I am trying to figure out if a car I have is a 442 or not. The vin shows a Supreme convertible but not the 442 code. Vin is 342671M161519. Would the convertible be shown without the proper code for a 442/ Car has ram air, 455, cutout bumper. Thanks!

 

The VIN is definitely a Lansing built Cutlass Supreme and not a 442. It could be an original 455 Cutlass however. You did not state the year, but I am guessing it is a 1970 or 1971?

 

could be an SX as well

 

The '1' before the M indicates the year, 1971. If the vin derivative matches up then it is a factory 455. To be a 442 convertible from '68 to '71, then it will have 34467 at the beginning of the vin.

 

Not sure what you mean by this, but I don't think it would prove a thing.

 

if its a factory big block then the motor would be numbers matching hopfully. maybe check on the pad on block by cylinder #1

 

And if the block is restamped?

 

He is trying to determine whether it is a 442, if the vin matches up, then it is a factory 455, which is still desirable, if not, then more proof that it is not a 442. Restamped, possibly, but the effort to mill the pad and restamp is not that easy and not too many lower dollar clones are going to have that done.

 

well as already mentioned the VIN states it is not a 442. What we can help him with is figuring out if it is a factory ordered Cutlass with a 455 correct? So if the VIN of the engine matches his VIN plate then it is a 445 Cutlass

 

. . . but if it's been restamped? No proof it's a 455 or an SX.

 

Diego...so you're suggesting "matching numbers" is a phony, unproveable or meaningless distinction ?

We know what you're saying....but in a practical sense, 455 block with a matching VIN sequenxe can reasonably be assumed to suggest the motor and car left the factory together.

 

I know a guy whose numbers match on his W-30.

Unfortunately, it wasn't built in Lansing.

Finding numbers that match doesn't mean a car is what it's purported to be. What tranny code would a 455 Cutlass get? Does it have its own code? Plus, I assume a 350 would have the TH350, so if the tranny is a TH400 and the numbers match that, it helps with the deductive reasoning, right?

 

The trans should be a TH400 behind a 455. The VIN is also stamped on the trans, but it is more common for a shop to replace a trans with a rebuilt one than to rebuild the one that is in there just for the speed of getting it done.
As far as your friends W30 goes the engine could be the original to the car. It's just that it originally wasn't a W30. All W cars were built in Lansing. Now if he had a build sheet that would be something to see, but that is the only way to prove it's a W30 as that not on the car anywhere.

 

without proper authentic documentation, yes


for a 455 to be in a 71 Supreme it would have to be an SX. a vert SX would be extremely rare. but not impossible.

the last 10 digits of the VIN number is stamped on a pad on the left side front of the block. it is hidden by a power steering bracket if so equiped.

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a restamp is possible, with the correct stamps.

to be 100% sure, the original invoice and/or build sheet would be needed

 

we know it is a 1971 Cutlass Supreme convertible with a 455, so if the engine number matches it is either a restamp or possibly a SX as 455s were not options in Cutlii in 71.... but the L33 455 was an option in 1970 and again in 1972 as L76 & L77 I believe - that's weird

.....or of course this could all be a moot point as the engine probably doesn't match anyway. But either way he's got a nice set up - Cutlass convertible with a 455 - I'd take that.

 

What is even worse to consider: Not only can numbers be "fabricated", so can paperwork.
So what does that mean when it comes to documentation? A pretty sobering thought.

 

There's quite abit of difference between a 350 and a 455 or any other Olds motor, the block casting number behind the water pump, the heads, the intake, the wider intake between the 350/455, exhaust manifolds etc. Would you care to try and restamp that block? First eliminate the original stamping, then restamp, the restamping would be the easy part, even filling in the original either by welding and milling or a JB weld type would be a pain. Could this be an SX? sure, after 40 years all it would take is one repaint with no concern to replacing the SX tags on the fenders. If the vin derivitive on the block matches up with vin tag at the base of the windshield and title, then odds are very likely that it is an SX, and in fact a factory installed 455.

 

This is a good example of why high car values are a bad thing. If the right numbers changes it from a $20k car to a $30 car, I think that answers your question.

 

I think it should be clear, at this point, why finding a #s matching engine doesn't necessarily mean this car is a 455 car from the factory.

 

numbers matching, or not. 442, or not. dress it as a 442 or SX if that's what you want to do, just as long as you're enjoying owning your Cutlass.

I obtained my SX 17 years ago to settle a debt. it was pure dumb luck that it is the real thing. I didn't have a clue what a SX was. the initial plan was to repaint, and upholster the seats and sell it. the motor was a fresh rebuild. 12 years later, the fuel sender needed replacing. when I dropped the tank, there it was, the build sheet. even if it hadn't listed the Y79 option I wouldn't enjoy the car any less.

 

Unless the car is a 1972, your statement is meaningless. There is nothing in the VIN or VIN derivative prior to 1972 that indicates the car is a W-30. No "restamping" would be required. Simply bolt on parts to clone a W-30. Big deal.

As for a factory installed 455, if the VIN derivative matches the VIN, then the block is either factory installed or as noted, it's been restamped. Of course, by your logic, how do you know the VIN tag on the dash isn't a recreation either? Face it, a Cutlass Supreme convertible isn't valuable enough for someone to bother with a restamp on the block. Given that the car was made into a 442 clone, I think there's a 95% chance that the engine isn't original anyway. And as for restamping, there are other indications. I once looked at an alleged 1970 SX. The car had a "correct" but not matching 455 and TH400. Once I got under the car, the scratches and distortions around the bolt holes in the frame indicated that the crossmember had once been installed in the TH350 location. Alarm bells went off.

 

Joe, you missed my point.

Even if the numbers match, the fact that the car wasn't built in Lansing means the car could not be a W-30.

 

No, I didn't miss your point. Obviously a non-Lansing car can't be a W-30. MY point was that the fact that the numbers matched or didn't were irrelevant to the fact that the car was or wasn't a W-30 Since the VIN and VIN derivative contained no information relating to whether or not the car was a W-30, the fact that the numbers matched had nothing to do with the fact that someone was trying to pawn off a non-Lansing car as a W-30. You had previously brought up the issue of restamping the VIN derivative. You then talked about this alleged W-30. In your "W-30" example, the car could well have been a legit numbers matching car. It obviously wasn't a real W-30, but that had nothing to do with whether the VIN derivative had been restamped or not.

 

You still are missing the point.

(Sigh)

More evidence beyond #s match is needed before one can assume it's a real 455 car. You're overthinking this.

 

If the VIN derivative on a 455 block matches the VIN of the car, it's a pretty good chance that the car is an original 455 car. YES, the VIN derivative can be restamped. Blank OW tags can be bought on the internet. The entire car can also be fabricated from melted down tin cans, given enough money. Obviously the condition of the whole car must be considered when verifying originality. As I stated above, I once looked at an alleged SX that was sold by a reputable Olds person, yet the trans crossmember and frame showed evidence of having been previously installed in the TH350 location. Of course the VIN derivatives on the engine and trans were not matching. As I also stated above, a 455 Supreme convertible isn't valuable enough to warrant restamping the block, but obviously there's a non-zero chance that it could have been done.