tank and less than stock on the small end tank) BUT on the other hand, the tanks aren't perfectly smooth like most aftermarket alum radiators. And, the edges of the tanks are rounded off instead of TIG welded plate like many aftermarkets have.
The auto trans line cooler fittings are in the same location as the original '70 radiators on the Dewitt's unit. The trans cooler fittings on the tank have a different look (compared to original) but so will all the other aftermarket radiators. This radiator is sold as a "classic" replacement for Chevelles. Fit in a '70 Olds is perfect...I recently installed one in a customer's '70 442.
Yes, the weld seam for the tanks isn't super original looking compared to the soldered overlap seam found on the originals BUT I've seen a lot more "non-stock" looking welding on other alum radiators. Plus - paint it black like the originals were and the seam doesn't "glare" at you as much as a bare or polished unit would.
Not cheap but they do seem to cool well.
You will spend quite a bit finding an original, correctly stamped, 4 row Harrison and then spend plenty to get it recored.
Link to the Dewitt's radiator and Summit (NOTE: Summit sells the same radiator via BeCool brand radiators....the BeCool radiator is the same radiator....made for them by Dewitts)
Dewitt's link:
https://www.dewitts.com/collections/...adiator-manual
Summit/BeCool link:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/b...bile/model/442
At the end of the day....if you aren't worried about having the same/original angle on the fill side tank then your options are fairly large. And the cost is potentially a lot less (ie - brands like Champion Radiator, USRadiator, etc).
Also - the Champion and USRadiator and other typical aftermarket radiators probably have the trans cooler fittings in the '71/2 position/spacing so your '70 trans cooler lines would have to be modified to fit....or get '71/2 lines.
Your '70 came with a radiator that had a more "level" oriented filler neck....SLIGHTLY angled but nowhere near the almost 45 degree angle of the 71/2 filler necks.
The Parts Place probably still sells a "correct" looking flat filler neck reproduction radiator for the '70 model....can't comment on the quality, etc as I've never had one.
Dewitt's Radiator makes and sells an all aluminum radiator that is reasonably close to the '70 style as well. It has the level/slightly angled filler neck like the original '70 and it has some "ridges" stamped into the end tanks to emulate the look of the original Harrison radiators. These ridges aren't as prominent or numerous as the originals (only a couple "ridges" on the fill side tank and less than stock on the small end tank) BUT on the other hand, the tanks aren't perfectly smooth like most aftermarket alum radiators. And, the edges of the tanks are rounded off instead of TIG welded plate like many aftermarkets have.
The auto trans line cooler fittings are in the same location as the original '70 radiators on the Dewitt's unit. The trans cooler fittings on the tank have a different look (compared to original) but so will all the other aftermarket radiators. This radiator is sold as a "classic" replacement for Chevelles. Fit in a '70 Olds is perfect...I recently installed one in a customer's '70 442.
Yes, the weld seam for the tanks isn't super original looking compared to the soldered overlap seam found on the originals BUT I've seen a lot more "non-stock" looking welding on other alum radiators. Plus - paint it black like the originals were and the seam doesn't "glare" at you as much as a bare or polished unit would.
Not cheap but they do seem to cool well.
You will spend quite a bit finding an original, correctly stamped, 4 row Harrison and then spend plenty to get it recored.
Link to the Dewitt's radiator and Summit (NOTE: Summit sells the same radiator via BeCool brand radiators....the BeCool radiator is the same radiator....made for them by Dewitts)
Dewitt's link:
https://www.dewitts.com/collections/...adiator-manual
Summit/BeCool link:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/b...bile/model/442
At the end of the day....if you aren't worried about having the same/original angle on the fill side tank then your options are fairly large. And the cost is potentially a lot less (ie - brands like Champion Radiator, USRadiator, etc).
Also - the Champion and USRadiator and other typical aftermarket radiators probably have the trans cooler fittings in the '71/2 position/spacing so your '70 trans cooler lines would have to be modified to fit....or get '71/2 lines.
Last edited by 70Post; September 17th, 2018 at 09:25 AM.
September 17th, 2018, 11:47 AM
#9
Patton, thanks for the reply. Cooling is the main concern, naturally. I lived in Northern Indiana and have another 70 Cutlass with 455 and temp would climb into the "OH OH " zone when stuck in traffic. I retired and now live in SW Florida and brought that car with me. I dont want the same thing happening to me with this car I am building. In the car that overheats, I am using a stock small block 3 core rad. I know that should be upgraded. to a four core. Parts Place sells a Cold Case all aluminum one for about $340.00. Have You heard of that brand.?
September 17th, 2018, 05:49 PM
#10
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: central Indiana
Posts: 5,340
My Be-Cool radiator keeps my 455 cool with ease, even with the A/C. I installed all the factory “tar paper” baffles and shrouding, Unless someone really looks closely it’s easy to iignore the fact it’s aftermarket.
My brother in law bought a Champion radiator for his 87, it’s much cheaper than a be cool and works very well.
My brother in law bought a Champion radiator for his 87, it’s much cheaper than a be cool and works very well.
September 17th, 2018, 08:00 PM
#11
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Austin, Texas
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Matt - Which BeCool rad did you buy?
Matviar - I think it also helps to make sure you have the "good' water pump. Factory pump would be a 404847 or a 400296 casting number. BUT....make sure it ends up with a factory (or good aftermarket) impeller in it. The original impellers were a cast iron "closed" impeller.....compare this to the typical rebuilder impeller that looks more "open" (sort of similar to an alternator fan).
I think the closed impeller may move more water and that helps cooling.
Some old water pump rebuilders MAY have original closed impellers they can install in a core that had the impeller swapped to a open design (during a prior, volume rebuilder, rebuild).
Or....a couple more possibilities...
>Flowkooler may sell an aluminum water pump with a high flow impeller. I think Flowkooler makes their own high flow impellers (closed style impeller but machined from aluminum and anodized). A buddy of mine here that's building another, seriously warmed-over 455 for his '72 Cutlass convert said the motor came back to him with an "aluminum pump that had a crazy looking aluminum impeller in it". When I quizzed him some more I think he said it came from Flowkooler. NOTE: I'm fairly sure Flowkooler just buys aluminum pumps from GMB (a large aftermarket manufacturer) and then installs their better impeller in them.
>I believe Flowkooler can also rebuild an original cast iron pump and install one of their high flow aluminum impellers in it. That's what Luke ("83HurstOlds" on this site) had done on his original pump....he has a pic of it in his build thread I think.
These HD factory pumps also have a larger inlet (that the lower radiator hose hooks to) compared to some other Olds factory pumps. So - you need to be aware of that when you figure out a radiator and get a radiator with a bottom outlet that matches the original hose.
I'll post diameters of the HD factory pump inlet and the 4 row lower rad outlet so you'll have a reference.
A lot of the cheaper aftermarket radiators come with a smaller lower hose outlet....and then they want you to use a spacer sleeve to make up the difference b/n the outlet and the lower hose. A recipe for a leak in my book and why inhibit flow with a smaller outlet anyway?
Fan clutches, timing, running lean/rich are other factors to check to "help" with cooling somewhat...but that discussion can get long as well as those surrounding electric fans, etc.
I'll follow up with some pics and measurements.
Matviar - I think it also helps to make sure you have the "good' water pump. Factory pump would be a 404847 or a 400296 casting number. BUT....make sure it ends up with a factory (or good aftermarket) impeller in it. The original impellers were a cast iron "closed" impeller.....compare this to the typical rebuilder impeller that looks more "open" (sort of similar to an alternator fan).
I think the closed impeller may move more water and that helps cooling.
Some old water pump rebuilders MAY have original closed impellers they can install in a core that had the impeller swapped to a open design (during a prior, volume rebuilder, rebuild).
Or....a couple more possibilities...
>Flowkooler may sell an aluminum water pump with a high flow impeller. I think Flowkooler makes their own high flow impellers (closed style impeller but machined from aluminum and anodized). A buddy of mine here that's building another, seriously warmed-over 455 for his '72 Cutlass convert said the motor came back to him with an "aluminum pump that had a crazy looking aluminum impeller in it". When I quizzed him some more I think he said it came from Flowkooler. NOTE: I'm fairly sure Flowkooler just buys aluminum pumps from GMB (a large aftermarket manufacturer) and then installs their better impeller in them.
>I believe Flowkooler can also rebuild an original cast iron pump and install one of their high flow aluminum impellers in it. That's what Luke ("83HurstOlds" on this site) had done on his original pump....he has a pic of it in his build thread I think.
These HD factory pumps also have a larger inlet (that the lower radiator hose hooks to) compared to some other Olds factory pumps. So - you need to be aware of that when you figure out a radiator and get a radiator with a bottom outlet that matches the original hose.
I'll post diameters of the HD factory pump inlet and the 4 row lower rad outlet so you'll have a reference.
A lot of the cheaper aftermarket radiators come with a smaller lower hose outlet....and then they want you to use a spacer sleeve to make up the difference b/n the outlet and the lower hose. A recipe for a leak in my book and why inhibit flow with a smaller outlet anyway?
Fan clutches, timing, running lean/rich are other factors to check to "help" with cooling somewhat...but that discussion can get long as well as those surrounding electric fans, etc.
I'll follow up with some pics and measurements.
Last edited by 70Post; September 17th, 2018 at 08:22 PM.
September 17th, 2018, 08:12 PM
#12
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 3,194
Couple of factory water pump pics below and....
Lower hose outlet on the radiator fill side tank - measurement just taken on an original 4 row '70 442 radiator - is 1 - 13/16" (the stock hose is made this way....slightly smaller on the radiator outlet vs. the water pump inlet)
I've heard about the Cold Case brand....can't give an opinion as I've never had one. BUT....like most parts sellers, they probably make some crazy claims about their radiators. Take it all with a grain of salt. Probably no better and probably not worse, than other ones out there. The "Be All End All" radiator???? I seriously doubt it.
The radiator vendors know people like us are always complaining about high operating temps so they market accordingly.
EDIT and ADD: I just went to Cold Case's site and looked at their "Oldsmobile" radiator:
>Trans cooler outlets - appear to be in the 1970 spacing/location which is a plus compared to some others
>Does have "rounded edge" tanks like the Dewitts/BeCool and also has some of the "ridges" so the tanks aren't completely smooth.
>On the "negative" side...filler neck angle is the '71/2 angle.
> 1.25" tubes - Dewitts/BeCool I linked to come with 1" tubes and they have an extra cost option of larger tubes. BUT - Dewitt's claims you don't need their larger tube version unless you are running some serious hp.....600-700 and up type power.
Does appear to be "some bang for the buck" with the Cold Case if it truly performs well.....no way to know without trying it and seeing what happens on YOUR car...that's what matters.
BTW - Are you running an aftermarket water temp gauge? You know, one with a dial and real numbers instead of just the "bars" like you get on a factory Rally Pac gauge. Not a bad idea even if it's just for "data gathering" during your cooling quest...can easily be removed if you don't want it hanging under the dash.
Lower hose outlet on the radiator fill side tank - measurement just taken on an original 4 row '70 442 radiator - is 1 - 13/16" (the stock hose is made this way....slightly smaller on the radiator outlet vs. the water pump inlet)
I've heard about the Cold Case brand....can't give an opinion as I've never had one. BUT....like most parts sellers, they probably make some crazy claims about their radiators. Take it all with a grain of salt. Probably no better and probably not worse, than other ones out there. The "Be All End All" radiator???? I seriously doubt it.
The radiator vendors know people like us are always complaining about high operating temps so they market accordingly.
EDIT and ADD: I just went to Cold Case's site and looked at their "Oldsmobile" radiator:
>Trans cooler outlets - appear to be in the 1970 spacing/location which is a plus compared to some others
>Does have "rounded edge" tanks like the Dewitts/BeCool and also has some of the "ridges" so the tanks aren't completely smooth.
>On the "negative" side...filler neck angle is the '71/2 angle.
> 1.25" tubes - Dewitts/BeCool I linked to come with 1" tubes and they have an extra cost option of larger tubes. BUT - Dewitt's claims you don't need their larger tube version unless you are running some serious hp.....600-700 and up type power.
Does appear to be "some bang for the buck" with the Cold Case if it truly performs well.....no way to know without trying it and seeing what happens on YOUR car...that's what matters.
BTW - Are you running an aftermarket water temp gauge? You know, one with a dial and real numbers instead of just the "bars" like you get on a factory Rally Pac gauge. Not a bad idea even if it's just for "data gathering" during your cooling quest...can easily be removed if you don't want it hanging under the dash.
Last edited by 70Post; September 17th, 2018 at 08:35 PM.
September 18th, 2018, 03:16 AM
#13
No trick engine, just a 68 455 believed to be from a 442. C heads? I think I am going with the cold case. Price is good, and can live with the angled filler neck. Heck, this car was born a cutlass supreme cv. anyway, Thanks for Your input. If I ever finish this project, I can tell people if the rad was worth it. THANKS!
September 18th, 2018, 05:21 AM
#14
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Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Evansville, IN
Posts: 10,506
I ran an experiment on a Chevy for years with a mechanical temp numbers gauge in the TCS hole on the right head with factory gauge in left head. Olds has the one input on the intake manifold, so you can either borrow it temporarily for a good gauge, or you can use a junction in the radiator hose with a bung for the sender. "T"ing the temp port does not work.
Also, modern cores that are clean outflow old, funky cores, even if they have less rows.
Also, modern cores that are clean outflow old, funky cores, even if they have less rows.
September 18th, 2018, 06:27 AM
#15
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Rogues Island, USA
Posts: 3,613
http://www.usradiator.com/radiators/...05&material=25
US Radiator, they aren't cheap
US Radiator, they aren't cheap
September 18th, 2018, 07:24 AM
#16
'72 Cutlass ragtop
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 957
here's what I have in my '72 Cutlass - was a direct drop in and you can paint it black if you want the factory look
https://www.autocityclassic.com/chev...tor-sl-282-at/
https://www.autocityclassic.com/chev...tor-sl-282-at/
September 18th, 2018, 09:17 AM
#18
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Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 14,141
*edited to correct water pump inlet dimensions
Last edited by Fun71; September 18th, 2018 at 10:24 AM. Reason: to correct water pump inlet dimensions
September 18th, 2018, 10:13 AM
#19
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 3,194
To avoid confusion b/n my water pump inlet measurements and what Kenneth mentions above:
>I measured the OUTSIDE DIAMETER of the water pump inlet.....2"
>I believe Kenneth is possibly referring to the INSIDE DIAMETER of the inlet when he mentions " 1 - 3/4" "
I just measured the inside diameter of the HD 404847 pumps here and it's actually just over 1-1/2".....1 - 9/16" using a caliper.
>I measured the OUTSIDE DIAMETER of the water pump inlet.....2"
>I believe Kenneth is possibly referring to the INSIDE DIAMETER of the inlet when he mentions " 1 - 3/4" "
I just measured the inside diameter of the HD 404847 pumps here and it's actually just over 1-1/2".....1 - 9/16" using a caliper.
September 18th, 2018, 10:23 AM
#20
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 14,141
Good catch on the dimensions. I looked up the lower radiator hoses to get the numbers and inadvertently posted the radiator outlet sizes instead of the water pump inlet sizes. I edited the above post to correct this information.
September 18th, 2018, 11:00 AM
#21
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Ft. Wayne, IN
Posts: 1,241
I used a Champion in my '68, it works great (*) and fits great. The trans cooler lines were in the proper place, but the lower hose outlet diameter was the smaller size for the later cars (Champion didn't offer an option on this that I was aware of). So to get it to fit my larger lower radiator hose, I re-used the plastic "cap" that came installed on that lower outlet when it shipped, cut off the end to turn it into a sleeve and applied Permatex to the ID and OD of that sleeve to help take up the gap between the outlet and the hose. Hasn't leaked since.
(*) The only flaw I've found in the Champion radiator is that their "billet" neck doesn't seem to seal to the cap that was included w/ the radiator. I picked up a Auto Zone cap and it seals better, but you have to be careful to get it "centered" on the neck to keep it from leaking (there seems to be some tolerance slop here).
(*) The only flaw I've found in the Champion radiator is that their "billet" neck doesn't seem to seal to the cap that was included w/ the radiator. I picked up a Auto Zone cap and it seals better, but you have to be careful to get it "centered" on the neck to keep it from leaking (there seems to be some tolerance slop here).
September 18th, 2018, 11:59 AM
#23
'72 Cutlass ragtop
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 957
The Auto City Classics radiator I use is indicated to be a drop in for small and big block apps - My car is an Olds 350 / factory air setup and it was plug n' play.
Motor is mildly built and air is now a new Vintage Air system, but you get the idea - also running a Milodon aluminum water pump which definitely helps the cooling.
You can also add a water-wetting agent to your coolant, such as Red-Line or other similar products - they are said to help reduce coolant temps some.
Motor is mildly built and air is now a new Vintage Air system, but you get the idea - also running a Milodon aluminum water pump which definitely helps the cooling.
You can also add a water-wetting agent to your coolant, such as Red-Line or other similar products - they are said to help reduce coolant temps some.
Last edited by 70sgeek; September 18th, 2018 at 12:02 PM.
September 18th, 2018, 12:43 PM
#24
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Location: Ft. Wayne, IN
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September 18th, 2018, 06:39 PM
#25
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: central Indiana
Posts: 5,340
Matt - Which BeCool rad did you buy?
Matviar - I think it also helps to make sure you have the "good' water pump. Factory pump would be a 404847 or a 400296 casting number. BUT....make sure it ends up with a factory (or good aftermarket) impeller in it. The original impellers were a cast iron "closed" impeller.....compare this to the typical rebuilder impeller that looks more "open" (sort of similar to an alternator fan).
I think the closed impeller may move more water and that helps cooling.
Some old water pump rebuilders MAY have original closed impellers they can install in a core that had the impeller swapped to a open design (during a prior, volume rebuilder, rebuild).
Or....a couple more possibilities...
>Flowkooler may sell an aluminum water pump with a high flow impeller. I think Flowkooler makes their own high flow impellers (closed style impeller but machined from aluminum and anodized). A buddy of mine here that's building another, seriously warmed-over 455 for his '72 Cutlass convert said the motor came back to him with an "aluminum pump that had a crazy looking aluminum impeller in it". When I quizzed him some more I think he said it came from Flowkooler. NOTE: I'm fairly sure Flowkooler just buys aluminum pumps from GMB (a large aftermarket manufacturer) and then installs their better impeller in them.
>I believe Flowkooler can also rebuild an original cast iron pump and install one of their high flow aluminum impellers in it. That's what Luke ("83HurstOlds" on this site) had done on his original pump....he has a pic of it in his build thread I think.
These HD factory pumps also have a larger inlet (that the lower radiator hose hooks to) compared to some other Olds factory pumps. So - you need to be aware of that when you figure out a radiator and get a radiator with a bottom outlet that matches the original hose.
I'll post diameters of the HD factory pump inlet and the 4 row lower rad outlet so you'll have a reference.
A lot of the cheaper aftermarket radiators come with a smaller lower hose outlet....and then they want you to use a spacer sleeve to make up the difference b/n the outlet and the lower hose. A recipe for a leak in my book and why inhibit flow with a smaller outlet anyway?
Fan clutches, timing, running lean/rich are other factors to check to "help" with cooling somewhat...but that discussion can get long as well as those surrounding electric fans, etc.
I'll follow up with some pics and measurements.
Matviar - I think it also helps to make sure you have the "good' water pump. Factory pump would be a 404847 or a 400296 casting number. BUT....make sure it ends up with a factory (or good aftermarket) impeller in it. The original impellers were a cast iron "closed" impeller.....compare this to the typical rebuilder impeller that looks more "open" (sort of similar to an alternator fan).
I think the closed impeller may move more water and that helps cooling.
Some old water pump rebuilders MAY have original closed impellers they can install in a core that had the impeller swapped to a open design (during a prior, volume rebuilder, rebuild).
Or....a couple more possibilities...
>Flowkooler may sell an aluminum water pump with a high flow impeller. I think Flowkooler makes their own high flow impellers (closed style impeller but machined from aluminum and anodized). A buddy of mine here that's building another, seriously warmed-over 455 for his '72 Cutlass convert said the motor came back to him with an "aluminum pump that had a crazy looking aluminum impeller in it". When I quizzed him some more I think he said it came from Flowkooler. NOTE: I'm fairly sure Flowkooler just buys aluminum pumps from GMB (a large aftermarket manufacturer) and then installs their better impeller in them.
>I believe Flowkooler can also rebuild an original cast iron pump and install one of their high flow aluminum impellers in it. That's what Luke ("83HurstOlds" on this site) had done on his original pump....he has a pic of it in his build thread I think.
These HD factory pumps also have a larger inlet (that the lower radiator hose hooks to) compared to some other Olds factory pumps. So - you need to be aware of that when you figure out a radiator and get a radiator with a bottom outlet that matches the original hose.
I'll post diameters of the HD factory pump inlet and the 4 row lower rad outlet so you'll have a reference.
A lot of the cheaper aftermarket radiators come with a smaller lower hose outlet....and then they want you to use a spacer sleeve to make up the difference b/n the outlet and the lower hose. A recipe for a leak in my book and why inhibit flow with a smaller outlet anyway?
Fan clutches, timing, running lean/rich are other factors to check to "help" with cooling somewhat...but that discussion can get long as well as those surrounding electric fans, etc.
I'll follow up with some pics and measurements.
my Be-Cool radiator has been in the car for 15 years, I’m pretty sure it’s just the standard radiator. I did upgrade to a FlowKooler water pump when my original cast pump started leaking. The hottest I have ever seen the engine get is about 210, that was idling in a July 4th parade in 90* heat with the A/C going. There were a few other cars that overheated, not the Olds!!! 😎
September 19th, 2018, 05:34 AM
#26
Matt, I bought and intalled a new water pump from Rock Auto. It is designed for 455, AC and HD cooling. It has a 2" outlet. I dont want to change it out. Now I guess I have to get the right hoses and radiator with the correct size inlet and outlets. The thermostat housing measures 1 1/2 diameter. Does this sound like I am on the right path?
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