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major water issue new to me 1968 Cutlass S Convertible
So, I posted a few days ago that I just picked up this 1968 Cutlass S. Just arrived today, in fact. I knew there was SOME water drainage issue; initial inspection showed a fair amount of water in the trunk after a heavy rain (which occurred the day before I first saw the car). With that in mind, I wasn't overly concerned about it. The owner had it garaged most of the time over the last 20 years, underneath looked very clean (I uploaded a bunch of pics, but showing only one here to give an idea). The weather strip on the trunk was virtually gone, and I figured that was a major factor. Big surprise today though when I pulled the rear seat: I fear I purchased a headache. About 1/2" of Water on the floor underneath the seat, and a fair amount of oxidation on the metal, mostly on passenger side. I should have photographed this (and can do so). There are two rubber plugs there, but decided I should leave them in until I know more. Carpet needs to be replaced, for sure, but first I have to solve this problem.
Any thoughts on why the water is not draining? For the record, the rain gutter appears to be in tact, but, it appears perhaps the top needs to come off to be sure?
Can't really help you with that problem, my 71 has never leaked or built up water in the rear, but it sure has in the passenger front! I hope someone comes along with a similar problem and solution. I would have guessed the rain gutter too ,but you say it's OK? Good luck finding it, I'll be watching.
Water runs down the top material, between the top material and the body opening, then is supposed to fall into the drain gutter. The drain gutter is a large U shaped thing that runs around the body opening for the top, just below the deck area. The front ends of the drain gutter are angled downwards to channel the water to the drain holes in the body in front of the rear wheels.
I would inspect the top material where it attaches to the rear lower tack strip and make sure there isn't something causing the water to divert from the rain gutter, such as an area of material sticking out, some debris, etc. (You may need to climb into the trunk to do this). If nothing seems amiss there, check the body drain openings to make sure they aren't blocked.
I agree you can likely pull the carpet and dry it out. I lived on the Gulf Coast for many years and got caught in numerous sudden rainstorms with the top down. I just let the carpet dry out and all was well.
Last edited by Fun71; September 29th, 2021 at 04:00 PM.
Here are some pics of a 69 chevelle hardtop I did a few years back, but the rocker drain holes would be the same on any a-body 2 door (convert or hardtop). As stated, the top "U-channel" drain dumps water right in front of the rear wheel wells. That water is meant to exit through the holes circled below and then out the rear of the rocker. As you can imagine, over time these drain holes can get clogged from dirt and debris. As others have said, other than these drains, there is not really anywhere else in the floor that is meant to be a drain, it is more about keeping water from getting in the car in the first place by replacing seals, etc.
I forgot to mention on my car when the carpet/underlayment got soaked, I took out seat and pulled up carpet/ underlayment and folded it over. Then ran a old electric fan on it overnight. Dried it right out. I've had to do this many times.
Very helpful pics! I did climb in the trunk and felt along that rain gutter as far as I could reach. All clear! So, looks like I need to pull the rear door panels to check those drain holes? What about fishing a coat hanger wire or something similar up from underneath, see what shakes loose?
Carpet is trash by the way — not just soaked, but faded in some places and extremely dirty in others, and has a very musty odor. I could try washing it but they don't seem to be very expensive or hard to install. Challenge for me is I can't be sure what blue to choose (there's blue, dark blue, medium blue, light blue and turquoise to choose from)
The car looks very nice overall. I dont think youll have any big problems if you adress the issues now.
a coat hangar from underneath might get some but your best bet is to pull the panel, loosen up any junk in there and vacuum it all out. Once its clear make sure the water path from the top to the drain is correct and unobstructed.
The car looks very nice overall. I dont think youll have any big problems if you adress the issues now.
a coat hangar from underneath might get some but your best bet is to pull the panel, loosen up any junk in there and vacuum it all out. Once its clear make sure the water path from the top to the drain is correct and unobstructed.
Thank you RetroRanger: OVERALL the car is nice, some issues I hadn't originally noticed (like the barely imperceptible "bend" on the lower front bumper, for instance). But, hopefully nothing major we'll see. I've had the car less than 30 hours and it needs a serious tune up; idles very rough. So, plugs, wires, points, timing, valve cover, oil pan and tranny gaskets, at the very least. I was going to start in on it this weekend. But, sending it to a highly recommended local shop Accurate Performance in Hyde Park, MA to convert to dual exhaust next Friday, and they know the car way better than I do. Gonna let them at it.
Very easy to get the rear upholstery out of that car. Might be easier to remove the front seats too but you be the judge. Start with the rear lower seat. It can be a PITA but there are two places on the front frame bottom that secure it to the floor. Find those first! Once the seat bottom is out you can remove the seat back. After that, the side panels. All you really need is a phillips head screwdriver and an interior tool to pop the springs on the window handles (note their orientation prior to removal and put them back in the same way - not necessary but good practice).
Obviously, this is easiest with the top down. If it were me, I'd put the top back up at that point and have somebody spray the car down with a garden hose while you sit inside and wait for the water to start coming in. Pretty easy way to diagnose your problem. Good luck. Looks like a nice car.
If you want to do a quick initial test on the drains, simply pour some water down the rear window opening on each side, maybe 8oz or so. With top & rear window down there is a good access for the pour. You should have water running onto the top of your feet from open slot in the bottom rocker/pinch weld (10-12 in front of wheel opening) and a drain hole in quarter about 1-2ahead of the wheel opening.
If not, take a pocket screw driver and poke/wiggle around in the slot to see if you can create a gusher. There is also a pinch weld drain slot in the front appx 1 from the front end of rocker.
Pic is from a 70 but Im guessing 68 will be the same or very similar.
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Last edited by bccan; September 30th, 2021 at 12:44 PM.
Start with the rear lower seat. It can be a PITA but there are two places on the front frame bottom that secure it to the floor. Find those first!
If you haven't done this before, the procedure is to push downwards and backwards on the lower frame to get the seat bottom frame wire out of the locking channel.
As has already been stated by acavagnaro with a great image by Kenneth (Fun71) I embellished the image hoping to provide a little more clarity. When I was younger I had a habit of locking my keys in the trunk - I've done this several times.
So, the order is to (1) Push Down, (2) Back & (3) Up [Lift]. The real trick is the "Up" part. Take a very sturdy crow bar (if available) or a long think screwdriver and wedge it underneath the rear seat back metal frame (which is what is inserted into that floor mounted bracket). This will provide you the quick leverage you need to "raise" [lift] the bottom of the rear seat back metal frame "Up" and off the floor to release the rear seat back metal frame from the floor mounted rear seat bracket. What isn't mentioned, but can be seen depicted via the image, there is a "Up" & "Forward" motion to the "Up" lift in order to get around that curve. It will also save your fingers from getting maimed. Get your eyes down to floor level and review it before you start out and you'll get it.
Last edited by Vintage Chief; September 30th, 2021 at 02:45 PM.
Reason: up/curve
Well thanks all for the tips. Super helpful; tho the backseat came out much too easily, barely a push down, up or back and it was out. I suspect it had been removed before but not replaced correctly. In any case I was a bit surprised when I pulled back the interior panel/armrest to see a solid metal wall. I thought I might be able to see right through to the rocker. Obviously not the case so not quite sure how I can clean out the drain hole if it is in fact plugged. As you can see the rain gutter looks perfectly clear on both sides. I have yet to replace the trunk weather strip, which is all but gone, but I would think it is beyond that; most of the water was in the passenger side rear floor. So either way seems like it is not draining. Is there a hazard in removing the drain plugs and keeping them out?
Remove the side panel and then there is a inspection hole that is held in place with five hex screws. Remove that and in you go. Probably better with window up.
Remove the side panel and then there is a inspection hole that is held in place with five hex screws. Remove that and in you go. Probably better with window up.
gotcha! I was reluctant to move that side panel because Im not quite sure how its held in place. Do I just pull it off? They must be clips yes?
You remove the screws securing the arm rest then the cotter pin holding the door handle in place - remove the screw(s) holding the backing plate behind the armrest. If you have an exterior REMOTE mirror, remove the set screw (often an Allen screw) holding the cables to the remote mirror. Next, remove any screws which may be holding the panel to the door (located at the bottom of the door panel i.e. bottom of carpet on door panel) - you may or you may not find screws in that area. Then finally, grasp each side of the door panel with your fingers (or wedge a screw driver) in between the door panel and the door sheet metal frame and with a brisk pull towards you, begin pulling the door panel towards you. The edges are secured with "push-in" clips attached to the door panel edges.
I just looked at your interior picture - you have no remote mirror - makes it easier. I forgot to state, once you pull the door panel free, you'll then lift the door panel upwards to remove the door panel from the top two rounded holding brackets. When it comes time to reinstall, you'll place the door panel on top of those two rounded holding brackets. They secure the door panel in-place at the top of the door.
I just looked at your interior picture - you have no remote mirror - makes it easier. I forgot to state, once you pull the door panel free, you'll then lift the door panel upwards to remove the door panel from the top two rounded holding brackets. When it comes time to reinstall, you'll place the door panel on top of those two rounded holding brackets. They secure the door panel in-place at the top of the door.
thank you Norm! Just a note this is just the back-seat panel I am removing. Though at some point I will be removing the front as well so that is very helpful indeed
Right, and I just realized that (as I'm responding to another thread) also. Sorry about that. I've removed my sail panel and attached arm rest panel from the rear of my car but I've never gone beyond the point of removing the sail panel and arm rest panel. Do you already have the sail panel (the top rear panel) and armrest panel removed?
The top panel is the sail panel. The sail panel is attached to the bottom (armrest) panel via a bracket and couple of screws (which you cannot see until you remove both panels (top and bottom as one entire "section" consisting of the two panels)). Remove the screws securing the top sail panel, then I believe one or two screws in the front of the lower arm rest panel. You may need to remove the Body By Fisher aluminum rocker panel door guard. I think it may cover a portion of the front of the arm rest - can't recall. At this point, the panel(s) should be free to move (as I recall). The only thing left is to remove the light housing cover plate. As best as I can remember, I think the light housing cover plate can be squeezed on its edges (slightly) and pull outward from its holder (the metal holder).
Once the sail panel assembly is removed, I believe the rear panel is held in place via several screws - easy to locate, then you remove the rear panel pulling outwards as you would if you were removing the door panel (which was already described) - push-in clips on the sides (I can't recall if there were one or two top rounded pieces securing the rear panel to the sheet metal of the frame - I believe there are two. Someone else might know. It's been awhile since I removed the back panel.
Uh yeah, I forgot about the window handle. Remove the cotter pin securing the window handle. You kind of have to push (wedge) the panel towards the window a little then look behind the door handle to find the cotter pin.
Remove the side panel and then there is a inspection hole that is held in place with five hex screws. Remove that and in you go. Probably better with window up.
OK update! I’m almost certain I resolved the problem. After testing no water seems to be building up - so good news. (Though, After removing the inspection plate I expected to be able to see right through the drain hole to the ground, but not the case). Pics attached… Nevertheless I vacuumed out and actually hosed water directly into the cavity and now appears to be draining fine. Will continue to test…
New problem! The rear window was sticking and I see the problem is one roller was partly off its guide (now two rollers are off). I’m hoping there’s an easy way to get it back on. I thought I could potentially unscrew the roller and position the window and screw it back on but that doesnot seem to be the case - the roller would not unscrew. Do I need to start a new post or can someone provide tips for getting the window back on track?
Disconnect the regulator and slide off short track. Remove "up stop" one bolt. Lift glass straight up off verticle track and re-engage the three rollers in correct slots. Put other stuff back that you took apart.
Theres a funny little thing called a MAW that happens during any project on these cars. MAWs = might as wells. While im here might as well lubricate the window mechanisn, MAW make sure the other side is good too....you see where this is going.....
Disconnect the regulator and slide off short track. Remove "up stop" one bolt. Lift glass straight up off verticle track and re-engage the three rollers in correct slots. Put other stuff back that you took apart.
Thanks; couple (likely dumb) questions! Regulator? Up stop bolt - can you be more specific? I now what up stop is, just not sure which bolt. I suppose I could use my google machine too. TY again
Theres a funny little thing called a MAW that happens during any project on these cars. MAWs = might as wells. While im here might as well lubricate the window mechanisn, MAW make sure the other side is good too....you see where this is going.....
yes, I do, quite well in fact. Dont want to do this again anytime soon.
Thanks; couple (likely dumb) questions! Regulator? Up stop bolt - can you be more specific? I now what up stop is, just not sure which bolt. I suppose I could use my google machine too. TY again
Looking down at the rear of the glass is the "up stop" held in with one bolt. There is a thread for another guy wondering where this "up stop" goes on a '69. The regulator regulates the height of the glass when you crank the crank. I think four bolts hold the regulator in.
Another tip, I noticed your rear ashtrays looked dull and pitted. Can't do anything about the pits but get some SimiChrome polish and shine them back up.
September 29th, 2021, 12:07 PM
