Have you guys seen these videos this guy posted? He's got tests on a 71 Delta, 71 W-30, and this 68 H/O test from the old days. Doc Watson flipped the air cleaner lid over on the 68 H/O! What's the deal with that? The Delta is awesome, I loved my old cruiser.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpmxaamNwhw

 

The deal is less restricted air intake.

 

Kurt, wouldn't the 66-69 W30 setup provide MORE air? I always thought the hose-fed W-30 style was the best, but Olds went to the hood scoops in 70 because they were far more aggressive looking and marketable.

My friend said they probably flipped the air cleaner lid over in this old video so the engine sounded better at wide open throttle for the cameras. With the lid flipped over on a sealed W-30 setup, all the cold air advantages are gone, so I cant believe Doc Watson would have done that for any other reason other than for sound, especially when it looks like he was there to promote the new Hurst/Olds.

Just my .02 cents...

 

I think Doc knew what he was doing.
No, I don't believe the 66-69 W30 setups would provide *more* air. I think the term "ram air" is not as accurate as "cold air". From what I've read based on tests, there really isn't a lot of "ram" or "forced" air from any facory intake system of any make from any year, though some are certainly better than others. And certainly an appreciably amount of speed is required for *any* effect. What the scoops (in most cases) do that helps is gets outside cooler air (which is more dense) to the carb instead of the hot air trapped under the hood. But those hoses and scoops are still restricting the intake volume compared to opening the top of the air cleaner as was done on that H/O.
At speed, the cold air advantages are not gone at all, as cold air still goes to the carb, just not 100%.
I'll bet that *at least* low speed performance was better with that lid flipped.
Your friend has a point, but the additional sound I feel was not a factor considering everything.
My .01 cent (after taxes.....)

 

i think the only reason he flipped the lid was so you could hear the secondaries better when he hammerred it.


it's called outside air induction,not cold air and not ram air for a reason.how are you going to get cold air without an ice cube?

look closely,there are 2 different H/O's in the video

 

Well, I just thought it was strange that Doc took the car for a televised road test, they show off those bumper scoops and tell how they feed cold air to the carb, then when they pop the hood to film the engine, he (they) would have flipped the lid back over. And I agree, I think they flipped the lid so the cameras and/or microphones could hear the roar of the engine.

agtw31, what are the clues that there were 2 different H/O's?

 

You call it what you want, but even Oldsmobile used the terms "cold air" and "ram air". For a reason. Guess you don't know the origin of the "Ram-Rod" name.

Yeah, okay.

 

Well, I guess the Olds Engineers were pretty dumb then? After spending all the money tooling up that special air cleaner, tooling up the bumper scoops, having the hoses made, and after all that development, all that added cost, they discovered that they could have picked up more low end with the air cleaner lid flipped? Maybe they should have flipped them all at the factory.

 

No, not dumb, just inexperienced as were all of the automotive engineers were at the time as far as air intake goes. It's not as simple as you try to make it in retrospect. *Read up* on what was known and what was not know about air intake at the time. They didn't have the technology at the time to know exactly what flowed and what really worked and to what extent. The guys that raced the cars knew more from actual trial and error. And that is one of the big reasons manufacturers backed racing: to get this engineering experience.
Put what happened back then in the context of how things were back then.

 

that's why it's called ram rod induction,right?

one is a 4 speed

 

I guess that's why I'm confused because the W-30 dual hose intake had already been in production for 2 years (66/67). You'd think the Olds Engineers would have known by 1968 that the setup wasn't as effective as a hood scoop. With the 1968 A-body redesigns, I'm surprised they didn't come up with some sort of hood scoop instead of all that time and effort getting the air cleaner, hoses, bumper scoops, etc to work when in fact they weren't that good. I would imagine they replaced hundreds of broken scoops on 68/69 models when people whacked one on a curb. Amazing that it took them until 1970 before they came up with a good fresh air system.

 

See, there's part of the problem. The '70 system was *not* that good. (I really need to dig up one article I'm recalling about hood scoops of that era. I believe it may have been a mid-'80s publication like MuscleCar Review). As I previously indicated, all of the manufacturers were scrambling to find good functional hood scoops. IIRC, the big problem was that once the air flow got past the leading edge of the hood, the flow was too high for any *practical* hood scoop to capture, and could even have a negative pressure and draw air *away* from scoops. Again IIRC, one of the most effective air intakes was the cowl induction hoods that Chevy came out with in '70 (due to that negative pressure).
So what looked cool and may *seem* to work wasn't usually that effective, as was/is the '70-'72 scoops.
And I do know that by '69 there were some major "battles" forming at Oldsmobile (probably being mirrored at other divisions/manufactures) between Engineering and Marketing as to what was going to make it into production cars. (Engineering pushing for guts and Marketing pushing for, well, *bling*)
So put that all together and I don't thing the solutions are anywheres near that obvious.
It may seem like it was a long time for developing a good system, but they had a long way to go.
Remember, in '65 Olds was still so uncertain where the market was going that Olds chose to put simulated brake cooling scoops on their 442s instead of hood bulges, and tried marketing them to middle aged men (seen the ads?).

 

My 68 W30 gained .02 and 3 mph with the hoses hooked up. My belief is that 68-69 scoops pressurized the aircleaner, how much I don't really know but I do remember reading where someone tested one once and had some boost. The design worked well, especially at higher speeds.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jI9lh...er_profilepage

they just dont make family cars the way they use too

link is the 1971 Olds Delta 88, just like mine

btw does anyone have one of these 71 72 Air cleaners like in the video lol, still needing one, thanks

 

Those videos are pretty cool, and inexpensive. I bought a couple of the DVD's.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to imply that the Olds intake systems were not effective at all. The drag strip is what they were made for, as far as being functional. (My point being that I think there was more to Doc's air cleaner flip than noise)
Cool that you ran with and w/o to compare. Bet you picked it all up at the top end. Did you just disconnect them at the air cleaner?
Amazing how restrictive some stock air cleaners are. Look at the Toronado. Early ones had 2 openings, what, 1-1/2" diameter ea.? And the '70 W34 didn't have much more total opening. I know mine ran quicker at the track with the lid flipped to let more air in.

And how! I have some of those DVDs too. Really amazing to watch

 

This is what I was thinking. Has anyone measured the AREA of the dual snorkel openings on the 68/69 W-30 air cleaner? I'm curious as to what the area of those openings amount to, then look at the area of the hole in the hood of the 69 H/O, or the 70-72 systems. We know the 68/69 bumper scoops have a large opening, feeding 4" ducts, but what is the opening size at the air cleaner snorkels?

The 69 H/O, or 70-72, or any type of system that does NOT get forced air at all, has to "pull" the air through the available opening(s) on the hood or hood scoops. Now, the 68/69 W-30 bumper scoop setup had forced air at all times, except at idle (I guess then it would be the same as the other non-forced systems). Once you're moving at as little as 5 miles per hour, there is air forced into the air cleaner housing. Now the carb is drawing air much easier through the air filter because of the pressurization of the housing. As speeds increase, that force is greater, to the point where the carb sees a positive pressure inside the air filter, so it's easier to draw. BUT, I don't believe that you can get a noticeable supercharging effect from this setup, because the car would have to be traveling in excess of 125 miles per hour to generate enough pressure to overcome the carb. Even so, I do not believe a positive supercharging effect can be had unless the air filter was removed.

I recall reading in one of David Vizard's books that the Pro Stock cars, at 200 miles per hour, gain over 60 hp with their giant hood scoops ramming air down the throats of the carbs. Something like a .07 psi increase in pressure to the engine, which is in effect supercharging.

Just my .02 cents....

 

Kurt,
When I bought the car the scoops were broke off from a curb. I raced the car over a year before I found a pair and mounted them. I knew the car pretty well and it ran it's best of 13.93@97 with the scoops and in stock form. My previous best was in the 14.1 range at 95mph.
In responce to Whatif,
I disagree with your opinion of 125mph to generate enough pressure to overcome the carb. I would say more like 30mph. I'm not saying your wrong, it's just my opinion. When you stick your hand out the window at 60mph and cup your hand there is quite a push from the wind and remember there are two scoops. I'm sure the force at 90mph is quite a bit. I may try to confirm a ET difference with my 71 W30 next summer for the heck of it. I'll let you guys know if I gain anything.

 

Supercharging is literally pressing more air into the cylinders than the cylinder would normally breathe in. Won't happen with any in stock air intake on any production car (that doesn't have a supercharger).
An engine is a breathing machine. The best that air induction system can do is put as much cool (dense) air to the carb as it can breath in. And out, and that's why the headers are so important.
(Note a supercharger is not located *before* the air cleaners and carbs)

 

It was explained to me this way ...

With the air cleaner flipped and cleaner element exposed the carb "sees" more atmosphere ...

My '70 has an open element air cleaner lid ...

In another thread someone mentioned that they thought their car was overheating at speed because the '70 snorkles pressurized the engine bay to the extent of slowing air going past the radiator ...

I've heard that 160 mph was the speed at which Ram Air was effective ...