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I need to find my Curt Anderson paper copy of his catalog and order parts for my 67.
I have an issue with clones. Not because the original restorer is dishonest, and maybe not because the guy that bought it is dishonest, but somewhere, somehow, down the line, someone is going to get conned into it being the real thing. I'm going to hang the W-30 OAI package on my 67, as in the shroud and the battery setup. It won't be a 308 cam. It won't have 80% of the W-30 "car" package on it, and it will be very obvious what it is and what it isn't.
I have no issue with people doing minor customization that makes it obvious it's a mod, not a clone. Despite their best efforts, I have less of a problem with clones than I could have, because the cloners usually get things wrong, and it is in our best interests to not share those tips.
For the OP, you'd need a protectoplate or an authentic window sticker or a build sheet to prove that car is a 442. On the other hand, it won't hurt how it looks and how it performs.
I feel the way about the clones. But am I wrong to think that there were "DEALER ADD ONS"??
I know of a car that the K-66 package was added on at the dealer. The original owner was a mechanic at the local dealership.
Dealer-installed parts aren't factory. If the dealer installed a Chevy motor, would that mean anything? Were there parts available over the counter? Of course, but how is bolting these parts onto the car in 1968 any different than doing it in 2023?
Beautiful car.
The acceptance of fake cars here kills me.
If that's your get down do it. I feel for people with true cars when people buy fakes and don't care at all.
I'm not arguing authenticity but I'd say each "8" on the data plate is identical. The data plate was changed from "33617" to "33817" (from a "6" to an "8")?
Whoever & whatever "machine" stamped the "8" they stamped the EXACT same "8" in four different places & they're each identical. Hmmmmm.....
I wonder what they were trying to do. I think they were trying to put an 8 in somewhere, and made the other 8s match. I suppose they built it from Cutlass and had to turn it into a Cutlass Supreme.
Thing is, with that much research, you'd think they'd have used a Lansing car.
Beautiful car.
The acceptance of fake cars here kills me.
If that's your get down do it. I feel for people with true cars when people buy fakes and don't care at all.
With all due respect not all of us can afford "True" cars but have the enginuity and thrill for turning wrenches so we make them what we always wanted. Give me a Tempest, i'll make it a GTO, Firebird, make it a TA, Camaro, Z28, Cutlass, 442 etc.. I get that there is a market for cloning cars with the intent to sell as original, but I would argue that most folks, like myself, are happy to share the true history of a car and would never misrepresent said history. Hence, me starting this thread to get all the history i could that i did not already know.
In the end i figure if you own it, you have every right to do what you will with it. If you are doing it to take advantage, then shame on you. If you have an original, rare car then I would be the first to show respect. Just my 2 cents.
I get that there is a market for cloning cars with the intent to sell as original, but I would argue that most folks, like myself, are happy to share the true history of a car and would never misrepresent said history.
That's most folks. Who knows what's going to happen a few owners down the line when somebody gets a little unscrupulous, or the waters of history just get a little muddy?
[QUOTE=mpowell;1508843In the end i figure if you own it, you have every right to do what you will with it. [/QUOTE]
But why is it that these rugged individualists who "do what you will with it" just want to make it look like every other one they see on the interwebs? I'm a big fan of "dare to be different". I'd rather see a Hemi swap into an Olds than another LS. I'd rather see a customized Cutlass with custom paint than another ersatz W30 with repro hood, trunk, red inner fenders, and stripes applied by Stevie Wonder. At least that way idiotic websites like Motorious won't hold it up as a real W30 and cause the uninformed to assume that every 1968 442 came with incorrectly applied W36 stripes.
Well and all that. If you want a fake this or that how about you just leave emblems off? Clones are selling for no less than original cars. That is the part to me I just don't get. Then people come in here and say so what. Look how much they spent rebuilding this car. It's worth what they are asking. It is a fake car!! That means nothing anymore. Go throw your cash at a fake car. No soul in the car. No soul in you.
Give me a Tempest I will make a GTO... No you won't you still have a Tempest. I would have so much more respect for a loaded with GTO parts car that was still branded as what it came as.
The comment that the original poster was just looking for information is a joke in itself. He posted that he knew it really wasn't what it is built as. He obviously knew what it was when he started the thread but still puts up a title stating it's a W car. Damn well knowing it isn't. That's bunk.
Last edited by no1oldsfan; July 4th, 2023 at 11:50 AM.
Interesting you could buy the whole body complete in 1966-67 I am told..If you did buy a complete body back then and put the drivetrain and all interior etc is it now a clone?the whole body would not include the cowl tag, you would have to use yours off the wrecked car I assume? How about when a car is wrecked and gets a cutlass fender, cutlass quarter panel, is it now illegitimate? Questions to ponder..what if you ad power windows, power steering, power brakes to a 442 that didn’t come with them from the factory..is it now an illegitimate car? as the op stated, some folks love the look and iconic history of certain cars and they build one to look just like it. I get the fact that down the road someone could pass it off as an original or at least try to. Hopefully that would not happen but nobody can change a nefarious character anymore than they can eliminate cars that have been modified with options not factory in a car or cars where half the body was changed out do to an accident. Its a slippery slope for sure. I guarantee you there are many big dollar cars that knowledgeable folk on this sight knows have been re- bodied or partially re-bodied..I mean where do you draw the line as to what’s acceptable and what needs declared! If you are selling your 68 442 and you have added power steering, 8 track tape player, power windows and cruise control should it be mandatory that you declare those changes were made along with a door from a 69 because it got hit? Before the crazies come out of the closet and say I am for cloning cars then please read thoroughly and understand these are legitimate questions that deserve a legitimate dialogue. I would like to know exactly where folks stand on this with a mindset of clarification instead of pulling out your big hammer.. I mean I have no delusions about people agreeing on this subject, but maybe we can have a dialogue and agree to disagree with some class.
Really simple for me Andy. If your car was born a 442 and got a replacement fender. Still a 442. Putting 442 emblems etc on a Cutlass? Still a Cutlass. Adding options that weren't there on a restoration? No problem with that at all. What was the car born as? Period. I do not and never will buy in or understand you defender's of fake cars. That's a take I will never get. Absolutely kills the hobby. Oh well it might be fake but look at all the money spent to deceive. Oh ok then it's acceptable. Not here. Not in my house.
That's most folks. Who knows what's going to happen a few owners down the line when somebody gets a little unscrupulous, or the waters of history just get a little muddy?
Fair point. It certainly happens all the time. I can only say that if you are buying something that has highly sought after factory options, do your homework and prove it out before purchasing. It's a buyer beware world unfortunately but i don't see that as a reason not to build a car the way you want it. My opinion only.
Really simple for me Andy. If your car was born a 442 and got a replacement fender. Still a 442. Putting 442 emblems etc on a Cutlass? Still a Cutlass. Adding options that weren't there on a restoration? No problem with that at all. What was the car born as? Period. I do not and never will buy in or understand you defender's of fake cars. That's a take I will never get. Absolutely kills the hobby. Oh well it might be fake but look at all the money spent to deceive. Oh ok then it's acceptable. Not here. Not in my house.
I am somewhat a purist, make no mistake..both my cars..to my knowledge are real..and I only purchase true cars.. just for argument sake, not calling you wrong..ok? so if its deceptive to sell a cutlass with every conceivable item changed to a 442 ( which it definitely is, make no mistake) then wouldn’t it be on a smaller scale just as deceptive selling a 442 with added options, possibly body parts used from a cutlass to repair without telling the buyer what that car was born with and what was added? ..especially on 66-67 cars as the 442 was merely an option on the cutlass supreme? Case in point, 66 track pack cars, there is no such thing from Oldsmobile, Curt coined the term..so should a 66 with the dealership w30 package added be advertised as a 66 442 with dealership added w30 option, or dealership provided w30 package added by customer? I mean the kit you bought from the dealership was legit.. Again, only for arguments sake. I mean think of a 67 chevelle SS, came with 325 ho, 350ho and 375 hp 396..so dang many variables
Simple. Did it come as an SS Chevelle? Did it come as a 442? GS GTO etc etc. If it didn't then no it isn't. Very simple. Adding options etc isn't even the same argument. Cutlass is Cutlass it's entire life. Le Mans... Always a Le Mans. Skylark suddenly becoming a Gran Sport? Nope. Still a Skylark. Emblems aren't going to make them what they aren't.
Simple. Did it come as an SS Chevelle? Did it come as a 442? GS GTO etc etc. If it didn't then no it isn't. Very simple. Adding options etc isn't even the same argument. Cutlass is Cutlass it's entire life. Le Mans... Always a Le Mans. Skylark suddenly becoming a Gran Sport? Nope. Still a Skylark. Emblems aren't going to make them what they aren't.
Not quite that simple fair amount of money difference in a 375 hp chevelle versus a 325 hp. Adding options isn’t the same argument as calling a cutlass-a 442 for sure.. My question was where does the deception end and begin..? If you advertise a 68 firebird with power steering, fold down rear seat, positraction, and many more options but it was a base firebird, not a 400 firebird then isn’t that deception as well? Or even if it was added to a 400 base firebird? If you’re the epitome of integrity shouldn’t that be disclosed? Probably should have used a buick or oldsmobile as this example as PHS if included would show that info.
Fair point. It certainly happens all the time. I can only say that if you are buying something that has highly sought after factory options, do your homework and prove it out before purchasing. It's a buyer beware world unfortunately but i don't see that as a reason not to build a car ....
Part of the problem, though, is that the people we see buying these cars don't seem to give a big rat's ***.
Last edited by BangScreech4-4-2; July 4th, 2023 at 02:07 PM.
Well and all that. If you want a fake this or that how about you just leave emblems off? Clones are selling for no less than original cars. That is the part to me I just don't get. Then people come in here and say so what. Look how much they spent rebuilding this car. It's worth what they are asking. It is a fake car!! That means nothing anymore. Go throw your cash at a fake car. No soul in the car. No soul in you.
Give me a Tempest I will make a GTO... No you won't you still have a Tempest. I would have so much more respect for a loaded with GTO parts car that was still branded as what it came as.
The comment that the original poster was just looking for information is a joke in itself. He posted that he knew it really wasn't what it is built as. He obviously knew what it was when he started the thread but still puts up a title stating it's a W car. Damn well knowing it isn't. That's bunk.
The market is what it is, original or not. People will pay what they are comfortable paying for a car. I respectfully disagree that "clones are selling for no less than originals." I would have paid far more for this car had it been an actual W30. I understand the subject of clones is similar to politics as to what side of the aisle you fall on and how passionate people feel either way. I get it and respect both sides. I should say that i don't automatically take a tempest and add GTO stuff but have no problem doing so if that's what i or someone else wants. I do love old cars in all makes and models. And yes, taking a Tempest and adding GTO options doesn't make it a GTO. What it does is make the owner happy.
As for your comment that I, the original poster, posting bunk?? Whatever man. You are right, i did know it wasn't a W-30 but is it a crime to try and find out all I can about a car I purchased and learn something along the way? I find the whole story of the car very interesting, scars and all. In fact, i recently heard from the guy that built the car way back, via this post, and learned all kinds of good info about its history that i found very interesting. Sorry if my opinion rubs you the wrong way sir but I can agree to respectfully disagree.
The market is what it is, original or not. People will pay what they are comfortable paying for a car. I respectfully disagree that "clones are selling for no less than originals." I would have paid far more for this car had it been an actual W30. I understand the subject of clones is similar to politics as to what side of the aisle you fall on and how passionate people feel either way. I get it and respect both sides. I should say that i don't automatically take a tempest and add GTO stuff but have no problem doing so if that's what i or someone else wants. I do love old cars in all makes and models. And yes, taking a Tempest and adding GTO options doesn't make it a GTO. What it does is make the owner happy.
As for your comment that I, the original poster, posting bunk?? Whatever man. You are right, i did know it wasn't a W-30 but is it a crime to try and find out all I can about a car I purchased and learn something along the way? I find the whole story of the car very interesting, scars and all. In fact, i recently heard from the guy that built the car way back, via this post, and learned all kinds of good info about its history that i found very interesting. Sorry if my opinion rubs you the wrong way sir but I can agree to respectfully disagree.
Your car your money and if you're happy with the car it's nobody's business but yours. Don't let the negative Nancy's ruin your love of the car. Speaking of Nancy's,here's a question. You have a 66 442 and you total it & you buy a body in white out of the GMPD and transfer everything into the new body. How is that perceived?
Your car your money and if you're happy with the car it's nobody's business but yours. Don't let the negative Nancy's ruin your love of the car. Speaking of Nancy's,here's a question. You have a 66 442 and you total it & you buy a body in white out of the GMPD and transfer everything into the new body. How is that perceived?
I asked that question, no answer. But you are the man that showed me you could buy that whole body.. same thing with what us now called a track pack car.. What is it?
The market is what it is, original or not. People will pay what they are comfortable paying for a car. I respectfully disagree that "clones are selling for no less than originals." I would have paid far more for this car had it been an actual W30. I understand the subject of clones is similar to politics as to what side of the aisle you fall on and how passionate people feel either way. I get it and respect both sides. I should say that i don't automatically take a tempest and add GTO stuff but have no problem doing so if that's what i or someone else wants. I do love old cars in all makes and models. And yes, taking a Tempest and adding GTO options doesn't make it a GTO. What it does is make the owner happy.
As for your comment that I, the original poster, posting bunk?? Whatever man. You are right, i did know it wasn't a W-30 but is it a crime to try and find out all I can about a car I purchased and learn something along the way? I find the whole story of the car very interesting, scars and all. In fact, i recently heard from the guy that built the car way back, via this post, and learned all kinds of good info about its history that i found very interesting. Sorry if my opinion rubs you the wrong way sir but I can agree to respectfully disagree.
exactly, can’t we have different opinions and a back and forth dialogue that promotes the muscle car world as a whole.. if we only knew how many cars were fake in the Corvette world in the 426 hemi world in the SS 396 or LS six, 454 world and so on and so on we would be blown away completely. That’s just the way it is unfortunately I’m not saying I agree with it. I have two cars and I did lotta due diligence to make sure they were correct, will everybody do that? Probably not some just want to car. What can I say
I asked that question, no answer. But you are the man that showed me you could buy that whole body.. same thing with what us now called a track pack car.. What is it?
A track pack has nothing to do with a body in white. A body in white is simply a complete body shell that was sold thru GMPD for the purpose of fixing a damaged car. A track pack car is one that has all of the required OAI parts installed to make it a W-30. Of course it's not a real W-30 but serves the same purpose.
Last edited by 66-3X2 442; July 4th, 2023 at 03:13 PM.
A track pack has nothing to do with a body in white. A body in white is simply a complete body shell that was sold thru GMPD for the purpose of fixing a damaged car. A track pack car is one that has all of the required OAI parts installed to make it a W-30. Of course it's not a real W-30 but serves the same purpose.
Read my post. It addresses track pack AND the whole body. Gotta keep up old man.. lol
At least in 1966-67 GM and Olds Engineering, as well as NHRA, considered the W30 conversions to be real, just not factory builds. Things that are being called sacred on this thread, at least for those model years where the 4-4-2 was not its own "line," were merely options. The L69, L78, W29 were options and all the parts were available through GMPD. You could buy a complete Tri-Carb engine, suspension parts, emblems, W30 components and complete conversion kit, etc. How is a car "real" if you add one option but not real if you add another? I feel that "real" is the wrong term--factory or dealer/owner added is the accurate description of the options. I can show you in the parts book group 10.001 where you could order a body in the white, and also the part numbers to add every part of a "real" car to your 66 F85 6-cylinder except the cowl tag and the VIN plate. Yes, it would be a conversion. but it would not be a hologram instead of a correctly assembled car. What if the car has a body in the white in effect that was originally a 6-cylinder body, but with a genuine 4-4-2 frame, fenders, engine, etc.? Oh, and what makes the frame "genuine" when GMPD shows the same part number for all the frames (two numbers, either regular or convertible/F35) from 6-cylinder through W30? I think some people are attaching extra "authenticity" beyond what Olds Engineering and GM did originally.
Last edited by Run to Rund; July 5th, 2023 at 07:58 AM.
At least in 1966-67 GM and Olds Engineering, as well as NHRA, considered the W30 conversions to be real, just not factory builds. Things that are being called sacred on this thread, at least for those model years where the 4-4-2 was not its own "line," was merely an option. The L69, L78, W29 were options and all the parts were available through GMPD. You could buy a complete Tri-Carb engine, suspension parts, emblems, W30 components and complete conversion kit, etc. How is a car "rea" if you add one option but not real if you add another? I feel that "real" is the wrong term--factory or dealer/owner added is the accurate description of the options. I can show you not only group 10.001 where you could order a body in the white, and also the part numbers to add every part of a "real" car to your 66 F85 6-cylinder except the cowl tag and the VIN plate. Yes, it would be a conversion. but it would not be a hologram instead of a correctly assembled car. What if the car has a body in the white in effect that was originally a 6-cylinder body, but with a genuine 4-4-2 frame, fenders, engine, etc.? Oh, and what makes the frame "genuine" when GMPD shows the same part number for all the frames (two numbers, either regular or convertible/F35) from 6-cylinder through W30? I think some people are attaching extra "authenticity" beyond what Olds Engineering and GM did originally.
You have really stepped in it Dad. How dare you say that a car assembled with parts available thru GMPD would be a "real" car. That doesn't fit the narrative of the Nancy's here. But I am proud to call you my Dad anyway.
At least in 1966-67 GM and Olds Engineering, as well as NHRA, considered the W30 conversions to be real, just not factory builds. Things that are being called sacred on this thread, at least for those model years where the 4-4-2 was not its own "line," were merely options. The L69, L78, W29 were options and all the parts were available through GMPD. You could buy a complete Tri-Carb engine, suspension parts, emblems, W30 components and complete conversion kit, etc. How is a car "real" if you add one option but not real if you add another? I feel that "real" is the wrong term--factory or dealer/owner added is the accurate description of the options. I can show you in the parts book group 10.001 where you could order a body in the white, and also the part numbers to add every part of a "real" car to your 66 F85 6-cylinder except the cowl tag and the VIN plate. Yes, it would be a conversion. but it would not be a hologram instead of a correctly assembled car. What if the car has a body in the white in effect that was originally a 6-cylinder body, but with a genuine 4-4-2 frame, fenders, engine, etc.? Oh, and what makes the frame "genuine" when GMPD shows the same part number for all the frames (two numbers, either regular or convertible/F35) from 6-cylinder through W30? I think some people are attaching extra "authenticity" beyond what Olds Engineering and GM did originally.
Perfectly said.. i like the term factory or dealer/owner added as a clarification point. Thank you Rund
I enjoy every minute of every day. Trust me. I am right though. It's not just an opinion. The defenders of fake here blows me away. It's not just an opinion it's fact. If you have the money and you want to support fake **** then it's ok. Cheers to volo cars 👍🍻
I enjoy every minute of every day. Trust me. I am right though. It's not just an opinion. The defenders of fake here blows me away. It's not just an opinion it's fact. If you have the money and you want to support fake **** then it's ok. Cheers to volo cars 👍🍻
I spoke to the gentleman who built this car back in the 70's, 80's and he verified it was originally a 442. Ya never know with a Freemont car but he was very sincere and open and I have no reason not to believe him. He reached out to me in fact, and we had a long, car guys discussion. The W30 parts presented themselves by way of a junk yard guy that salvaged them and made them available at the right time. I have 4 pages of notes from our conversation but the jist is as follows.
Original 442
drive train from a 68 442 that had bad body but good DT.
E block added later by another owner with C heads.
Never wrecked, minor body rust so good candidate for resto
Originally 4 speed converted to turbo 400 auto floor shift
Original Saffron Yellow with pearl yellow interior, brown dash. (now all black)
Originally had Black vinyl top
NO power brakes, power steering, windows, All added.
3:91 Pontiac rear may be original. No proof.
I could go on but this is the main bullets. I am thrilled to have touched base with the original builder and appreciate him reaching out.
I spoke to the gentleman who built this car back in the 70's, 80's and he verified it was originally a 442. Ya never know with a Freemont car but he was very sincere and open and I have no reason not to believe him. He reached out to me in fact, and we had a long, car guys discussion. The W30 parts presented themselves by way of a junk yard guy that salvaged them and made them available at the right time. I have 4 pages of notes from our conversation but the jist is as follows.
Original 442
drive train from a 68 442 that had bad body but good DT.
E block added later by another owner with C heads.
Never wrecked, minor body rust so good candidate for resto
Originally 4 speed converted to turbo 400 auto floor shift
Original Saffron Yellow with pearl yellow interior, brown dash. (now all black)
Originally had Black vinyl top
NO power brakes, power steering, windows, All added.
3:91 Pontiac rear may be original. No proof.
I could go on but this is the main bullets. I am thrilled to have touched base with the original builder and appreciate him reaching out.
Thats fantastic..always cool to learn the history.
June 26th, 2023, 06:59 AM
