jthurm

Within the coming weeks, I'm going to look at what's supposed to be a true, all original 1972 442 (barn find). I've read somewhere that 1972 was the easiest year to clone because the VIN doesn't indicate a 442. What do I need to look out for to know that it's a true 442 and not a clone?

EDIT: Also, the owner told me that it has a 350 with a 4 speed tranny, no spoiler, and a louvered hood (not ram air).

1969w3155

The only fool proof way is with the original paperwork, everything that might be attributed to a 442, can be added to the car. Build sheet, window sticker, dealer invoice, or broadcast card are what is needed.

jthurm

Bummer. That's not what I was hoping to hear. Is there anything to look for that would make you lean one way or the other? For example, was a 4 speed tranny typically used on the 442, certain trim to look for, anything on the frame, etc?

redoldsman

In 1972, the 442 was not a separate car. It was just and option on the Cutlass. There were way more automatics than 4-speeds. You could get a 442 with a 350 2-barrel and single exhaust. I am not sure but I believe they did come with boxed rear control arms and a rear sway bar. I could be wrong on that one and one of the experts will confirm or correct me. Without the original invoice or build sheet, there is no way to know for sure.

starfire

I think the seller should prove it's a real 442 if he wants 442 money for it. If he can't, offer him Cutlass money for it and if he turns you down, walk away. Literally many other fish in the sea.

Allan R

One thing at a time. This topic is widely discussed all the time on this site, so you could probably use the search here to do more discovery.

1. The only 72 442 that can be validated by VIN is the W30, which has an X code engine. Yours obviously isn't a W30 with a 350. There were several 350 engine codes for 72. H (350 2bbl single exhaust) J (350 2bbl dual exhaust - N10 option), K (350 4bbl single exhaust), and M (350 4bbl dual exhaust - N10 option)

2. Barn finds are the sellers biggest field day for cars. They magically show up with mysterious validations of being something they're not. Most things found in a barn were put there for a reason, and mostly is wasn't preservation with all the rodents that roam through there. Every once in a while a true gem is found though.

3. It must be the 350 4bbl L34 engine to have the 4 speed or it's not legit. This is transmission option M20 from the factory. Taking the information from 1. ^^^, that means your engine code should be K or M on VIN if this is a factory 4 speed.

4. 1972 442s did not have rear spoilers. They were discontinued in 1971.

5. The louvered hood was standard on the Cutlass (3F VIN) and Cutlass S (3G VIN) coupes. OAI (hood option W25) was available for an additional 154.00 and again, only with the L34, L75. It was standard on W30's.

6. The 1972 442 option is called W29. It has several notable features including 442 grills, hood,body and trunk stripes (thin - not wide W30 stripes), FE2 suspension, black hood louvers 442 badging exterior only, and no rocker chrome.

7. Proof of 1972 W29 can only be authenticated by documentation. Specifically:
* Build sheet (only factory that never left build sheets in cars was lansing)
* Original dealer Bill of Sale showing the W29 option and VIN
* Original window sticker showing the W29 option and VIN
* Broadcast card from Fisher showing W29 option is box 12.

8. Minor point. All 1972 442s will have the Cutlass script (or Cutlass Supreme for verts) on the glove box, not 442.

9. A W29 louvered hood should also have the Script 'Oldsmobile' on the Drivers side front above the high beam headlight.

Previous registrations or owners statements are simply not recognized as valid credentials of 1972 442 pedigree. Protecto Plate for 1972 does not show any proof of W29 heritage either.

From 1968-1971 442 was it's own distinct model and easily validated by the 344 prefix in the VIN. In 1972 the 442 reverted to an appearance and handling package, available on any of the 2 door door Cutlass (f85) and Cutlass S coupes. Contrary to popular belief, the only Cutlass Supreme that was allowed 442 status in 1972 was the convertible.

Example of a cloned 1972 442 (note deck lid spoiler and rocker chrome)


And from GM, Oldsmobile promotions here's what the lineup looked like back then

oldsmobiledave

Although the factory was not installing spoilers on 1972 442s the dealers still were & many REAL 442s have added them over the years.


The presence of an X in the VIN does NOT mandate the 442 option as the HO was also available with the L-77 455. A car so equipped would also get the X as the 5th digit in the VIN. Clearly no one would confuse a 1972 HO for a 1972 442.

Allan R

True enough Dave. I wasn't considering anyone in their right mind taking a 72 HO and changing its appearance to 442.

Re: deck lid spoiler. It seems everyone was adding them to 72 cars, but IMO, that's part of a cloning - making it into something that was never offered for that model year. Maybe clone is wrong word? Then let's call it 'modified', but definitely not original.

oldsmobiledave

My 1972 W-30 had a wing added by the original owner shortly after it was new. Does that make it a clone?

Allan R

Your car has documentation, right? IMO, the addition of the wing makes it 'modified', as I suggested above. There's always a lit of opinions about what clone means, but I think we can all agree on 'modified from factory delivery'. Your green 72 is a stunning looking car, and that was one of my favorite colors in72. Can't remember if it's a U code, but I'm guessing you likely wouldn't have anything less in your stable.

Edit: duh, all I had to do was check your sig line. It's an L77 W30. Sorry bout dat!

oldsmobiledave

Modified is a debatable term. In your opinion adding the wing makes it modified & to some degree I agree. So by your logic any option added after production makes the car modified. Let's say a person comes across a nice set of OEM floor mats for their car but their build sheet shows that floor mats were not installed before it left the factory. Is this car now modified or do you reserve the term modified for items that bolt on? What about rim swap?; my car was delivered on steelies with dog dishes & I do not like that look on this car. I run re-po SS1 or SS11 rims on my car depending on my mood....does this make my car modified?

Allan R

Dave, no matter whether the term is modified or clone there's going to be debate. Sure, IMO things like floor mats don't modify the car, as they aren't bolted down. Bolted on items I think would qualify as modified. But let's also go the other way. What about items that were originally bolted on and were removed/replaced with other items? Eg: removal of body side moldings, rocker stainless, emblems, grills, suspension etc needed to change the appearance of a delivered Cutlass or Cutlass S or CS vert into a '442'? The topic is obviously going to be controversial to a lot of folks. Even 68-71 442s with 344 validation is subject to scrutiny as far as the word modified goes, but not questionable as 442 authentication. Your W30 automatically has authentication because of its unique VIN. Your other docs are icing on the cake. I however still would call it 'modified' because of that wing. I think it looks cool as heck, but I'm calling it the way I see it.

Koda

I just call it added. As in, 'added spoiler.' Or, 'non-original spoiler.'

Nilsson

The spoiler would be an accessory, just dressing it up a bit.

Carshinebob

There is one thing that I have looked for on 72 442's. The slots stamped into the bottom of the rocker panels where the sheet metal fasteners that hold the rocker mouldings go. If there has been fasteners theaded into them, it would be very hard to fix them to pass a close inspection. ~BOB

69ishHoliday

The term "Clone" carries a negative connotation because it is too often incomplete or a partial truth. Someone will change the aesthetics and not address the suspension and even the engine aspects that are different on the real thing. Those are not "clones" they are fraudulent representations of being something they are not.

Allan R

Interesting observation. I wouldn't have thought of that, although I did ponder the need to weld up the holes the rocker round molding metal discs were screwed into. Not sure how evidence would show on those slotted areas though.

rgk1977442

This was also discussed about a Triple Black 1972 442 Convertible(See Oldsmobile For Sale Section). Allan brought the subject up about a "broadcast Card" that was inserted under the carpet or behind the seat of the car. This could also tell you if it is a true 442. I believe you would need to look for the w-29 option on the card. This car is currently for sale near Lexington, Ky. I think the owners of this car find out that they can't document it as a true 442 and put it up for sale again.

Allan R

Exactly. Same as I mentioned in my earlier post referencing box 12 of the broadcast card. It might look something like this:

Run to Rund

For all years except those with the special VIN, the 4-4-2 option was just that. YOu can have original production options, and dealer/owner installed options. A car is generally not given the negative appellation "clone" if you add the power steering option, the radio option, etc. Therefore, I feel that if the 4-4-2 option is correctly added, it becomes a dealer installed conversion, not a clone--just don't represent it as a factory installed package! Otherwise we are in the never ending argument of which options can be legitimately added after the car is built. GM never made this distinction--everything except the VIN and cowl tags was available through the parts dept.

Allan R

Sorry Dave, I didn't see your add on till I was re-reading these posts. I consider the wheel/tire combination much like the comment about floor mats. Yeah, I know they get bolted on, but they're like shoes and don't really change the body assembly and driveline of the car. BTW, I know you got the last available 'oversize' SS chrome wheels, and IMO they make that car look smokin hot!

Similarly I consider some items (like shocks, springs, lights, bushings, steering hardware, glass, hoses, clamps, rubber parts etc.) as non critical. They are in the maintenance cycle and need replacement periodically as they wear. I'm not such a prude that I'd always insist that every replacement part needs to be OEM NOS to maintain safety and functionality. Most trailer queens I see simply don't have those issues with wear and tear. That said, I've seen an aging trailer queen with a failed trans being loaded onto its trailer from lack of use. It was show material only and the owner had people pushing it up the ramp because the tranny was whacked. So it was for show, not go. Which car are you bringing to the Olds show this year? I'd love to see that green W30 in person if you don't sell it off by then.

I guess in the long run it's going to come down to what folks accept or want to add/delete/modify/customize with their cars to suit their wants/needs. I'm good with that unless they start BS ing me about how original it is when it obviously isn't. Not the hill to die on though, it's the one to walk away from and let them crow to the sun.

I think my bottom line here is that I get irked with folks who claim their 72 is an actual 442 when they can't prove it, or there are glaring errors in their build that clearly show otherwise in their presentation of the car. If you ever ask me what my car is, I'll tell you it started out life as a plain jane Cutlass S and now it's a hodgepodge of things I've done to it to suit my dreams. There are some original elements to my car, but more that aren't now. I've got no issues admitting that to anyone.

True enough, but also an accessory that was never offered for the 1972 model year, just like the W27 diff cover - last offered as factory option in 71. IMO that detracts somewhat from an authenticity point of view. Yes, it was an Olds option for some years and there's absolutely no caveat that forces it to be installed only on the period correct cars. Case in point: 70-71 Cutlass Supreme's (only the vert was available as a 442 from 70-72) the W35 wing was not offered as an option, yet you'll find a lot of them on the web, or at shows being claimed to be original and with wings. Yup, a CS hardtop coupe claimed as a factory 442 - a 1 of 0 build. From my point of view that only makes me wonder if the owner actually knows what they're talking about.

Look at my sig pic. Notice anything 'wrong' with it? The obvious error is the rocker chrome on an alleged W30. It's not my car BTW, just an image that I kind of like. I want my car to look like that (sans W30 and 442 badging) when it's done. It was and always will be just a 72 Cutlass S to which I've added a whole whack of 1971/72 A body options. It's an 'owner motivated build' and will not be for sale as long as I'm alive. It is being documented as I modify, delete or add components so there is a proper record of what the car actually is. I also have GM documentation that shows exactly what the car was built as, and what options - for the record.

Dave is a very knowledgeable guy and I know we're sort of both just on a fishing expedition to feel out where each other sits on some of the issues of modified or customized. I'm ok with that.

As far as car shows go? IMO a customized or modified car should be represented as such. I've observed that a lot of folks going to car shows nowadays have absolutely no clue about cars built before 1990, especially the younger crowd (insert year of choice here)

71OldsCool

Allan R, how long have you been building your dream car & what's your timeline? I'm starting a similar journey.

David

Nilsson

I hate clones, period.

oldsmobiledave

Allan if I can make it to the Olds show in Olds this year I will be driving the W-31. Most @ the show have seen my W-30 many times but the W-31 was hiding in Medicine Hat for 20 years & I feel people would like to see that car.


You will be all over me that day about my "modified" car....owner # 3 added a GTO judge rear spoiler to the trunk lid. It has to stay there for now but will be deleted if I find the funds to paint the car.

Diego

So what you're saying is that anyone in his or her garage who turns a Cutlass into a 4-4-2, it becomes a "dealer-installed conversion?"

Allan R

uhhhh, how do I say this?? A really long time. The body was finally done back in 86 and then life got in the way. I guess you could say that since then it's been more of a garage queen. It's really only been in the last 3 years since I retired that I've got time to seriously work on the project. I spent at least 6 years collecting OEM parts, some used, some NOS, and they pretty much take up half my storage shed. I expect I'll probably be at least another 2 years before it gets to the point where I feel it's close. One word of warning? There's never a timeline when it comes to car projects, they just keep evolving - at least in my case. I want to enjoy it a bit before I get too old and senile...

Hopefully I'll have my Cutlass road worthy by then too. Naw, I'm not going to be all over you - I respect what you said and what the car means to you. Anyone who knows Olds will recognize the judge wing, but Mum's the word from me. Let the masses walk by and enjoy looking at history.

jozw30

Mine too!

Allan R

So were a lot of cars..... I considered it for mine, but ended up selling the wing to another member who wanted it for his 70. LOL in spite of that I also have installed an 'incorrect' dual cutout bumper and W27 rear axle cover. They look so cool! Still need to get the trumpet tips welded on at the muffler shop.

442b

My 1972 W-30 442 has a wing, who installed it? I have no clue, the only person who could tell you or me is a person who's owned a 442 since new, the person who bought the car new from the dealer back in 1972. From what I've been told by many "Olds Guys" is the wing is part of the W-30 package. I just smile at them. LOL

2blu442

Any factory 4 speed car would be desirable and increase the value. There should be part of the vin stamped into both the engine block and the transmission. If your able to, you should check that. Let us know if you need help finding the location of these numbers.


John

Maverick22

I have a 1972 Cutlass S. I just got some documentation from GM Vintage vehicle services (Canada) and they have confirmed that my vehicle was ordered with the W29 option and numerous other options, including the diferential ratio which match what is in the car.

Is this proper documentation that i can call my Cutlass a 72 442?

oldsmobiledave

Yes. Your car is a documented 442. Congrats. Now post pictures.

DENT

Welcome to the forum , as you might have guessed we really like pics .

1964f-85

My 1972 Cutlass S didnt have the Olds script on the Louvered stock hood.
I have a picture somewhere to prove it.

Allan R

You don't need a picture to prove it. The 72 Cutlass S (badged as such) wouldn't have an Oldsmobile script on the front of the hood. That was reserved for the W29 442 cars. In 1972 there were no less than 6 different hoods produced for the A body line (not including the W25 OAI hood)

pfergy600

Allan do you have a picture of the "Oldsmobile" Script on the front hood? I'm not sure if I ever saw one. Thanks, Patrick

pfergy600

I found the hood script, looks like a 1970 Olds.. Did they make these hood scripts on the 1972 hoods?

Allan R

ChecK the ad I posted in permalink 6.

pfergy600

Sorry, still trying to find my way around this website. I'm not very good with computers. How do I find "permalink 7"?

Allan R

Permalinks are the little numbers on the post boxes. Look at the top right corner and you'll see a hashtag with a number behind it. That's the permalink. You can scroll up to the ad (which is a period ad) or check out these pics. BTW, none of the W25 hoods had the Oldsmobile script, likely because they were so distinctive. The Oldsmobile on the W29 packages was moved to the front fender because the 442 numerals were placed on the grill instead of the stone shield like in 68-70.


1972 CS vert ( was offered with the 442 W29 or W30 package)


1972 442 W29 (model 33687) HT coupe