Does this car still have it's original timing chain in it?

 

They should open completely as the top of the cam. Did you change the condenser? You need to ohm out the black wire the runs from the points to the coil - terminal for continuity. You need to ohm out the plate that the points are mounted to ground.

 

Thanks for the video! I'll run the test that way and will also run the other test to the distributor. And I am aware, its just easier to test the coil when its out of the vehicle as its a little awkward to reach the posts and keep everything clear. The wires tend to migrate back to the terminals even when disconnected.

And I'm not sure about the timing chain. I purchased the car around 17 years ago and was told that the engine had been rebuilt 30k miles prior so I'd guess its a different timing chain. Its been running strong since I bought it. It was running perfectly smooth before I stalled out and now I can't get it started.

The points are open completely when it is at the top of the cam position and close completely when the cam rotates past the top. I did change the condenser when I changed the points. Both the one on the ignition coil and in the distributor. I will check the resistance at all the mentions places. Do I check the resistance with the key in the ignition turned to power? Or when its cranking?

 

I have just tested the resistance of the ignition coil and it is showing from + to - 2.3 ohms and from + to center 11.23k ohms. Which is the same when I measured from - to center. It does seem to change each time i measure it to the center by a small margin. Is that normal? It is raining pretty heavily at the moment so I'll preform the other tests tomorrow.

 

Thanks for repeating that test. Based on your measurements it would suggest the IGN coil is good. As suggested earlier, insert (plug in) the ignition coil wire into the top of the IGN coil and measure the ohms (resistance) at the end of the ignition coil wire (which is the end of the ignition coil wire that would insert into the top of the distributor).

 

BTW, w/ the ignition coil wire removed, check continuity of the coil wire itself. I don't believe you've done this yet (or, if you did I missed it).

 

Hello All,

I finally broke down and took it to a mechanic. After replacing every part I could, checking all the resistance for all the wire and still not getting a spark, I was at a loss. The mechanic just called and said the distributor is just worn out. The central shaft is too worn out to properly create the necessary gap for the spark (which I'm skeptical of because I set the gap using a feeler gauge and had room to adjust). He recommend I remove the old distributor and change it with an electronic HEI distributor. Before I give them the go-ahead to do so, I wanted to get your knowledge on the matter. He said the electronic is hassle free where as the old point system is always needing maintenance. I've had that car from 17 years and I've only replaced the point once aside from this and its always run extremely smooth, up until it stalled out. Which is another reason I'm skeptical. Shouldn't it have failed slowly, started sputtering or having trouble starting over time and not just all of a sudden stop working? Let me know what you all think!

 

How old is this mechanic ? Ask him how much side play the distributor shaft has in thousanths of an inch.
Those "old points distributors" are as reliable as you can get. Try to find a good "used" distributor and you are back in business. Just plug your spark plug wires in, time it and you are ready to go. Someone on here probably has what you need for a very reasonable price.
Your distributor can be re-bushed (rebuilt) by a competent rebuilder and be as good as new. And lastly, set the points with a dwell meter, not a feeler gauge.
Why go through the hassle of changing to an HEI ? New distributor, new spark plug wires and working around the fusible link ?
....Just my two cents worth.

 

This isn't even worth arguing about. Use a spark tester. Either the ignition system makes a spark or it doesn't. If it does, the "mechanic" is full of beans.

 

[QUOTE=joe_padavano;1539907]This isn't even worth arguing about. Use a spark tester. Either the ignition system makes a spark or it doesn't. If it does, the "mechanic" is full of beans.

The car won't spark. That's been my issue. I've tested the ignition coil which is good, I've checked the battery, I've checked the resistance from the ignition coil spark wire to the distributor and it's reading the correct ohms. I've changed the points and condensers along with the wires from the batter and starter. But nothing has helped it spark. I bought a dwell meter to adjust the points but the dwell wouldn't even read a spark to set the dwell. It could very well be that the distributor has failed. But the way it did has me questioning.

 

If you crank the engine with the distributor cap off, can you watch the points open and close?
Did you verify that the point plate that the points sit on is grounded? Because this plate moves with the vacuum advance, there is a wire that is spot welded to the point plate and screwed to the distributor body. The spot weld has been known to break over the years.

Look, the bottom line is that the points are simply a mechanical switch that is supposed to open and close between the negative terminal of the coil and ground. With a powered test light you can very easily see if this circuit actually conducts to ground or not when the points are closed, and if the circuit opens when the points are open. This isn't rocket science, it's an on/off switch. Your mechanic simply doesn't want to take the time to troubleshoot, and frankly has likely never worked with points before.

 

If you read through the thread, all of this has been covered. It would take a lot of shaft play to keep the points from opening and closing enough to not produce a spark.

 

The shaft has a little play but its vertical not horizontal. He mentioned it has oil leaking up from the base into the distributor but I'm not sure what he meant by that. The cam has oil on it but that's intentional. As for a ground wire, there were only two wires I could see that went to the distributor. One is a black wire running from the points to the negative side of the ignition coil terminal. The other runs from the point to the condenser. I didn't see any wires spot-welded to the distributor. And I could see the points open and close when I was cranking it.

 

It's on the bottom of the breaker plate.

 

You will sometimes find the ground wire held by one of the screws that holds the vacuum advance can in place. Sometimes there will be a separate screw threaded into the inside of the housing itself.

 

Oh interesting. So if this wire has broken, would it cause the car not to spark? I didn't notice it when messing with the distributor but it would make sense that perhaps its been wearing and has finally snapped. The car started just fine in 2022. Then I let it sit for about 6 months and it wouldn't start the several times I tried over a period of weeks. Then it fired right up no problem a few weeks later. Then the next week, it started no problem again. That's when I drove it for about .33 miles and it stalled out and I haven't been able to fire it up since.

 

I wouldn't have mentioned it if it weren't a possible cause.

The points have to make a circuit to ground. If the wire is broken, it's just like the points being held open.

 

Great, I'll give it a look over this weekend and see if that's the issue. Thanks for the help!

 

One easy way to check this is to temporarily clip a jumper wire to the breaker plate and distributor housing. Check for spark at the coil wire while you crank the engine with the distributor cap off. If you get spark with the jumper, you've found the problem.

 

I was able to check the wire and sure enough it was broken. I replaced the old wire as it was brittle and cracked. I fastened one side to the original connection point on the vacuum advance and then attached the other side to the screw that holds the points down. I'm not sure if that was a good place to attach it as the connection point on the plate is on the underside which I can't access unless I take the distributor apart. It still wouldn't start. I didn't have my tester light or multi-meter with me so I wasn't able to test anything beyond it not starting.

 

Hello all, I fixed the wire properly and checked over everything. I noticed the points were way off in that they weren't closing at all. I believe the mechanic adjusted them as he said they were barley opening at all. So I adjusted them again to .015 at the top of the cam. I don't have my dwell meter on me so i had to use a feeler to get it close. But it still won't start. At this point I just want to have them swap it over to the hei distributor. I dont know what else to do. Maybe it is just bad.

 

You're sure the condenser isn't shorted internally? Condenser failure seems to be all too common these days.

One more time, have you verified that the circuit at the negative terminal of the coil opens and closes to ground when you crank the engine and rotate the distributor? You need to disconnect the wire from the coil and use either a VOM or a powered test light connected to the wire. The light should flash on and off as you crank the engine, which indicates that the points are opening and closing to ground. If this happens, the distributor is not the problem.

 

Is there a way to test the condenser? I purchased 2 new ones but I've heard the new once aren't always functional.

I don't believe I've tried this test. So I connect the VOM to the neg terminal of the coil and the neg wire that has been disconnected? Then crank the engine. What should the VOM read?

Just a side note, I connected my test light from the center of the coil to the center of the distributor and it lights up only when it first engages cranking and then again once I stop cranking but not while its cranking.

 

Test the condenser by simply testing for continuity from the case to the wire terminal. It should be open circuit. Any resistance reading that isn't infinite means the condenser is bad.

Test the distributor by disconnecting the wire to the coil and testing for continuity from that wire to ground while you open and close the points. A test light is the best way to do this. Connect one end of the test light to battery POSITIVE and the other end to the wire. I suspect that spinning the engine on the starter will still be too fast for the test light to register (even at 120 RPM cranking speed, the points open and close eight times a second). You can try starting with the points on the high point of the cam (open) which should show no continuity then bump the starter until the point are closed and you should show continuity.

 

To test the primary ignition circuits;
Connect your test light to the battery negative.
Turn ignition switch on (run)
Probe ignition coil positive and negative terminals.
Test light should light on each terminal.
If no light on positive terminal you have an open circuit between the ignition switch and the coil.
If no light on negative terminal the ignition coil has an open primary winding.
With test light connected to battery ground and the negative coil terminal, crank engine using the ignition switch. The test light should flicker.
If no flicker move the test light probe to the terminal of the point set. With the ignition switch on the test light should light steady. If no light the wire between the ignition coil and the point set is open. Move the test light alligator clip to the battery positive. Probe the breaker plate. Test light should light. If no light the breaker plate is not grounded. Check for an open breaker plate ground wire.
If the negative side of the primary ignition has continuity in both positive and negative circuits and the test light dose not flash the point gap (dwell) is not set correctly, or the condenser is shorted.

 

Good morning all,
I was able to run a few tests yesterday though unfortunately I was stopped by the owner of the mechanics' shop. He said I cannot be working on my car in his parking lot because of liability reasons. He said either I can tow the car away and work on it there, or he can fix it. So I have decided to let him fix it by replacing it with the HEI distributor per his recommendation. I do fear that this will not solve the problem as I'm suspicious of some other underlying issue that is not totally related to distributor or ignition coil. I'm thinking its an issue with the ignition switch somewhere. Below are the tests I preformed and the results of each before I was stopped.

1.Disconnect - wire from coil and use test light to connect to - wire. Connected one end of test ligh to bat + the other to ignition coil - wire. Crank and see if there is continuity when points open and close.
Result: Test Light did not light
2.Primary Winding Circuit - Connected VOM and test light to - bat terminal. Turned key to on (run). Probe at + and -.
Results: Test light didn't light up on either terminal. But VOM showed 7.5 v on the + and .38v on the -
3.Connected test light to bat ground and - ignition coil. Craned engine.
Result: Test Light did not light.
4.Connected test light to bat ground and points terminal with key on (run)
Results: Test light did not light.
5.Connected test light to bat + and probed breaker plate with key on (run)
Result: Test light did not light.
6. Test condenser - With VOM + on the wire end and - on the casing.
Results: Both read 0.L

Thats as far as I was able to get before the mechanic showed up. Just a quick recap - I have replaced all the wire that come off the ignition coil with new wires as the old ones were cracked or damaged. I added a new ground wire from the breaker plate to the vacuum advance. I replaced the wire from the - ignition coil lead to the points connection. I've replaced the point, condenser, cap, rotor. This is why I am worried its a connection from the switch to the distributor. Though I did run a test where I bypassed the ignition switch and that didn't do anything either. The mechanic showed me that the distributor could rotate about 10 degrees and said that should do that. He also said the cam points were too worn out to open and close the points. I looked at the cam and could see the points opening and closing so I don't know what he was talking about. I tried to show him but he got frustrated and said he didn't want to argue with me but I was just trying to understand what he was talking about. Maybe he's right and the entire thing is bad but that seems too easy. Either way, I can't afford to have the car hauled away to my house where I may never fix the problem and have to ship is back to get it repaired. I suppose we will never know what was wrong with it. Thank you all for the help! I now conceptually understand how to points system works and how to test it. I'm annoyed that I didn't get to solve this problem but will be happy to drive my car again.

 

Look, this guy clearly doesn't want to spend any time diagnosing the problem and has fabricated the worn distributor story to sell you a new HEI. Yes, in all likely hood that will fix the problem. You get to pay for the privilege of his laziness. I'm surprised that he didn't say the only way to fix it is an LS swap.

Your money, your car, your choice. This should be a lesson about learning how your car works and how to repair it. A point-style ignition system is MUCH simpler than an electronic one. It's just an on-off switch. This is just like the people who think the MUST have an EFI conversion for "reliability".

 

If you can't afford to have your car towed to your house, how will you pay for a new distributor, spark plug wired, labor to install the distributor and wires, as well as labor to bypass the fusible link ? Find out if you have to pay in a lump sum when you pick up the car ? Tighten up your shorts son, its going to be painful. Good luck.