1965cutlassragtop

My old dual exhaust setup is on it's last leg, in my eyes anyway. I installed this aluminized dual exhaust pipe set about 8 yes ago, from manifolds back including dynomax mufflers. it's still doing it's job, sounds good when I get on the gas, but it's still mellow compared to some other cars I hear around town. I want my exhaust to be heard more than it is now, basically.

The other part of this is my exhaust manifolds...anyone who knows about 64-67 olds w/ small block knows how u cannot get headers, nobody makes them for this application....EXCEPT....Dick Miller who bought the blueprint from Kook's when they stopped mass producing them. Now, our buddy Dick Miller wants $750 for a set, and that's with NO ceramic coat or any coat for that matter. They would still need to be painted or coated, and I would still have to spend another $500-800 on the rest of the exhaust system and a new mini starter, which by the way u need in order to use the headers....SIGH...my current manifolds are the originals and pitted and rusted, the driver side is so bad it can't even keep a seal at the down pipe. It always has that small little leak nobody can seem to fix. And I'm tired of it!!!

So now, I contemplate, though I have been talking myself out of it for the past couple of years, if I should just say F**K IT and spend around $1500 for the headers, starter, 2.5" X-pipe, mufflers, tail pipes, & labor for install and welding??? Wow I'd be happy in the end, but damn that some change for an exhaust. Especially when chevy guys could have a similar setup for well under $1000. I think I just may have to do it, and don't try to talk me out of it!!!

2blu442

Sounds like you've made up your mind. But I'm sure you could find a set of nice manifolds for under $50 to replace the rusty pitted ones you've got. Just a thought...

John

Rickman48

Just do it!!
Or - go to the bathroom mirror and punch yourself in the head!!!! haha

Don't understand the question???

1965cutlassragtop

oh, there is no question, just sharing my thoughts.....

oldcutlass

Where are you going with this? There are some aftermarket manifolds that flow better than stock. If your exhaust pipes are serviceable, perhaps just some different mufflers are needed. What diameter pipe is on there now?

A good cam still sounds good through exhaust manifolds with the right mufflers.

1965cutlassragtop

i have 2.25" pipes now....i guess i am wanting a nice clean looking exhaust under the car. plus, i feel like i'm missing out on HP without the headers and some type of modernized exhaust system. i also want people to be impressed when they look under the car and see a nice setup done right. and because there aren't many people who have headers on this application, it makes me want to do it even more.

so i was just sharing my thoughts on what i think my next project was going to be, and i guess trying to justify the crazy price of this exhaust system. but i guess because i didn't really have a question this thread is being frowned upon. sorry guys...

atkinsom

Actually I thought it was kind of cool the way you worded the thred. Great way to talk yourself into something expensive.

Highwayman

Is it done yet?

Post pictures.

droldsmorland

Ahhhh quit your whining and get some SS316 tube, SS316 1/4" plate metal, a mandrel tube bender, a flow jet to cut the flanges and a welder, helmet and TIG yourself up a nice custom set.
$50,000-100,000 CMC Water Flow Jet Cutter
$3500 for the 2 post car lift installed, cant do it on your back
$3500-5000 for the TIG welder
$300 for the SS tube
$5000 for a cheap mandrel bender
$600-800 for the rest of the exhaust system
$200-500 Auto darkining helmet
$200 for the filler rod and Argon gas
$300 for working fluid (beer) your gonna need a keg and a kegerator.
$200 to make any repairs to the inside of the garge from errant tools flying into the sheet rock or windows
$100 to shut the neighbors kid up cuz you taught him a new cuss word or 3
$100 to take the old lady out to dinner to shut her up cuz you spent the weekend on an exhaust system.

Just kidding.... $1500 starts to look cheap when you look at it this way. It’s a mind game I play with myself when faced with the same situation cuz I like to do everything myself when it’s not cost prohibited.
+10 years added to your life as well as extra hair from reduced stress.
I do the ceramic headers or get a repro set of manifolds powder coated. Haven't met a header yet that doesnt leak vs a stock manifold which rarely leaks.

RAMBOW

Save yourself some bucks... Keep the manifolds, buy new exhaust system (straight pipes, or just an H) and Buy a pair of flowmaster 50's. Make sure they are the 14" long case ones, and not any bigger.

a mild small block isn't going to suddenly sound roudier because you add headers.
If you aren't going to race it or otherwise build an engine to take advantage of the headers, then they aren't needed.

on the pipes... If you have an already MILD sounding engine, do not add an X-pipe. They quiet it down even more & add a funky sound to it.

I had one installed on a very mild chevy 350 and the damn thing sounded like a V6, was terrible. 6 months later i cut the damn thing off and went back to straight pipes.

Cars with high compression and big cams can get beyond that issue with an x-pipe, as they sound roudy with ANY exhaust, although they will still have that funny sound as rpms come up (some like it, some dont- i don't)... but something mild isn't going to sound MORE roudy... it will just sound weird.

This stuff is pretty expensive to experiment. use a tried and true equation and you'll be happy with it.

1965cutlassragtop

well my motor is beefed up a bit with edelbrock intake, carb, cam, HEI ignition, fuel pump....it also has about 10:1 compression. i have been told by some pretty reliable sources that i need to ditch the manifolds and get into some headers, that i'm choking the engine with the "single exhaust style" manifolds...then you add in the fact that i can't even get a seal on the driver's side, and i feel like it just needs to be done.

at the very least, new exhaust system and a repro set of true dual exhaust manifolds are in my future. but if i'm spending $350 on a set of manifolds, shouldn't i just spring the cash and buy the friggin' headers???

i love how everyone says that headers leak and headers are a pain, yet EVERYBODY has them when you walk through a local car show. from what i understand, if the headers are installed correctly in conjunction with quality gaskets, leaks should not be a problem. cheap headers or incorrectly installed headers will be problematic, but at $750 these headers should be quality.

i was looking at the Pypes straight pipe system too, which is reasonably priced. even if i do that, i'm at $1400 without install:

$750 headers
$275 mini starter
$375 pypes exhaust

is Thornton still making those 350jr manifolds??

NOTE: i swapped out my dynomax mufflers last year for the Jone's Full Boar mufflers, forgot to include that in my original post. but i'm not really impressed with those, and i can still hear the damn leak over the exhaust!!!

oldcutlass

Thornton still makes the manifolds, there was also a member selling a set of headers for a small block on here earlier this week.

62holidaycoupe

In the past on my camaro I used factory stock exhaust manifold gaskets with my headers and they never leaked. They were more of a pain to install because they were individual per port but again they never leaked. I tried all kinds of Header gaskets from cheap to the high price and always leaked.

RAMBOW

Good quality headers are head and shoulders above the cheap ones, there is no doubt about that. You still have to be diligent about re-tightening them occasionally, but thats just part of owning a musclecar.

Honstly the $$ you are talking about is really not all that much when you consider how much goes into these cars overall, but i think the main issue is getting the sound you want, or at least thats how i'm reading your posts. Sounds like you've tried a few things are are still not happy with the sound.

Sound is very subjective and very personal, and what sounds good on one car may not sound great on another... One that sounds good cruising may sound like crap idling, or vice versa.

The best thing you can do is, plan your system with the idea that you will likely change the mufflers again- so use band clamps on them so you can easily change them out if they aren't your cup of tea.

To get a "CLASSIC" sound, straight pipes w/ no crossover of any kind, then choose a muffler based on your sound prefrences.

The shorter the muffler case, the louder it will be, longer the case, the quieter it will be.

Exhaust exit location also changes the sound... to the sides behind the tires, straight out the back, dumped after the mufflers befor the axle...

1965cutlassragtop

good points....i will definately have the new system setup to allow easy muffler swaps. seems like i should stick with a straight pipe setup. also, i was just looking at the thornton's manifolds. $299 looks alot better than $750, that's for sure. i also see that they have both outlets the same size to match up correctly to the downpipes, which is great. so now i have to decide...headers or manifolds...i guess it's really up to my wallet.

also, just cuz i'm wondering...is there a trick to getting the manifold bolts loose without breaking them inside the head?? should they be heated?? soaked with penetrating lube (WD40)?? what's the secret?? i had one exhaust shop say they do not remove exhaust manifolds from classic cars because if they snap a bolt they don't want to be responsible and don't have the resources to fix it.

dancutlass

I soaked my manifold bolts with WD40, most of them could be loosened then. The one's that didn't get loose with WD40 were heated and opened with a grip wrench. It was not a big deal.
I also didn't just push the wrench but kind of knocked against it...(not sure if you understood, but I don't know how to say it in english, I hate the language barrier)
Hope it works well for you!
Good luck with it!
BTW do you have a video of your car running with the Dynomax mufflers?

Redog

Headers do make a big diference

My Alero with a full 2.5 inch exhaust and 2 Flowmaster super 44 Mufflers was louder than my Delta with the 350, 2.5 inch X pipe exhaust which was a cat-back system.

Shop around. $1500 is WAYYYYYY to much to spend on headers. Don't know your location, but powdercoating is better than Jett Hot type any day of the week. Can withstand a higher temp, but isn't as shiny. I know a company in Warminster, PA that does good work

jag1886

I have a set of those Thornton manifolds on my car, very nice pieces they fit well and you can get bigger head pipes on.
I always use an acetylene torch when removing Olds manifolds, heat the area up till it glows and the bolts come right out.

11971four4two

the OEM factory exhaust manifolds are inexpensive and kinda easy to find.
I cleaned up my exhaust manifolds ,and then capped the passenger side crossover.
On my small block i spent $500 on a custom dual exhaust system , thick pipe , mufflers and installed last year. Manifold to bumper.

No shock in awe

A shined set o headers with large and in charge thoaty rumble are
likely coming your way!

firefrost gold

Dont let them use their jedi mind tricks on you . If you want Headers you wont be Happy till you try them Headers by ed had kits they sell if you have welding skills www.headersbyed.com

If you do go with cast iron www.ramairrestoration.com has large outlet and full set up . I have the Gto ram air manifolds on my car well made

droldsmorland

I've run both. IMO for the street manifolds rule. Strip headers. I like the stealth of extrude honed cast manifolds. You need them for F.A.S.T. racing. I also like a stock appearing engine bay in a factory stock show car. Either way whether it’s mani or headers up-grade to Stainless clamps and band clamps and hardware. Use high temp anti-seize on everything. It will come apart easier if needed. The cheap hardware sold at the big box stores rusts and looks like crap quickly so step up to stainless.
WD40 isn’t a great penetrator It’s not really what it was intended for. It’s not as good as PB Blaster, Castles "Thrust" or Kroil. Heat and air tools is how I deal with exhaust...period.

Rickman48

I used a product by Chrysler specifically for heat risers that'd loosen anything!!
Don't know if it's still available, though! Had a can for 20 years!

1965cutlassragtop

so i ended up buying a set of the Thornton's 350JR manifolds, as well as a Flowmaster "American Thunder" exhaust system, which includes H-pipe, 40 series mufflers, and tail pipes. i will also be upgrading to all stainless hardware & hangers. so hopefully i will be able to geta nice seal at the downpipe/manifold flange, and maybe get a little more power out of the old girl, we'll see!!

L69

good luck are your downpipes in good condition or will you be using pypes version

1965cutlassragtop

i actually already had a set of the Pypes down pipes...i thought those were 2.25", so i may need a step-up to go into the 2.5" H-pipe. or maybe they are 2.5", i will have to check. but yes, they are only about 2 years old and are in good shape, i will be able to re-use them.

i was watching some youtube videos of guys with small block olds motors and 40 series flowmaster mufflers, and i like how they sound alot. that's what i'm going for. and i can't wait to get rid of that annoying leak i have at the manifold now, should sound so much better!!

L69

I have 40 series on most of my cars and they do sound awesome. Have a great rumble on Idle, pending you cam.

1965cutlassragtop

so i'm thinking about attempting this exhaust install myself....i plan on using all stainless band clamps for the seems which are easy enough to install. i'm sure the flowmaster kit has instructions for the install, plus i am familiar with the route the pipes need to follow.

my concern is the manifold bolts. i've been reading up on alot of rust penetrating products which people highly recommend like PBB, Freeze-Off and other popular brands to help NOT snap any of the manifold bolts, cuz i do not want that to happen. i also read that power steering fluid mixed with acetone is the best for penetrating rust and loosening bolts. if i can get these bolts out successfully, i think eveything else will be pretty simple, probably just time consuming.

do you guys recommend any products you may have used?? i don't have a torch to heat up the bolts, and i'm not comfortable with using one because i really have no experience using torches or heating up metal.

by the way, my flowmaster system delivered after only 3 days!!! i highly recommend USA Parts Outlet....the "American Thunder" Flowmaster system with mufflers only cost me $337 shipped....SWEET!!

firefrost gold

I have had good luck with soaking and a impact wrench but I also have used Map gas set from Bernzomatic its the yellow gas it burn's hotter will cherry up most things I have used it on . Use a six sided impact socket too
will not strip head as easy .

Jaybird

Before you install your Thornton manifolds, are you planning on having them ceramic coated?

1965cutlassragtop

no, definately not ceramic coated...not in the budget at the moment. they seem to have some type of a black coating on them already, i thought?? if not, i'll just paint them with a high temp black paint before i install them. also, what is the best type of gaskets to use for manifolds?

firefrost gold

I have read spray graphite works to coat them and can touch up if needed was in Hot rod if I remember right I will look for it.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-t...technique.html

1965cutlassragtop

okay guys, i will be installing my manifolds and exhaust system this weeked. i got a set of copper manifold gaskets with O-rings around the ports for better sealing. also got a set of stainless manifold bolts, and the stainless band clamps. but i am wondering, do i need a flange gasket for where the down pipe meets the manifold??

hookem horns

You can also bolt it all up and have a muffler shop weld it for not much $$$.

1965cutlassragtop

okay, so i got two Fel-Pro 2-bolt flange gaskets with 2.25" center holes. i told him the make and model of the car, of which he said they did not carry an exhaust flange gasket for (i am use to hearing these words as an antique olds owner). i made the kid at Auto zone scour the shelves in the back to find gaskets i could use, cuz i knew they had the one i needed. he eventually found a set that look like they will work perfectly. the Pypes downpipes are 2.5" but they taper down to 2.25" at the flange to match up to the factory manifolds. so saturday, me and a buddy are going to take down the old exhaust and manifolds, then test fit all the new stuff to make sure everything is good to go, then install. hopefully, all goes well!!!!

BTW, i unscrewed all the manifold bolts no problem while the engine was still hot after a cruise. they all backed out no problem, actually easier than i expected.

1965cutlassragtop

quick update on this....me and a buddy removed the entire old exhaust system on saturday afternoon, took us about an hour and a half to remove the manifolds, pipes, and existing hangars. the sawsall came in handy that day. we were going to start hanging the flowmaster pipes, but i decided to hold off so i could spend a few hours under the car with some POR-15 and touch up the frame rails & rear end before the new exhaust goes in. also want to toch up the engine block and the inside of the frame up front while the manifolds are out to clean up the engine compartment a little bit. also, i need to paint the manifolds, which the local parts store was out of the high temp primer. so i will be trying to find a can of that primer this week so i can get all this painting done, then actually install the exhaust. i bought nice copper manifold gaskets with the O-rings around the port for optimal sealing, i have the flange gaskets (if needed), and i have eight(8) 2.5" stainless band clamps for all the seems.


i was wondering though, should i use some type of anti seize on the new manifold bolts and exhaust bolts?? i hear mixed reviews on that topic....

texxas

I've got the Thornton 350JR manifolds on my 67 Cutlass ragtop, running a SBO 350. I wouldn't paint the manifolds. I used an exhaust manifold dressing sold by Eastwood, Calyx. Works great.
http://www.eastwood.com/calyx-manifold-coating.html
I know you already bought the manifolds but just an FYI. Sanderson also makes a SBO header that would fit your car.
I attached a couple of pictures of my engine with the manifolds freshly installed and coated with Calyx. I used an old toothbrush and applied it before I installed the manifolds. They still look good and in two days, it will be a year since I installed them and close to 3500 miles so far.

1965cutlassragtop

i have to correct you on the sanderson's....been there, done that, they don't fit. i had bought the ceramic coated ones, and i would have had to smash the hell out of them to fit. they were hitting the frame on both sides as well as hitting the starter....wasn't about the ruin the headers i just spent $400+ on. i actually had to file a claim with the BBB to get my money back from them cuz when i sent them back, they said they had scrathes all over them (obviously, from me trying to get the stupid ******* to fit) and that they couldn't repair them. took 3 months, but i got my money back. at the very least, i would have had to install taller motor mounts for them to clear the frame, but i don't know that they would clear the starter even then. i tried hookers, sandersons, flow techs, and some generic brand...none of them fit and i've lost alot of money trying to find headers that fit. even the dick miller headers require a mini starter which is alomost $300 by itself.

but i will check out the coating you mentioned, i want the finish to last...remember, i'm in new england on the coast.

also, did you use the Pypes down pipes?? i am wondering if you needed a flange gasket or not?? and what size thread do i need for the flange bolts??

texxas

I got a mini starter from these guys.
http://storesense1.mysuperpageshosti...ail.bok?no=484
They are local to me and I only paid $139. plus tax.(Looks like $149 these days) I've had it a couple of years and had no problems with reliability or fitment. $300 seems pretty high. On the Calyx you just apply more with a toothbrush if it starts to show rust from road salt or sea breeze salt. A good coat should keep it protected for at least a year I'd think.
I had my down pipes to the mufflers custom made by Pronto Muffler in Plano, Texas, used Thrush fully welded mufflers and 442 chambered tail pipes from Year One. I don't think you need a flange gasket. The ThortonJRs have a ball socket type fitting that snugged right up to the pipe when tightened down with the flange. The muffler shop guy commented on the high quality of the Thornton castings too.
On the Sandersons I guess I should have said "should fit your car" instead of "would fit your car". I decided to save the money and bought the manifolds instead. Glad I did now, after hearing your problems.

1965cutlassragtop

i was checking out the calyx coating....seems pretty cool, but there was mixed reviews from customers on the page that it didn't last long. i have a friend who used the rustoleum high temp products on a set of headers and they still look mint after 3 years. i really would like to avoid repainting these manifolds every year. the key with the rustoleum application is you NEED the primer, without that, the paint will come right off literally within a couple weeks. but for $5/can, that high temp rustoleum seems to be a decent option. just a semi-gloss black is fine with me.

as far as sanderson, yes, be glad you opted out. terrible customer service. when i called and spoke to them as a potential customer, they were friendly, informative, and eager to make the sale. but when i called as an unhappy customer with a $400 product that didn't fit, things were different. they were rude, implied that i didn't know what i was doing, and bitched about there condition upon arrival. they refused to give me a refund. one guy also told me "well nothing is a perfect fit for your car, they do require some massaging." yeah, okay buddy....i would have had to smash in 2 out of the 4 primaries on each side, and manipulate the flange somehow to clear the starter....what's the point of having ceramic coat finish if i need to completely ruin the finish in order to install them?? it was a complete joke, and never recommend anyone to deal with them. very unproffessional. other companies were at least honest with me and i knew there was a chance they wouldn't fit before buying them. when i called sanderson, i had told them i needed to be sure they would fit, and i didn't want to chance another set of headers that may not fit. so i specifically told them the make, model, year, and engine size of my car and asked them point blank if their headers would fit, and i was ASSURED they would or my money back. nothing about "massaging" or needing a smaller starter. honesty goes a long way.

texxas

They told me the exact same thing when I called. Guaranteed they would fit or my money back. I wonder how may times they have had to deal with your exact same scenario?
On the Calyx it isn't paint. It's more like a graphite like, waxy paste that you apply with a small brush and it melts into the pores of the cast iron when it is heated. Very easy to do with no messy overspray when you need to touch it up, so it's not hard to keep from getting it all over the engine bay. I haven't had to touch mine up yet but I don't live near the beach either.