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I'm having trouble degreeing my cam and want to double check my assumptions on timing set adjustment.
The timing set I have has adjustment at the crank sprocket (3 keyways) and at the cam sprocket (6 different indexing holes). I'm not familiar w/ this type of timing set, don't have instructions and it has no mfgr markings that I can find. For those that have seen this type before, are the adjustments of the two made independently of one another, or do they need to be coordinated.
For example, the attached picture shows installed straight up (I think).
If I wanted to install 2 degrees advanced, do I leave the crank sprocket on the "0" keyway and only adjust the cam sprocket to align the "2A" w/ dot with the "0" dot on the crank?
OR
Do I have to first adjust the cam sprocket to the "A" keyway, and then adjust the cam sprocket to the desired advance (2A, 4A, or 6A) setting?
The cam dowel pin needs to be in the hole marked "0", the crank keyway in the slot marked "0", then align the dots (either 12:00 - 12:00 or 12:00 - 6:00, doesn't matter until you install the distributor).
With the part number 3113A visible, it suggests this is a Cloyes 9-3113A Hex A Just timing set.
You are right, but it doesn't match the pictures on the Cloyes website - that has a single dowel hole and an adjustable oil slinger. The cam sprocket I have has multiple dowel holes and no adjustable slinger.
I've been trying different clockings starting w/ straight up and none were giving me the ICL that the cam card spec'd. I put it back to straight up and got the same numbers ad I did the first time (repeatable). I broke down my dial indicator and set it back up and am getting different numbers w/ no other changes. I'm using a standard magnetic base holder for my dial indicator, but am thinking I might need a specialty tool to get the level of accuracy needed.
For others who have done this, what are you using to measure solid lifter lift when degreeing a cam?
Last edited by olds70supreme; Dec 14, 2025 at 03:49 PM.
For others who have done this, what are you using to measure solid lifter lift when degreeing a cam?
I machined a brass rod to mimic a lifter, with 0.842” diameter on one end and 0.921” diameter on the other end, then measure off the end with a dial imdicator.
It’s not a hex-adjust. it’s a BTR timing set. he made those so it’s easy to move the cam adv or retarded without having to pull the crank gear or use offset dowels ..especially when the motor is together.
you need to spin your cam 180 so the cam dowel is straight up in the 0 hole for a straight up deal like it is now..leave the crank gear as it is…that’ll be straight up IF your cam has no adv or retard ground into it. if you want 2 adv, just use the 2A hole in the cam gear and the 0 crank stays as is. are you using a degree wheel?
what does your cam card say for the separation angle and the intake centre line? Post a pic of it
a dial indicator extension rod is most convenient..set it up to ride on the outer flat part of the lifter body
Last edited by CANADIANOLDS; Dec 14, 2025 at 09:31 PM.
It’s not a hex-adjust. it’s a BTR timing set. he made those so it’s easy to move the cam adv or retarded without having to pull the crank gear or use offset dowels ..especially when the motor is together.
Ah ha. That makes sense. Thanks. And, thank you for refraining from making any disparaging remarks regarding my post - this time.
Here's a picture of my setup. My indicator didn't have the length to get to the lifter body itself, so I was trying to use the rivet for the linkage between the lifters. I'll see if I can get some extensions for the indicator.
Here's a picture of my setup. My indicator didn't have the length to get to the lifter body itself, so I was trying to use the rivet for the linkage between the lifters. I'll see if I can get some extensions for the indicator.
if you remove the tip from the indicator shaft, the edge of flat end of the shaft will be ok where you have it ..it won’t slip off.
make sure its parallel with the lifter body and you’ll be ok
Last edited by CANADIANOLDS; Dec 14, 2025 at 09:33 PM.
While waiting for the indicator tip extensions to arrive I changed my approach. To speed up re-zeroing the wheel I changed from using a piston stop to using a 2nd dial indicator. On my final setup I'll verify using the piston stop but this is withing a half degree of the piston stop method. Also, instead of following these instructions (https://help.summitracing.com/knowle...SR-03949/en-us) which first focuses on the ICL, I switched to checking the intake events. Below are my notes on what I got (circled in blue) for several different timing chain arrangements. The cam card calls the intake @.050 event at "-3 BTDC", which I interpret as +3 ATDC. So, two of the arrangements below get close (1 ATDC or 4 ATDC). I've got some questions below...
Is my assumption that -3 BTDC is 3 ATDC?
Is my approach (adjust timing chain to match up the timing event as closely as possible to the cam card) valid?
I still need to check the exhaust on #1 cylinder. How many other cylinders should I check, and/or what else should I look for?
I am reusing a crank key, and the crank sprocket slides on easily. There is just a barely perceptible play when I rock the crank sprocket back and forth (can't see it, but can hear it). Since the engine while rotating should always be pulling/loading this the same way as the way I am checking the timing, is this a problem?
I've heard people say that brand new timing chains will stretch, so install the cam slightly advanced compared to the cam card so that it "relaxes" into the spec'd timing. Is this true? How much does it stretch?
Don’t worry about putting it in at what the card says..they have no idea what set up or even what cubic inch engine it’s going in.
I know just barely enough to rely on someone I consider a subject matter expert instead of going it alone. I've sourced most of the parts for this build from a builder who gave me a target to install it at (not what is called out on the card) - most of my questions above are focused on making sure I understand the process to get to that target (and thanks to you and the others who have helped out).
Early on my (mis)understanding was such that I thought that if I installed it "straight up" that it would show what the cam card showed (aka -3 BTDC @ 0.050 intake lift). It didn't, and was far enough off that I wanted a double check on my procedure. That said, in question #2 above I could have made it more clear that my target wasn't to get it installed at the cam card spec.
The cam "should" be ground by the manufacturer to match the cam card. But they are high production shops, so there are tolerances and things aren't perfect. Also no timing set is perfect.
1) Yes, -3 BTDC is the same as saying +3 ATDC.
2) Yes, if you want the cam "straight up" then try to get as close as you can to the card.
3) I've only checked other cylinders once. At that point you're just checking to ensure the cam grinder actually ground the same lobe profile at the correct alignment. It's just a paranoia check and not necessary, especially if you're not eager to buy another cam. But it can be a fun distraction for a few hours.
4) I've *never* seen a loose cam sprocket. I've had to coerce them onto the crank snout every time, and that's across multiple OEM and aftermarket cranks. It might be worth calling Bill just to double check that sprocket is OK. Did you get it new? Someone might have hogged out the inside to use it as a shop tool, like is normally done with rear end pinion bearings.
5) Sure, some stretch will happen, but with a modern double chain and hydraulic-friendly springs, there's not a huge amount of force on the cam so anything noticeable is highly unlikely. I'd expect 1 degree, probably less? Not worth worrying about.
Looks like "straight up" lands about 4 degrees retarded, which is surprising. It'd idle real nice but probably be a bit gutless.
I've never messed with that timing set but based on the results that you have I think it's supposed to be used differently. You'd have to get someone here to share, or call Bill. If you bought this new and he didn't send anything with it then definitely call him and ask "WTF Bill?" I'm suspecting it might be a bit more complicated, like maybe always leave the crank sprocket on the 0 slot, and you change the lineup. e.g. for 6A, put the cam pin in the 6A hole, use the 6A dot on the cam sprocket, but you would line it up with the "R" dot on the crank, so we're phasing the cam and crank together at a different point than the stock #1 TDC. This allows -4 to +6 timing changes with a 2 piece timing cover - iow can do all of that with the engine in the car and at the track. Looks like there's a different hole every ~60 degrees, and the crank sprocket has a lineup mark every ~30 degrees so I bet it's a walk-the-dog situation. 0 lines up with the 0 crank, 6A lines up with R on the crank, 4A lines up with A on the crank, 2A lines up with 0 on the crank, -2 with R, -4 with A. Again, all of this is with the crank sprocket sill using the 0 slot - we're using the A and R dots as 120 degree references from TDC only! The cam pin will be on the top of its rotation and you're using the matching dot at the bottom of the cam sprocket. Be careful to use the correct dot. One tooth off on the crank moves the cam 6 degrees. It looks like the alignment dot isn't always in the same place relative to the valley, which with Bill I assume is intentional and not sloppiness, which means getting the right lineup is a little trickier. Note: #1 will NOT be at TDC when you line up the cam and crank for 6A, 4A, -2 and -4! I'm making some wild guesses though.
The way you did it - moving both sprockets but then rephasing to try to get something to line up correctly - caused the offset in the cam sprocket to fight the offset in the crank sprocket, leading to the wacky numbers. You may also be off a tooth in several of those combos when you were trying to make sense out of the crazy markings. It can be tough to see the right tooth alignment sometimes and especially with this set since the cam dot is moving around. Trying to use this set like a traditional keyway set would definitely lead to some insanity.
The great thing is in the end *it doesn't matter!* Figure out the combination that gets the valve timing you want and run it! I'd recommend aiming for as close to the card as you can get.
4. I am reusing a crank key, and the crank sprocket slides on easily. There is just a barely perceptible play when I rock the crank sprocket back and forth (can't see it, but can hear it). Since the engine while rotating should always be pulling/loading this the same way as the way I am checking the timing, is this a problem?
Thanks.
I have seen this also. In my case it was a worn crank key. Flip the key and install it with the upside down and see if the slop goes away.
If the key's the issue, replace it.
The cam "should" be ground by the manufacturer to match the cam card. But they are high production shops, so there are tolerances and things aren't perfect. Also no timing set is perfect.
Looks like "straight up" lands about 4 degrees retarded, which is surprising. It'd idle real nice but probably be a bit gutless.
I agree that you don't want it to be retarded. In general advancing the cam will increase cylinder pressure and help the low end; or making it fell less gutless. Retarding the cam helps high end hp, but at the cost of low end. If you have too high of static compression, retarding the cam will bleed off a little cylinder pressure, making dynamic pressure a bit lower. Dynamic pressure is what counts as far as fuel requirements for detonation.
I'm suspecting it might be a bit more complicated, like maybe always leave the crank sprocket on the 0 slot, and you change the lineup. e.g. for 6A, put the cam pin in the 6A hole, use the 6A dot on the cam sprocket, but you would line it up with the "R" dot on the crank, so we're phasing the cam and crank together at a different point than the stock #1 TDC. This allows -4 to +6 timing changes with a 2 piece timing cover - iow can do all of that with the engine in the car and at the track. Looks like there's a different hole every ~60 degrees, and the crank sprocket has a lineup mark every ~30 degrees so I bet it's a walk-the-dog situation. 0 lines up with the 0 crank, 6A lines up with R on the crank, 4A lines up with A on the crank, 2A lines up with 0 on the crank, -2 with R, -4 with A. Again, all of this is with the crank sprocket sill using the 0 slot - we're using the A and R dots as 120 degree references from TDC only! The cam pin will be on the top of its rotation and you're using the matching dot at the bottom of the cam sprocket. Be careful to use the correct dot. One tooth off on the crank moves the cam 6 degrees. It looks like the alignment dot isn't always in the same place relative to the valley, which with Bill I assume is intentional and not sloppiness, which means getting the right lineup is a little trickier. Note: #1 will NOT be at TDC when you line up the cam and crank for 6A, 4A, -2 and -4! I'm making some wild guesses though. 
