m371961

Hmmm, Factory publications are no longer free?
Just tried to access and unless I misunderstood, I have to join and pay for a library card?
Say it ain't so.

1970cs

Agreed.

bentlyf1

looks like they are charging for memberships to keep the site going

jensenracing77

wmachine will be here soon to explain I am sure. I donated the very first year but it was never required again.

For the amount of time they have involved in scanning and posting it all, I am surprised it was ever free. Still, $9.95 a year is not that bad for what you get.

dnmfranco

Bill, Dave et all have put a lot of time into that site, agreed 9.95 a year is more than fair for what is accessible to you

m371961

Yea, I know its a fair price unless they get to jumping it up every year. It was just unexpected and we can't tell all the newbies to go there and sign up because it's free. And a lot of information sites are. Or maybe they could tried free viewing but membership to download or print and see if that gave them some revenue first.
(should have got my assembly manual)
But I'm cheap and this is another cost for my hobby.

Boilerz25

bummer.... but, I guess I can't complain. They did a ton of work to build this site.

Allan R

Very interesting indeed, just saw that too. I was under the impression it would be free for all to access, study and research info. I believe that a lot of the information on that site was donated by various people so I can't see a lot of cost involved for acquiring the material. For that reason, I don't understand why the factory publications are 'closed' viewing yet the technical and advertising sections are still open. Anyway it's not my site and I'm sure that WAC will address this on this thread.

I don't see anything that says it's not free to join. Just now it's not free to do any research in select factory publications of CSM or Fisher Body Manuals. It's too bad IMO, but there's still plenty of guys here who have the information and are willing to share it for free.

I guess this needs to be amended slightly.

anthonyP

Has any else had a problem with the Wild About Cars webpage? I keep getting an Error Page with code HTTP 403 instead of the WAC webpage. I contacted Wild About Cars and they supposedly checked their servers but found no problem with my IP address. I tried deleting my browser history as suggested, but I still get the same Error Page.

Allan R

Nope, works just fine, even the redirect links to the now required membership pages.

ROCKET VAPOR

Oldsmobility's on-line parts manual still works and is FREE to all.

http://www.oldsmobility.com/mpc/index.htm

Koda

Pay to play is not cool, and not really with the spirit of the internet, which is the
free sharing of knowledge to benefit all. If they want to generate revenue, they can run advertisements. Ten bucks per person is a lot for a small website's hosting package.

vette442

WAC is providing a service putting everything in one convenient place, and that has value. If you found one critical, helpful piece of info there right away instead of going online to search/buy/wait for the comparable piece of literature, it's already a bargain.

I would have gladly paid $9.95 a year instead of what I've shelled out for many assembly manuals, reference books, etc. over the years.

Hosting isn't free, and maintenance and updates, scanning, uploading, etc. all take time. I pay $150 a year just to host my crappy little V code site. The Wild About Cars guys all have a lot more time and effort invested than I do.

If they start running ads, the crybabies will come out about that. Anyone ever read the threads on this site about that?

Off my soapbox now.

Terry

dnmfranco

Terry, agreed well worth it and yes the cry babies will still whine

Diego

Everything has a cost. In this case, their business model is a little different than what you suggest. The fee is a consequence and has nothing to do with about cool or uncool, IMHO.

A great site for Mopar folks is http://hamtramck-historical.com, but the owner relies on donations. However, the size of the site is small compared to WAC, so the choice is up to you.

Koda

I've run websites that size, so I will keep my own counsel on their business model.
Asking for donations is very appropriate, as it is a small service geared towards the consumer. Charging a fee reeks of "for profit" status. Y'all can get butthurt at me if
you want, but the reality is the donation model makes more than the small fee model,
because people don't feel put upon. That's just how it is.

Allan R

Do you actually know what their business model is?

BackInTheGame

Yes, I stubbed my toe on that Library Card thing just yesterday. At first I thought the link was broken. I had just been on the site the day before and not had any problem. I agree that $10 isn't bad, but as a long time member it would have been nice to have received a notice

Allan R

I'm actually surprised that WAC didn't post something on this site to advise this was going to happen also. Anyone who also visits other sites ( Buick, Chev, Pontiac ) notice if their accounts for those brands were affected too? I agree with Koda's concept re: the funding strategy.

Diego

Of course not, but it's different than the one using ads to generate revenue, no?

joe_padavano

As someone who had a small business and maintained a company website, I fully understand and appreciate that web site hosting and maintenance costs money. Diego, Terry, and others are correct - somebody has to pay for it.

Personally, I've never understood what deal WAC had that allowed them to post so much copyrighted content, but the legal issues aren't my problem, and frankly, I've appreciated the access to this material. I do prefer paper manuals and have paid for my personal copies over the years, but the advertising materials and old magazine articles are priceless.

It is interesting that the new fees came shortly after WAC joined with AHPS. I have no visibility into this so I'll forego any speculation.

Allan R

IDK - I thought had sponsors. I wouldn't be surprised if soon all the webs 'free' information requires a membership. I noted today that "The Old Car Manuals Project" site is undergoing some changes too. I don't know if it's part of the AHPS or not. Time will tell I guess.

Allan R

That's interesting too. So if they charge a membership fee to access the copyrighted information, doesn't something have to be paid in royalties? Free access with the disclaimer they originally posted was pretty clear, but now I'm questioning if this is a legality issue.

joe_padavano

I noticed that today also. A lot of the material on TOCMP came from WAC (like the Oldsmobile Salesman's SPECS manuals). We'll see what happens.

Joffroi

I didn't see that coming. I definitely understand how building and running a website takes a lot of time, but I thought it was a hobby for those guys. I'd assume they are getting enough traffic to where ads could have cover sever cost. Looking forward to seeing an announcement of sorts.

johns59super88

I can see the need for a charge due to the cost of hosting, etc. I haven't been on there in a while but the times I did go on I was unable to find anything related to a 59 Olds. I would hope there would be a way to find out if the site has what you want before paying to access it.

m371961

I most likely will join, as I have used it for myself and to help others. But if one doesn't know if the info they need or want is there, why join?

Koda

Hosting ought to be about 50 bucks every six months. No big deal.

dnmfranco

Perhaps we should give some time for Bob or Kurt to give an explanation via here or the website itself.
Have had the opportunity to work w both of these guys in helping them recruit club members, they are great people. So I'm sure there is a legitimate reason for their decision to charge for the library.


Having participated in conference calls w them, I can tell you there is a lot involved w that website. I am sure it is justified.

joe_padavano

For that much storage and downloads??? Not even close. Business websites cost a lot more, especially when you are hosting materials like WAC that have large download sizes. Hosting companies charge at different levels for different monthly download allowables, just like some cell phone plans. In my case it was cheaper to host on my own server. You still need to pay for the T1 or T3 line access also, which is a cost you have overlooked. And there's still labor for maintenance, security and anti-hacking software, etc, etc.

Do I think that AHPS is making money at $10 a head? Oh yeah they are. But the costs are SIGNIFICANTLY higher than $50 every six months.

442ric

Most of you don't know me, I'm Eric White, president of the Automotive History Preservation Society. It's probably time I checked in here with some real world facts.

The first and most pertinent fact is that we are no longer partnered with Wild About Cars. WAC no longer exists. I'm sure, if you've checked-in with the former WAC site lately, or have been observant enough to notice the title block changes on No Limits eMagazine, you've noticed that WAC has faded from view and AHPS has taken prominence. WAC was an organization that hosted the AHPS Digital Document Library online. WAC shared the philosophy of the free distribution of automotive information, for the sake of sharing. They made for a good partner with the AHPS, but, sadly, that is over.

As a result, things have changed drastically over the last two months, not because we are greedy SOBs, but because circumstances have forced us to revise our operational income model. The AHPS, as opposed to losing this access portal and simply abandoning fours years of work, struck a deal with the owners of WAC. AHPS is now exclusively responsible for the entire cost of running the old WAC website. Not a cheap proposition, especially so since we do not sell a product. So the site has, out of necessity, switched from the profit-based, advertiser-driven WAC business model to AHPS's donor/gift driven, not-for-profit model.

AHPS always owned and developed the online digital library. WAC developed, owned, and managed the sophisticated, high-octane, high-storage-capacity web site that could handle the volume and bandwidth required to move large files, and move more that just a few files simultaneously. AHPS was granted gratis space on the WAC site in exchange for WAC being able to offer our 240,000+ page images as a tangible service to their members. At that time it was an entirely free operation, simply because the WAC business model was driven by advertising income. Our library would never have been presented to anyone if not for the good people at Wild About Cars. It was a very good partnership for us and for the hobby while it lasted.

By the way, AHPS and TOCMP (in addition to anyone else who wishes to download our material) are not affiliated in any way, except for the fact that we freely share image files between us as a common courtesy and a service to the hobby, researchers, and journalists.

AHPS makes no sort of profit off the sale of the materials that may or may not be copyrighted on our site, because we don't sell images. Making a profit from selling copyrighted material is not legal, without first obtaining from the owner of the copyright, a license agreement or written permission to distribute. That is why we place warning notices all over our site stating this fact. We are an educational/reference/service site only.

AHPS is, and always has been, not-for-profit. As a not-for-profit, we can not take in money in excess of that required to operate the organization—which now means supporting the website, paying employees (we have no paid officers or employees currently), and conducting any costly projects that would advance our main focus, the library. That doesn't mean that we can not make money; we simply can not make money in excess of our expenses.

The Society operates strictly on a donation basis. Donations provide for the Society to function and grow. Each and every member of the Society—including the volunteer staff, committee members, and board of directors—have all made donations; some donate in excess of $100 monthly just to keep the site running.

It's not about paying, it's about donating to keep the Society going. Some of you seem to be saying that you're unwilling to help the Society continue to be viable by refusing to pay anything for using our internet resource. If so, that's fine, there are over 80-thousand pages of material which you can freely peruse and download without being a member and without donating a single copper/zinc cent. Some of the internet is free to users, but ultimately, nothing is ever truly free. It would seem to me that if you think what we are doing is a good and helpful thing, you would be happy to donate $25 or more to see that we continue to scan and thereby save more materials.

Getting back to Joe P's comment suggesting that we are making money at $10 a head. Of course we're making money; if we collect one dollar a year we're making money. Whether or not we survive on the money we collect depends on how many heads decide to donate a minimum of $10 each annually. It's a simple matter of volume. If fifty a month donate, well that's about enough to keep our heads above water. That will not pay for the expanded scanning operations we have in the planning stages. If a few hundred people a month donate the minimum of $10, then some serious growth will start to be seen on the site. But donating $10 to gain access to the library is a very shortsighted action.

Anyone who is really concerned about preserving our automotive history through digitization will seriously consider the option of membership through the means of a slightly larger donation. That slightly larger donation will also get you a few unique goodies thrown in to make the effort worth it.

Do you belong to a car club or car club chapter, a garden club, a book club, or another non-profit organization? Do they ask you to pay dues to join? What benefit do you receive for that membership? Maybe you get a newsletter for your membership fee. Does a non-member receive the same benefits? Of course not. That is the way clubs, societies or other membership-based groups work. That is the way we work.

As such, there are different levels of donation—all in consideration of people’s income levels and disposable income. If you are strapped for cash, you may make the minimum donation of $9.95 and receive all the benefits of the regular members, who, at a minimum, make a $25 donation. If you cannot, or are unwilling to step up to full member status, you still have access to 80% of the website, including News, Technical Section, Ads, Brochures, the Photo Archive, and the Magazine Archive.

The Olds community has been behind us from the beginning. I hope we can count on your continued support in this important endeavor.

m371961

You should at least let people check to see if you have the factory manuals they are seeking before they pay. How do the know the worth? Sure, I read the other info for entertainment, but the meat is in the factory publications.
I'm not objecting, but it was a surprise when I went to look for something and was denied access with no prior notification. And it costs no more then a high end magazine or newspaper subscription.

Oldracerjones

As much as I use it will gladly pay. It's organized well, always has what I need and is easier than buying all the different books.

66-3X2 442

That's the right attitude to have about it. I've never seen as much pi$$ing and groaning about a few dollars for what you get. I couldn't believe some were questioning copyright infringement. I guess when it was free copyright didn't matter.

Diego

I'm pretty sure Bob knows more about copyrights than anyone on this site.

Koda

So, to get access to all what we used to have for free, it's now $25? I like how he just tried to co-opt anyone needing documents to fix his car into his "society."

Diego

That's not my understanding.

But you sure are bitter. :dunno:

Koda

Perhaps you should reread the explanation above. Ten dollars is only 80% of the site, which used to be free. Twenty five for all previously free content.

You seem to read a lot into peoples' responses. I don't have any bitterness towards those people; I simply view them as opportunists trying to make a buck off of a working man's hobby. Sort of like car flippers, or people who buy parts they don't need to later gouge people on, both of which become more prevalent as time goes on.

Diego

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...-sullivan.html

I don't think I'm reading too much into anyone's responses.

dnmfranco

you know unreal , its relatively simple if you don't agree w/ their business model or their rational move on .