No evil deed goes unpunished... Mister!

 

Sorry for the delay Eddie, here are the measurements of the $59 rad:

Width at its widest point is 35" - the driver's side tank bulges out by the hose fitting (which is 1.5" diameter)

Width otherwise is 34 & 3/4"

Overall height is 18 & 7/8" - that is to the top of the flanges on the tanks

Height at top of tanks 18 & 3/4"

Depth at the widest point is 3 & 11/16" at the tank flanges

Depth of the tanks is 3 & 1/4"

Core dimensions are :

W 28 & 1/2"

H 18 & 3/8"

D 2.5"

Lower tube has both a 1.75 & 1.5" fitting, the smaller can be cut off

 

[QUOTE=Magna86;932342]I'm not sure why this is still an issue. To swap a 4 core in you just need to buy a 4 core radiator plate and new saddles with cushions.

There is no difference in the core supports just the top plates and saddles.

That is NOT correct, here is proof, this is the damage the side supports did to the rad while I attempted to install it:

 

this is why I have not used AZ A161:

 

I'll point out that if you go to the AutoZone website and look for a 2328 motor mount for a 1970 Cutlass with 455, it also indicates that the part does not fit...

 

Have you considered checking the measurements of the $59 radiator and your original radiator against the measurements listed on the same AutoZone page that you posted, to see whether it would fit?

- Eric

 

This is a single row radiator. Even in aluminum, I don't think I'd use this one on a 455. The higher capacity aluminum radiators I've seen use two 1" or 1.25" tubes, not one.

 

[QUOTE=MDchanic;932882]Have you considered checking the measurements of the $59 radiator and your original radiator against the measurements listed on the same AutoZone page that you posted, to see whether it would fit?

Yes, it doesn't give the overall width, just the core width. The guy at AutoZone was nice enough to order it for me so I could go up there today and look at it before buying it this time. He took the other one back also.

I noticed yesterday when measuring my current rad that is doesn't seem to be touching anything on the sides, it that how it is supposed to be? It's also tilted from front to back so that the top if it sits more towards the rear than the bottom does:

 

The radiator is only held at the top and bottom saddles. There should be nothing touching on the sides. The saddles have rubber isolators. If the metal touched on the sides, it would eventually rub through the side tanks.

 

OK, good to know, thanks Joe.

 

Back in the 80s I installed the 4-row radiator from my brother-in-law's 1968 GTO into my 1970 Cutlass and all I had to go was flatten the top and bottom saddles - it fit perfectly width-wise. If that $59 radiator contacts the sides of the core support then is not the correct width for your application or your vehicle has experienced some type of "issue" that decreased the width of the core support.

 

So this is turning out to be the longest project in the history of radiator swaps.

So I drove my car a couiple of times while waiting on the 3rd rardiator to arrive and found it kept tossing belts. Problem was that the flange on the water pump shaft is now sitting on the shaft at an angle so the pulley is wobbly. This is no doubt the result of my fan clutch swap, but in any case I ordered a new water pump.

I have a 70 with a 455 with a/c and auto trans, so I got a water pump using that information and now the pulleys don't line up. The engine is apparently from a later year model so I don't know what year to use when looking for parts. Additionally, I don't know if the a/c, power steering, and alternator came with my car or with the donor engine, though I assume the latter.

In any case, does anyone know for certain if I can just get a different pulley? Or should I just go back to AutoZone and get a pump for a later year model? I would love to just get a pulley that would work but am doubtful such a simple swap exists. Does anyone know?

If I have to go get another water pump, how will I know what year to use? I could have sworn that I verified the shaft length was the same but clearly I did not, I'll have to do a better job of that I suppose.

I was hoping this swap would work out since the pump I got has a much larger impeller, check it out:

 

I replied in your other thread to be aware of the different size hose fittings.
From the pics it looks as if you have different sizes.

 

Yes you or someone had mentioned that earlier, thanks. Going to go back to Auto Zone this morning to get a pump for a later model, fingers crossed she might finally be running this evening, (just in time for a heat wave...)

Seems like Joe has often made a point that I am finally beginning to embrace, we can't trust that a part is a fit just because the AutoZone website says it is. I'm bringing the old pump with me this time and I'm going to compare the shafts before leaving the store.

On the radiator, I finally found a replacement radiator from Brothers Automotive that dropped right in. I thought it was interesting that the transmission lines weren't in exactly the same spots but I was able to connect them anyway.

 

It seems to me that that changed somewhere in the early '70s, but someone else may know the exact dates - the lines are bendable, and can be connected, but it seems like an odd thing to change. Maybe there was one new model somewhere in GM's lineup that needed them in a different place, so they just retooled everything?

- Eric

 

Mine were not cooperating much (not very flexible) but luckily it wasn't too much difference. The rad from Brothers is like the one that a few of us bought from Rock Auto, in that it seems to have started life as a universal replacement, but the Chevy nipple came blocked off and unlike the one from Rock, it's the exact same dimensions as my original so it dropped right in.

Well guys, I finally got it all put back together and am about to drive up to meet my mom for dinner. New radiator, belts, water pump, thermostat, fan clutch, and new upper rad hose, and all but one new heater hoses, fresh coolant, topped off the tranny fluid. Here goes nothin', wish me luck!

And thanks for all the helpful tips and advice!

 

Good luck!

- Eric

 

Ugh!!! Same exact problem, temp just keeps creeping up as I drive it, doesn't matter if it's stop and go or long straightaways. Got up to 210 in just minutes last night, all those new parts and the behavior is totally unchanged. I put 4 gallons of coolant in it, so I think it's full.

What now?

 

Hmmmmmm... A conundrum.

I've had the same problem, many years ago, and sold the car.

I'm not kidding.


It seems to me that the one thing that you haven't done is to clean out the block and heads.
It is possible for an engine to develop a tremendous amount of rusty goop inside of the water passages, especially if it was left sitting with too much water:coolant ratio for a long time at any time over the past half century.

What I have done in the past when taking the engine out of the car is to put it on the stand with one bank's head gasket surface level, taped up the water pump flange surfaces, and filled it with straight muriatic acid and left it for a few days, then flushed and repeated for the other side.
This is risky with the engine assembled, though, as the acid may erode the steel shim head gaskets.

Have you tried any of the "coolant flush" compounds?
Have you flushed it with the block drain plugs removed?

Are you certain that the combination of pulleys you have installed are as original, and that you are not underdriving your water pump?

You are now in very tricky, and frustrating, territory, and I, for one, am very interested in finding out what finally fixes this for you.

- Eric

 

I am hoping that was 2 gallons of antifreeze/coolant and 2 gallons of water for a 50/50 mix. Just checking to make sure as using the stuff at 100% concentration will cause overheating.

 

What an adventure LOL... I am not yet working on installing the core support , I just find it hard to believe all this issue !

 

Did you ever connect the vacuum advance to straight manifold vacuum and not ported? Have you verified initial timing? Have you looked at the plugs and verified that the carb isn't jetted lean?

 

I did the best I could in flushing it out. I used a flush chemical. When the water pump was off I put a hose up to the inlet and the outlet and ran water through the block until it came out clear. I even got my shop vac out and got as much water out as I could. the water in the shop vac was pretty rusty, but not sludgy. Have not taken the freeze plugs out. Not sure about the pulleys but the seem to work with the new belts etc.

 

Yes, 4 @ 50/50

 

I have not Joe. I got the kit but realized that the solenoid is missing, probably got tossed when they put the Edelbrock intake manifold on. Thought about initial timing but have no idea how to check it. Carb I am almost certain is not set up properly, which is definitely out of my league, any idea who I could take it to for that?

 

This would be a good idea.

I have not had before-and-after experiences with different amounts and qualities of sludge to be able to make predictions of how much difference a given amount will make, but I do know that I have removed drain plugs and had no water at all come out, until I pushed a stiff wire up into the holes and broke up compacted rust sludge for several inches.



This is your first step.

- Eric

 

Well, for starters, simply connect the vac advance hose directly to manifold vacuum and cap the ported vacuum opening it currently uses. This will increase your idle speed, so you may need to turn that down. It may also cause pinging at part throttle until you properly set the initial timing. It is, however, a very quick and dirty thing to try to see if it helps with overheating.

 

Joe you mean the port that is on the F shaped thing sticking out of the manifold or the other port on the carb?

 

Any port with manifold vacuum is equivalent. Right now, the one on the carb is probably the easiest to use. Go back and look at the diagram in Post #22 in this thread.

 

Yes I was just looking at that post but wasn't sure if you meant to just move the hose from the one port on the carb to the other or to move it to the thing on the manifold. So I will just move it to the different port on the carb, DO the other ports need to be capped? The ones on the F shaped thing?

 

Yes, the unused ports on the carb need to be capped. If by "F-shaped thing" you mean the thermal vacuum switch that screws into the cooling passage, if it has no hoses connected to it then you don't need to cap any of it's ports.

 

Yes, the switch. The middle fitting is capped off already.
I swapped the vacuum line, it actually made no difference in the idle speed. I switched it while it was running right when I started it cold. I could hear the hissing from the vacuum when I removed the cap from the manifold vacuum, but there was no hissing from the ported vacuum once I moved those hose and before I capped it. Not sure if that matters but thought it was odd.
Anyway, made no difference at in either how it ran or with the steady temperature climb. I drive about 7 miles down the GW Parkway on a relatively fair evening with no red lights going about 45 mph and the temp just steadily climbed as I went along, up to about 215. Made sure the rad was full both before I got going and after I came home. Funny thing is when I shut it off at the 7-11, the temp jumped up, but when I got it home and left it running while I put the top up, it actually cooled back down to about 190 before I shut it off.
I suppose the only thing left is the initial timing or sludge in the block?
Funny thing is, it wasn't doing this before I started jacking with all the ignition components. I replaced everything; coil, points/condenser, cap, rotor, wires, plugs then set the dwell at 28 and timing at about 12 degrees btdc. I wonder if it just needs to have the timing advance dropped back down a bit? Won't hurt to try before I throw in the towel and go drop a grand or two at a shop I guess.

 

Actually I just looked back at my June 11 post on the ignition project and before I touched anything I noted:
"Dwell was around 16 and the timing was right at the top of the timing marker. "
So I guess the timing is not the issue? Dwell is now 28 and timing 12BTDC and its doing the same thing.

 

Coming late to this and did not read the entire thread.
Had a overheat problem due to bad gas once.
How old is your gas?

 

Wow, are you serious? Never heard of that. Gas is fresh, I put some Sta-bil type additive in When I gassed up about two weeks ago because I knew it might be a while between fill ups since it's kind of a Sunday driver

 

Nope, that's normal operation.



You've got it backward.

Advancing the timing improves cooling, by getting the hot burned gasses out of the cylinders more efficiently.
Retarding the timing leads to overheating.

- Eric

 

Good to know, thanks Eric! I suppose that's why initial timing had been suggested.

 

I can't remember if somewhere in this thread I asked how many rows of tubes and how many fins per inch these radiators have. Over the years I noticed that a lot of aftermarket radiators have fewer tubes and fins than factory units, which means they don't have the same cooling capability.

For a few years I had a thicker 4 row HD radiator in my car and it always ran warm. Eventually I had the original 3 row radiator rebuilt with a high efficiency core (more tubes and fins than original) and the running warm issues were gone.

 

Well guys, I took the car over to a local shop, the mechanic there thinks I might have a blown head gasket. He said that the plugs had carbon on them, (they are almost brand new, less that 200 miles), there is condensation coming from the exhausts and that the sputtering is likely due to the coolant getting in the combustion chambers. He said that his heat measuring tool showed the block temps to be within about 5 degrees of each other everywhere he measured, so he doesn't think the water journals are clogged. He said the upper radiator hose is tighter than it should be, and that he think this is due to the compression from the cylinders getting pushed into the cooling system via the blown head gasket.

Everything else checked out. He said he could replace the head gaskets for just under $1000 if there are no issues with the heads. He gave me a bottle of Alumaseal radiator stop leak and told me to give that a try to see if that would work well enough so that I could get another year or two out of the motor.

If I go that route, seems like I may as well just replace them with better heads since I have the J heads. Problem with going this route is that I don't have a lot of confidence that new heads won't just exacerbate some other issue, like weak rings.

Jasper crate motor would be 6k plus labor with 3 year warranty. That seems really high but I'm sure if I were to go get an inexpensive GM crate motor that I'd run into a number of costs around swapping in a Chevy 350.

What do you guys think? What would you do?

Thanks,

 

I would find a mechanic who will run a leakdown test to prove conclusively that there is or isn't a blown head gasket before doing anything else.