I'm actually quite impartial about numbers matching or if a car is a "survivor." I take the stance these cars should be driven and owners can modify their car as they see fit.

But last night I was watching the Mecum auction and the announcers actually said "Matching numbers means the car has a date correct engine not necessarily the original part" They were speaking about a car with an engine that had been replaced with one from the same year with a correct date code.

Agian, I'm fine with that and heck even ok with a 455 form a year or two off, but in my book matching numbers has always meant the drive-line numbers matched the VIN. It amazes me how they try to justify what has been changed on a car - I know its business but then they went on to say numerous times that this car and that car were all original except a new paint job. That is a greyer area to me as many times I have heard "yep my car is all original" when clearly the car has been repainted or the interior redone. I just wish these auction houses would educate folks instead of making excuses for trying to get more money out of car.

It makes me pause to wonder how I should describe my car, reproduction interior, repo fenders () new paint job, but everything that should have a VIN on it does and it matches the VIN - body, engine, trans and the frame.

So is my car;
Matching numbers (I'd say yes)
all original (maybe)
restored (yes)
survivor (no)
modified (no)

Makes me wonder

 

What year/ make was the car? VIN stampings on engine blocks in Oldsmobiles started in 1968, I believe.

 

Steve, what is your opinion on a numbers-matching rebody?

 

The way I see it, the heart and soul of any car is the driveline - engine to diff. I might be alone here but it bothers me when I see a car advertised for example - "1967 442 with a 455 bored .30 over...." Is it still a 442? I'm not completely a purist but there it is.

 

No you are not alone. It is still a 442 but not a stock one.

 

Agree with what another fella alluded to....that for a vehicle which never had a block stamped with the VIN, IMO it's legit to call it matching numbers if all the date codes and other identifying things 'match', or perhaps stated better: 'indicate factory build.'

 

I disagree - # matching means that it has the engine with which it was born. It is possible to have a date-coded motor that wasn't with the car when it was born.

 

Diego, as Tom said pre-1968's didn't have the vin stamped in them. So there is no way to say for sure it has the drivetrain it left the factory with. As long as the casting date codes are within the right range for the trim tag date.

Steven, I agree that they shouldn't have called it a "matching number" car. It's perfectly fine to say that the engine was replaced with a correct date code block, and take the drop in price that will bring.

Most of my projects were abused before I got them, so most are missing part or all of the original drivetrain. They will be fun cars to rebuild and drive when done. If anyone asks I won't hesitate to tell them what has been changed over the years.

If someone has a survivor car and say swaps out the bench seat for buckets and a console that's their choice. Typically, I would lean towards doing that with a Cutlass but not a 442. I've collected parts to build a Cutlass flat top wagon into the W30 wagon that I wish they'd have made. Not a rare car, but something I can have fun with. But if I had a W30 convertible (like someone I know) I'd not change anything that couldn't easily be swapped back. For a driver I like power steering and power disc brakes. So I've installed those in two of my cars but kept the manual steering box and drum brake parts so I could change it back someday if I want to. John

 

The term "matching numbers" gets used all to liberally, especially when big dollars are at stake. Having a drive train that the car left the factory with is only one aspect of what a true matching numbers car really is. Having correct part numbers and date codes on ALL of the parts means numbers matching. I bought my W31 with the original drive train, carb, distributor, balancer, master cylinder etc. It was missing 4 of the date coded wheels, the water pump, exhaust mainifolds, one cylinder head, alternator. I spend countless hours looking for date code and part number correct parts that I was missing. That was interesting and a learning curve. The irony was that it did not matter in OCA judging as long as the part "appears" correct you will not lose points. It likely matters in terms of value and supports authenticity of a factory correct car. I agree with John, being honest about what has been replaced is important.

 

Tom, I have made that part of the fun lately. It is like a treasure hunt looking for that certain part. Some I didn't even know I was missing until years after I bought the car (TCS solenoid, valve cover bracket for the power steering hose, correct brackets for the OIA springs, would have never thought of looking for those when I bought the car.) So I am trying to make my car all original and accurate and thanks to folks like John (2blu442) and many others on this list I am assembling many of the small "correct" parts to put on the car.

I really could use a new intake, I have a repo but am very hesitant to put that on a car that has so many of its original parts and has so many options. That's my biggest dilemma along with saving enough to put 70 fenders back on since the body-shop erroneously convinced me to go with repos .

For the record I feel matching numbers includes the engine the car came with, fortunately I can prove that on my car cause its a '70. But I'd be ok buying a car without that (I recently purchased an SX without the matching number block) as long as it wasn't being passed off as the original block.

 

X2 on John, Tom and Steve. Call a spade a spade and everyone will know what is being presented. I am trying to follow Steven's philosophy in getting the right stuff as you go along and can aford it.

 

I've learned to be very patient, point in case I have been looking on ebay for a heater control valve for over a year - mine works fine but isn't original. Most of the time they come across for sale with a start price or buy-it-now price of $99 to $149. I've seen them as high as $199. Last summer I did a cross referenced and found one just listed in the middle of the night for $9.99 NOS, a few weeks later - found another one for $14.99.

Edit: just checked ebay for fun $89 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1968-1969-19...item4cfdf352b7

Though the folks who are the most help and very fair with pricing are the one's on this board. I try to buy here before anywhere else as the money allows.

 

You cannot make a car "all original" that isn't "all original".

I agree with: the "ORIGINAL" parts are the "BORN WITH" parts.

Original parts are those it was manufactured with 40+ years ago, correct parts are correct parts - they are not original parts.

Does the used car salesman's sales tactic of calling a car all original sheet metal mean NO reproduction or NO replaced sheet metal due to damage or rust?

 

"Restored as close to factory stock" is a term that I'd use to describe some of those fanatics that go out and buy 4 tons of NOS or repro parts. Repro parts don't always mean cheap, as sometimes, the nuances of the bad things about genuine parts have been "fixed" in the repro part (metal 68 ignition retainer rings vs. original plastic comes to mind). And if a repaint is upgraded to base/clear, that's ok with me too. A lot of factory original paint sucks nads.

Mostly original is another term I'd use when everything's pretty much there, but obviously battery, tires, brake pads, hoses/belts and other high wear items have been replaced with either factory or equitable quality aftermarket parts (Echlin, Gates, etc.)

 

"All original" taken to the ultimate degree would mean a car that never had an oil change or air put in the tires. Rare as rocking horse ****.

"Numbers matching" means to me a car that has all the original parts on it except those that would have been replaced as a matter of course for regular maintenance, such as filters, plugs, tires and brake linings. It would still have the original carb and distributor, radio and jack.
Properly authenticated examples are the ones that fetch huge prices at Barret Jackson and the like.

"Correct" means to me a car that has parts that it could have left the factory with, but are not neccesarily the ones that were on the car when it was new. This allows a lot of leeway, replacement engines and transmissions, even bodyshell could be on such a car. "Restored to original" might be an alternative term for such cars. "Grandfathers ax" is a less charitable term.

Then we come to cars that do not have correct parts, modern tires or upgraded ignition parts shouldn't be a problem, replacing drum brakes with discs or similar gets to a gray area, if it can be put back to as it left the factory that should be ok, if it can't it becomes a "modified".

From modified anything goes, for example a friend of mine had a "1932 Ford model B", it was a fibreglass body on a custom chassis, sbc Chevy/th350 drivetrain, Jaguar rear subframe etc. It did have Ford UK front brakes though!

Roger.

 

In my opinion, it comes down to the honesty of the owner/ auction house. If a private individual uses the term "numbers matching" and a vehicle doesn't even have a period correct motor (earlier example was 1967 442 with a 455) then the seller either knows nothing about the car or is being dishonest. If your trying to sell a vehicle at the top of its price category, you should be prepared to answer specific questions regarding the history of the car.

I saw one on Craigslist the other day that said 1969 442 "clone"- it didn't have a single part on it that intitled the owner to call it a clone. To those owners I say "nice try buddy". The owners of these vehicles are desperate to sell them, and will try anything to get them out of their driveway.

 

I was told that my cutlass is a SX clone.To me it's a Cutlass Supreme with a period 455 .So, what exactly is cloned car? It seems to me, the term clone has taken on a bad meaning,or is starting to,just like replica cars did in the early 70's

Ted

 

Ted, you're mistaken - these days, it's a "tribute." :-)

 

Opinions are like-----well you get the idea. My idea of a "survivor" would be a car that has original components that it left the factory with including paint, seat covers, drivetrain, glass, vinyl or conv. top, chrome, and related trim. If a car was "used" in it's life original normal wear items such as tires, belts, brake shoes, and hoses are sometimes in place but normally they are not. These itrems are somewhat generic and many suppliers furnished the factory for original production.
The term "Matching Numbers" is thrown around like four letter words. Each person, or auction for that matter,
has his or their own definition of the term. I've seen and heard of "matching numbers" cars that were built long before the parts were even stamped for identification. If a car is GENUINELY matching numbers then in my opinion it should have the born-with drivetrain, paint color, interior style and color, and any wear and tear items such as water pumps, alternators, either rebuilt or replaced with the same number and date as the original. Items that were discarded years ago such as smog systems, exhaust manifolds, distributors, are items that must be present and have the corresponding part or casting number as well as the correct time-build dates. Many of the SUPPOSED matching numbers cars advertised today don't have ALL the specific and correct numbers, codes, casting numbers, and build dates because of the easily forged and stamped parts that are available. That is the reason the REAL parts are not only hard to find, but usually carry a hefty price.
I really have a hard time when a car is described as "ORIGINAL" when clearly it has been repainted or had the interior refurbished. Original is just that and redoing anything major re-defines the car. Maybe original EXCEPT..........
When cars are restored using aftermaket or anything other than NOS or NORS parts then the term "restored as original" becomes a little vague.
My advice is this: Do your homework and if necessary pay a professional to verify a car's authenticity before plumping down a large sum of money for a supposedly correct car----you will be better in the long run.

 

About 12 years ago, my partner picked up a LS-6 Chevelle from the 2nd owner, in original paint and interior, supposedly number matching, and hid it away!
2 yrs. ago, after seeing what B-J was getting, decieded to sell it.
In going over the car, found a scattershield, wrong trans, and ladder-bar remnants - it had obviously been raced, which was typical.
Looking a little deeper, it was the numbers matching motor, trans had apparently broken an ear off, [replacement trans case] on the M-22, rear-end housing correct.
When I put it in the LS-6 Registry with a copy of the build sheet, they notified us the build date, [7-14] designated it was built on the last day of production in the KC plant, and it could've been the last built!!
Closest vin was 136 #'s less!
Found a NOS bellhousing, ground-off the ladded bar 'remnants' and touched-up the frame.
Paint was thin in spots, and all the metal was virgin original, so it was stripped and painted the original color.
Although incorrectly listed as 'Last Known', [should've been 'Last Produced'] it did sell at Mecum 2 wks. ago - just made reserve!
Should it have been listed differently? YES!
Was it #'s matching? I think yes!
Was it a survivor? Could have been listed that way? Maybe if you said; one repaint.
Should it have pulled more money? Yes, especially when the Last LS-6 'vette pulled $750,000 at BJ a few years ago!
I feel someone got a super deal!!!

 

To me, "numbers matching" means that numbers actually, er, MATCH! That means the VIN derivative on the block, trans, and frame. Yes, 1967-earlier Oldsmobiles did not have VIN derivative stamps, but they DID have a Protect-O-Plate that matched the engine and trans unit numbers to the VIN, so if you have the P-O-P, you CAN verify a numbers-matching pre-68 car. Of course, that only "proves" that one cylinder head is actually matching.

My favorite thing to do when a seller advertises a 1967-earlier Olds as "numbers matching" is to ask the seller to please show me the numbers that "match".

Yes, this is right up there with W-36 stripes on the list of things that get me spun up...

 

Joe -so when a trans case 'fails' and is replaced, whether re-stamped by the dealer or not, you're saying it's not numbers matching, althought the gears are original?
What if you've the warrantee paperwork?

 

why is it no one mentions restamping vin numbers on heads, trans, frame, it cannot be that difficult could it? i do not understand why a whole lot of 442's are missing there original motors? where guys back in the day throwing rods threw the side of the block making them un repairable? i could see some w-30 4spds, 4spd ls6 chevelles, ect,ect, now these cars were built/ ordered to be flogged to the limit and i can understand them being blown up beyond repair. i would think standard auto 442's that had engine problems just got rebuilt along with the trans.
charlie,,,

 

You gotta realize what was going on in the 70's gas crisis, as sometimes just wasn't gas availible, or you could only buy couple gallons at a time. I recall taking my moms car for gas before school, as lines would form later. Many people with big block daily drivers, actually had the engines swapped to smaller ones during this. Maybe why the collector world allows the right to reverse to a proper period engine. Recall a recent article when a shop owner doing the transplants died. Had several semi trailers full of big blocks, nobody knew what to do with.

 

I'll take 'em!!

 

Charlie, restamping vin numbers is dangerous territory. That could be seen as fraud to increase the value of a car. I do think the 442's were run hard back when they were new. My experience has been:

1965 442, two rods lost their caps when owner was racing it
1967 442, previous owner rebuilt a 455 rather than the 400 (I did get the 400 in parts and will fix this some day)
1968 442, parked in 1982 with a thrown rod
1969 442 W30, no antifreeze... the block froze in the early 1980's. Automatic transmission went bad in the mid-1980's, owner swapped it for a rebuilt unit at local rebuilder, rear end pulled and sold by previous owner
1970 442, correct block but one E head and one C head. Super T10 instead of original M21, Chebby 12 bolt instead of factory Olds rear end
Then look at the picture below... that was a really nice car in the day that has been abused over the years. The red "X" shows it was going to be crushed before the guy I bought it from saved it

Back when these cars were new there wasn't as much aftermarket stuff available. So if you wanted a race car you bought something at the dealer and ran it. Years ago at the Portland Swap Meet (around 1990?) I remember drooling over a 1971 W30 that had less than 200 miles on it... 1/4 mile at a time! The owner bought it specifically to race. None of the original drivetrain was there and the owner told me he had gone through several engines over the years.

 

"Original" means the parts the car was born with. I don't care if the replacement was done by the dealership, you in your garage, or Ransom E. Olds, it ISN'T original. An all-original car is always worth more than one that has had parts replaced. The problem with the emphasis on "numbers matching" is that it is SOLELY done today to pump up the value. That's why it's so abused. Follow the money.

Yes, I'm a card-carrying cynic.

It's not, which is again why I'm so skeptical. A friend of mine who admits to having restamped the block in his car, likes to joke that his car is numbers-matching.

Not original, mind you, but numbers-matching.

And yes, he's completely honest about having restamped the block.

 

Here is yet another take on the whole numbers thing:
NCRS accepts stamped blocks. I still for the life of me can't figure that one. So, you can take a '67 'Vette "make" it a 435hp by gathering up all the needed items, take it to a NCRS meet and have it certified. The scenario might sound a little far-fetched but it IS possible. Do you think the price of that car just rose????

Or---consider the "rebodied" '69 ZL-1 Camaro that recently sold at B-J for $410k plus fees. In the description, cleverly worded text explained that a "GM produced shell" was used in the restoration because of many "race inspired modifications" to the original. How is that car NOT considered to be made-up. I would surmise that a talented body man took the VIN tag, trim tag, and hidden VIN areas and surrounding metal and grafted those items onto or into a clean shell. The VIN and trim tag rivets are probably original and not disturbed but the sheetmetal a couple of inches away will most likely NOT be the same pieces that the shell started life with.

And-------how about a Olds "E" head that mysteriously looses part of the bottom of the "E" and through some devious "aging" processes now becomes a prized "F" head that will sell for whatever the buyer is willing to pay to complete that rare W-30.

"Oh what a web we weave.............."

 

The part of that show that I watched they explain a #'s matching car a lot of times means it's just a manufactured date #'s match and not the original motor. I thought that was B.S.

 

ME ***. BJ. Quintessential dirty business.

 

There is a 69 hurst olds / cutlass on ebay. The guy is very honest in his descrition when he said the hurst was too far gone and he swapped all the parts onto a cutlass - I would consider this the same as the camaro rebody mentioned about - at least he didn't try swapping the VIN

 

I respectfully disagree with you Johnd. The '69 H/O is clearly stated as a "clone" and to my knowledge has had none of the VIN or ID tags changed---I could be wrong. The ZL-1 on the other hand, now bears the VIN and trim tag from the original "hacked-up" car NOT the ID plates from the donor. I feel these two presentations differ vastly.
Also, while a GENUINE ZL-1 (one of 69 built) at one time might have sold for as much as a cool $MIL, I'd say the GENUINE '69 H/O (one of 906) might be at the top of the market now (weird as it may seem) and sell for something in the $100k range.
Gotta remember the old saying here-- "Opinions are like......." and this is just mine.
Until next time..... Dave.

 

Dave,

What I was getting at is the guy with the 69 cutlass is honest when saying it's a clone versus the 69 camaro that is nothing more than a new body with old tags.

JD

 

Ok I'll chime in here with my experience (granted limited).

My '69 Cutlass is numbers matching with almost all original sheetmetal (drivers front fender and trunk lid were replaced before my ownership) beyond that an aftermarket radio w/speakers and aftermarket gauges and dual exhaust is the way it left the factory with new paint of course...so I consider it a partially restored numbers matching car. Now my dad's '67 Impala 4 door hardtop is a survivor the car only has 33,000 miles and has been parked since '78, now some things have been changed over the years such as I started replacing brake components since the original brake lines rusted out around the early '80's and the wheel cylinders have frozen up, the original coil was replaced with one from a junkyard '72 Chevelle in the mid '90's when the original died, we changed the original spark plugs 4-5 yrs ago cause dad figured after 40 years he ought to put new ones in. Granted this car isn't overly rare or maybe it is being my dad ordered it the one year color of Royal Plum. Any way I hope to get it running and driving soon with as little changed as possible.

 

Royal Plum is my favorite color!

I know it was available in '66 on some GM cars too but not on Chevys.

 

Dave, I believe you have misspoken. It has been years since I judged an NCRS event, but as I recall a correct replacement block with correct cast and assembly numbers will receive a 50% point deduction for engine. That is a severe deduction, but you can still Top Flight if everything else is correct, I mean everything. The NCRS has training session with experts demonstrating how to spot a restamp, to include the use on a monocle scope to inlarge the pad area looking for broach marks. The broach machine that GM used to deck the block left lines that are very hard to duplicate. If you would like to know more, I'd be glad to educate anyone. Why do I know so much, I bought a 100% original, numbers matching vette from a dealer with a passenger car engine in it, before I knew better.

As far as "Numbers Matching", that term originated in Corvettes. Unfortunately, many use the term to include re-stamped engines. The numbers only refer to SERIAL NUMBERS, not alternator numbers, etc. Therefore, Numbers Matching refers to Engine, Trans, Frame and Trim tag numbers matching.

I am truely surprized that re-stamping engines has not manifested itself in the Oldsmobiles arena. At least I've never heard of it.

 

Bob, Sorry for the vague response. I knew of a point reduction, but that the stamping was still "allowed" I still find it hard to swallow that a car can achieve Top Flight with a motor that was not originally installed. I kinda got away from showing Corvettes, because honestly, I never liked them as much as my Oldsmobiles. I still have one, but it gets driven and not shown. The Oldsmobiles are special to me because of my family's deep roots and long involvement with them.
Also, did you ever sell your Rallye 350? I'm kinda looking for one.
Until next time..... Dave.

 

Dave, It is just about to go up on Ebay, like within a day or two. I think there have been 5 in the last 2 weeks. Lots of competition or lots of interest? I don't know. I've been watching the price closely. I saw a rusty example go for $6100 a couple months ago. Mine would be an easy restoration compared to that one.. It looks like the W31 and maybe the Pace car will follow. Call me if interested.