Getting ready to begin restoration on 65 Delta 88. The car has a Muncie 4 speed which appears to be factory. I am trying to determine if any of the #s on the trim tag or VIN comfirm this as being factory installed.

7B
ST65-35837
BODY BK3364
TR 326
PAINT LL
ACC 2-16

VIN 358375X######

Any infor appreciated.
Ralph

 

It most likely started off in life as a three speed.

 

Curt Anderson has a 66 Dynamic 88 with factory Muncie 4 speed.

 

Did you check the VIN stamp on the transmission? (Did they have VIN stamps on the transmissions in '65? I'm more of a 68-72 specialist...)
Terry

 

Well, I am always open to learn new stuff like this.This must be rare!

 

My factory 4 speed 1965 Jetstar I has a "2L" code on the cowl tag, much as the Lansing built A-body 4 speed cars from that era do. Same was true of a prev. '65 Starfire factory 4-speeder I owned. Assuming you posted all the cowl tag info. correctly, yours does not apear to be a Lansing built car (the "BK" throws me off?), so the missing "2L" code is not definitive.

Regarding the trans, if factory, it will be a long-tail Muncie M20 (pretty much HAS to be a long-tailsfaft trans to fit in the car/extend to the driveshaft. The speedo gear drive fitting on the passenger side will have a cap/plate with a single (I think) a set screw holding it on (these were used on the big Olds cars since the speedos were driven off the driver's front wheel).

I'll leave serial numbers and date codes to those more knowledgable than myself (or with more direct access to the info, as I forgot/misplaced this!). I will say that there would be no VIN derivite codes on the trans for your year car. If the date code can be determined to be reasonable based on the car's build date, this may be more (if not definitive) evidence that it is original to the car.

As for whether or not it was a 4 speeder from the factory, in absence of direct proof based on the cowl tag, I'd say look at the steering column for any evidence of 3 on the tree or auto trans linkage...if missing, its most likely a factory 4 speed car. Also telling would be if the accelerator linkage on the firewall side has a electric stator control or not (manual trans cars would not have this). As is often the case, if you do not know the history of the car ior have documentation, in absence of evidence it could have been converted from a 3 to 4 speed manual car, or even from auto to 4 speed manual.

By the way, if your shifter looks like The one below, it is also very likely a factory 4 speed car (as this shifter was unique to 4 speed Olds application).

 

Hully jayzus, a 4-speed Delta with a woodgrain wheel..... Slobber smiley anyone?

Lansing, told ya guys here would have info.

Scott, BK is a Kansas City/Fairfax body number.

 

Thanks to all!
rocketraider, you were certainly correct. This is THE place to be for Olds info!!
alienstatemybuick, my shifter looks exactly like the one in your picture. I will check the rest when I get home from work.
Thanks again!

 

Ralph, I would say that the shifter handle looking like that about clinches it as being a factory 4 speed car. If you don't already have one, the 1965 Oldsmobile owner's manual covering the fullsize cars (Ninety Eight, Starfire, Delta, Dynamic 88, Jetstar 1 and Jetstar 88) depicts the 4 speed shifter, in case you encounter naysayers who say it never happened.

If you can find the trans date code and it is shortly before the July build data of your car, it would proably clinch it for even the biggest skeptic. Also, if the car still has its orginal radiator, the passenger side tank will not have any provision for transmission cooling lines, another tell-tale sign I forgot to mention before.

Now PLEASE post some pictures of your car! Also, let us know what color the air cleaner is and what the air cleaner pie plate says (if the factory pieces are still there) and if it has a 4 bbl carb and/or true dual exhaust. Posi tag on the read end? Inquiring minds and all that...

-Scott

 

Same settup as my '66 Starfire minus the console. Does your car, (either car) have the Starfire engine?

 

That VIN, by the way, decodes as a 1965 Delta 88 2-door (Holiday) hardtop built at Fairfax, Kansas. But you probably knew all this (except for maybe the Fairfax, Kansas part).

 

Cool to hear about another Delta. I have a 66 with bench seat and 4spd. I just heard about another 66 so equipped in Canada. Some pictures of my extra trans and shifter.

 

My trans looks exactly like the one posted by Oldsmaniac. In fact the sheet metal tag has the same # (386888) Also has 3851325 cast into the passenger side and a Patent # of 3088336. Stamped into the lip where the trans joins the tail shaft is P0609. The speedo gear drive fitting has the same cap with one screw holding it on. The Steering column shows no signs of ever having a automatic or 3 speed shifter on it and there is nothing under the dash that would indicate anything other than the 4 speed.
As for rear end, I found no tag to indicate a posi, but found these #s 8778080, and F3 6. I am not sure about the 3 in the F3 6.
The air cleaner is orange but unfortunately it has no pie plate. The engine is red or orange, but a different shade than the air cleaner. It is a 2 bbl carb.
The car does have dual exhaust but I am unsure whether it is a "true" dual exhaust.
Jetty6: the donor car I have has the 425 ci 2 bbl with automatic. It is in another shop at the present time. Will let you know when I have a chance to go check it out. Both of these cars run great, so at some point I will have a 425 and auto for sale........or another builder?? We'll see how this one goes!

 

One more picture.

 

Ralph, the date code on the trans you posted (PO609) I believe indicates June 09th, i.e. it was built the month before your car. Pretty consitent with it being original to the car.

Orange air cleaner means its a hi-comp engine. I am not sure about the axle codes you posted, but to tell the ratio without taking off the cover, I think you'd need to find a 2 letter code, usually on the passenger side axle housing, and usually next to if not impossible to find with 40 years of rust, corrosion and grime.

True dual exhaust means the exhaust on the driver's side will exit at the rear of the engine, as opposed to dumping out in the middle of the exhaust manifold, where it would crossover to the passenger side (sometimes people rig up a way to route this into a pipe on the driver's side).

Here's what a factory dual exhaust manifold would look like (I'd be surprised if your car came that way new with a 2 bbl however):

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1965-...Q5fAccessories

 

I am pretty sure my extra trans is out of a 65. A true dual exhaust car would have a left side ex manifold with a turn in it to clear steering box but would not have a 2bbl carb originally. A red orange air cleaner would be for a high compression engine.

You may get lucky and find a build sheet atop the gas tank or a broadcast sheet between the rear seat springs bottom and that may prove what is original but looks like your 95% there already.

 

Thanks again all, this site is awesome!!

With the new info I have gained: no it is not a true dual exhaust car.

Jetty6: no neither of my engines is the Starfire eng. (Learning as I go, sorry!)

I will definiately be checking for the build sheet or broadcast sheet as I get into the teardown.

Now I need to know if I need to take pains to get it back to absolutely bone stock correct, (i.e. how rare is it?) Or can things like AC and dual exhaust be added without damage to the value? I'll be posting these and other ?s in the Genral discussion area.

Thanks,
Ralph

 

Will try to post pics this weekend.
Right now I'm just alltogether too busy searching this forum for info!!!

She's not much to look at right now, but before pics will be good for later before and after!

 

Looking forward to the pics. As for what you do with it, obviously its your car BUT if it were me, I'd probably keep it stock, and even return it to single exhaust. Or MAYBE I'd get one of the correct dual exhaust manifolds, an original or a reproduction one like the one I linked to on Ebay above. I might even convert it to 4 bll, but honestly, if I were to do that, I'd likely get a '66 or later intake manifold and run a Quadrajet rather than the "squarebore" 4GC carb that is correct for '65...got one of those on my car, and its a pain in the ***. As for AC, again your car, your call. No matter what you do, you probably won't hurt the value much as long as you keep all the original parts. Original is nice. Then again so's a 4bbl and duals!

One last thing: you asked how rare the car is. You car is EXCEEDINGLY rare. Factory 4 speed fullsize cars represented the merest fraction of total production. I think if you added up every '64-'66 factory 4 speed B-body Olds that is known to remain by those who follows such things, the number may be less than two dozen (that total includes everything from Starfires, Jetstar Is, Deltas, Dynamics and small-block equipped Jetstar 88s). Of course, cars like yours turn up, and add to the "known" list, but they don't turn up very often. Yours is only the second extant 4 speed '65 Delta specifically that I can recall hearing of.

 

Thanks for the info lansing. I only asked if it might be a Starfire engine in that the your "88" with the 4-speed would have been a special order and in 65-67 Olds was more flexible in ordering the 370/375 horse 425 in a variety of models. In other words, some "98"s were ordered with the Starfire and I have heard that "88"s were too. Just because it has a 2bbl. manifold and carb does not mean it wasn't a 4bbl. originally. Get a shop manual for your project and it will give you the codes and specifics on alot of things.
Good luck with your Olds, it sounds like a fun project.

 

Gotta LOVE big cars (and wagons) with 4-speeds!!!

 

Well, my thoughts today tell me that I have been lucky enough to find a pretty original car, that is pretty rare and who am I to change that?
I am going to go back as original as possible right down to the single exhaust.
After all, I have an extra engine, etc., who knows, maybe a not so rare car will turn up later that I can satisfy my old hot rodding habits with!!

 

I think your interest in maintaining originality is commendable. However, I also don't think you should worry too much about making changes if they can be reversed. If you take out the original engine and put in something else, but you keep the original engine and can put it back if you ever wanted to, then no harm done. The car is not original when you change the engine, of course, but it can be put back to original.

Same with, for example, the paint job. Paint it candy-apple red with purple polka dots if you want. The car can always be repainted in its original color.

The bottom line is, as long as you don't change the car's ability to be returned to original condition, change it however you like to suit your own interests and desires.

 

NOW you're talking...that's probably what I would do if I were me.

 

Ten years from now, you will probably find that restoring it to original and with the original engine, etc. was the best. Saving major components under the tarp results in "never" using them and "never" having your restored car correct and the way you really want it. The only major deviation from that would be if you were going to wear out stuff or blow it up racing, and you won't do that, will you? Realistically, the car will/should be used "sparingly" for fun and shows, not beaten as a daily driver that is subjected to being smashed by moronic drivers of expendable commuter cars.

 

I think I'd at least put on the correct LH dual exhaust manifold and run proper dual exhaust, angle cut and just barely peeking out from under the bumper. Not enough to be in your face, but enough to realise that maybe this big car means bizness.

4-speed and single exhaust is just weenie-fied. Makes ya wonder what whoever ordered the car was thinking.

 

I wonder too why some cars are equipped as they are. In this case I would guess that the buyer wanted a 4spd but was not interested in the go fast/performance options available. I am assuming this car is a bench seat car and was equipped with the standard HC 2bbl engine.
As for my 66 delta 4spd car it does have the original 375HP Sfire option engine but no posi. I am guessing the buyer had performance in mind but probably could not come up with the extra cash for the posi or maybe bucket seats. He did not go for power brakes but did go for a reverb AM radio....one can only guess...

 

Who knows what one may have been thinking back in '65/66? Remember, high performance was just starting to come into being around those years. Some older man, maybe even a farmer, used to shifting a manual and maybe still not trusting an automatic, I could easily see such a order.
The way gearheads think now is light years from the way people of those days thought about cars in general. In most cases hotrods were for kids.

 

Not all cars were special ordered. Of the maybe 25 cars I've owned only one was a special order, all the rest were bought "off the lot". So the factory probably built some with strange combinations because those were parts they had on hand and wanted to use up. Now days with "just in tme" delivery of parts that won't happen. Today if you want certain items you have to order "packages". some of which are kind of strange. The chrome package on my GMC includes chrome bumpers & wheels but also tow hooks & fog lights. What does that have to do with chrome? Another option package included cruise, power locks and deep tinted glass. Those three items don"t seem related to me.
Also, today you can't even get a manual tranny on a truck but in the 60"s you could order a Olds 98 with a 3-speed. Things have sure changed.

 

I think the manufacturers do this to hold down costs. If every option were available separately, which was more common back in the '60s and '70s, then the number of different ways an individual car could be configured would be very high. With three or four option packages, the number of ways a car could be configured is only three or four. That's easier to manage.

Of course, I don't really think that the manufacturers do this to hold down costs. I think they do it because it forces the buyer to pay a bit more for options because the only way to get the options you want is by getting an entire option package.

Nonetheless, I can see the manufacturing efficiencies that come about by having only a few different versions of a product. Remember Henry Ford? "You can have any color Model T you like, as long as you like black."

 

I'm bound to think a 4-speed big car would have been an order and not an inventory car. Lot of Olds dealers didn't want to order anything like that without a big deposit or contract because they figured it would be a hard sell and they might get stuck with it if the order fell thru.

The ones here were funny about ordering stripper Oldsmobiles for that reason. They left that market to Chevy, Ford and Plymouth.

Sure am glad some folks ordered them though!

 

Cell phone pics. "Slightly" better than nothing!

 

Car looks remarkably untouched under the hood...maybe I spot a more "modern" fuel pump.

Very cool!

 

The car when I first tried to start it up had a pinhole leak in the original fuel line where it ducks under the A arm. I wound up replacing the fuel pump before I found that the pinhole was the problem. So I have the original fuel pump (which is still good). Of course if I were to re-install it during the rebuild, it would probably crap out as soon as I got 5 miles away from home!!

 

I have nothing to add other than I'm fascinated with a 4 speed big car hardtop, er 'Holiday'....particularly a floor shift! Keep us posted !

 

I have something to add, I wish my Delta would have been ordered with a 4 speed, and maybe bucket seats!

 

Well only 65 and 66 Deltas could be ordered with the 4spd... Only thing yours could have had is 3spd standard trans on the column.

 

I'm jealous!!!!!

 

Thanks guys. I feel very lucky to have wound up with it. It caught my eye sitting at a defunct car repair shop barely visible from the road. (My wife says I can smell a 2dr hardtop!) When I stopped by to look at it after work I was dumbstruck when I saw the floor shifter. I figured someone must have stuck it in. "Hmmmmmm, door's unlocked....yep..it's a 4 speed,,,man someone did a really nice job.......well no gunfire or sirens yet,,lets just pop the hood......" Followed by ten minutes of head scratching, crawling underneath, looking for a flashlight, heavy breathing.....followed by the owner showing up and saying, yes he would like to sell it.....followed by the "so called voice of sanity" 'It's too rough....you'll never get it done.....so what if you never imagined they were built this way.....it's just too big.....motor's probably locked up anyway......Followed by...Sure, you can see if it'll run, I just found it out back of this guys barn, but I also bought a 61 Impala bubble top, and I can't work on two......followed by...plugs, points, gas, fuel pump, gas line pinhole.........Followed by...rrrrr,rrrrr, vvrrrrrooooommmmm,chuckle, chickle,chuckle,chuckle.....The freakin thing even sat there at a fast idle until I blipped the throttle, releasing the choke!!!!! followed by....the dreaded phone call to the wife......the trying to pretend I didn't really want it......the "Oh, that's way too much.............What's that? a clean title????.......Yes, Yes I can give it to you in cash"......And so it begins!!

As you guys might have noticed, I am more than a little excited about this car!! Especially after rocketraider referred me here and I began to find out about all the collective knowledge found here. I can pull this off!!with this much help!!

Teardown has begun. I will be posting a new thread over in major builds, projects, probably on Mon.
THANKS AGAIN GUYS!!

 

Did Olds/GM still issue "Protect-O-Plates" that year? If so, it should have the trans id data on it, which would indicate how the car left the factory.

I know that my '60 Olds left the factory with a manual 3-speed, because my brother ordered it that way!