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Hey guys, im looking for a mini starter to help with heat soak. I will be adding a heat shield and possibly header wrap around the manifold to help reduce heat there. Any recommendations for a stock 68 400?
My father removed the points and i think i have the petronix ignitor 1181?
Any of the Powermaster starters are good. Even the sbc mini starters with the inline bolt pattern will also work. I used this one, super compact. It replaced a maybe 10 year old Ebay starter of the same make. https://www.ebay.ca/itm/FMR-RED-MINI...-127632-2357-0
Any of the Powermaster starters are good. Even the sbc mini starters with the inline bolt pattern will also work. I used this one, super compact. It replaced a maybe 10 year old Ebay starter of the same make. https://www.ebay.ca/itm/FMR-RED-MINI...-127632-2357-0
Be careful of some of the Powermaster copies. I bought a Summit brand copy of the sbc version that I put on my Olds 350 powered Z71. It wasn't right out of the box, it got more cranky until it needed boosted then let out smoke. I bought the identical looking Powermaster to replace it, 0 issues. I should have read the reviews, I wasn't the only one. I picked up a used 9510, it lasted quite a few years on my hot running 403.
A "stock" 400 didn't need a mini starter from the factory and didn't have heat soak problems. Maybe you should figure out what your real problem is. The GM starter circuit is very sensitive to voltage drops. The long circuit through the firewall connector to the ignition switch to the NSS to the firewall connector to the starter solenoid is prone to voltage drops at each connection. Couple that with pitted terminals inside an older solenoid and worn brushes in an older starter and this is why people have "heat soak" problems. Changing the starter is a bandaid that masks the real problem. Also, do you have the starter support strap in place? This usually gets left off the first time the starter is dropped. That strap is also part of the ground path. How old are your battery cables (positive and negative)? How clean are the attachment points?
A "stock" 400 didn't need a mini starter from the factory and didn't have heat soak problems. Maybe you should figure out what your real problem is. The GM starter circuit is very sensitive to voltage drops. The long circuit through the firewall connector to the ignition switch to the NSS to the firewall connector to the starter solenoid is prone to voltage drops at each connection. Couple that with pitted terminals inside an older solenoid and worn brushes in an older starter and this is why people have "heat soak" problems. Changing the starter is a bandaid that masks the real problem. Also, do you have the starter support strap in place? This usually gets left off the first time the starter is dropped. That strap is also part of the ground path. How old are your battery cables (positive and negative)? How clean are the attachment points?
Joe makes excellent points. In my build I routed the cables different from factory, fabricated new positive and negative battery cables, and my purple solenoid energizer wire is a larger than stock gauge wire in the new AAW harness that I installed. Everything works together for that circuit and engagement. You gotta check everything. My engine spins over very quickly and easily..... cold or hot. Good luck.
I use a summit brand mini starter. 5 years + no issues. I use zero gauge for the battery cable , and make my own wether pack connecters and use power junctions for a quick and easy disconnect of the starter without having to do it underneath the car. I also did that in the past with the stock starter.
A "stock" 400 didn't need a mini starter from the factory and didn't have heat soak problems. Maybe you should figure out what your real problem is. The GM starter circuit is very sensitive to voltage drops. The long circuit through the firewall connector to the ignition switch to the NSS to the firewall connector to the starter solenoid is prone to voltage drops at each connection. Couple that with pitted terminals inside an older solenoid and worn brushes in an older starter and this is why people have "heat soak" problems. Changing the starter is a bandaid that masks the real problem. Also, do you have the starter support strap in place? This usually gets left off the first time the starter is dropped. That strap is also part of the ground path. How old are your battery cables (positive and negative)? How clean are the attachment points?
All though you make good points about what could be the issue or issues you failed at pointing out advantages of the mini starter!!! Joe it's lighter it is easyer to install fact!
X3 on fixing the real or root problem(s) before throwing new parts in the mix. This practice generally masks the real problem, thus taxing the new part to fail sooner than expected. Now you are right back where you started.
The weight savings is good for sure if that's what the goal was versus blindly trying to fix an electrical problem. Or headers are making fit-up a royal PITA.
Think of 50-year-old plumbing. You want your kitchen faucet to run better. Installing the world's best faucet won't increase water flow. All of the plumbing leading up to it needs to be verified as operating as intended or to capacity to see the benefit of a new faucet.
The entire starting circuit is 50+ years old. Way outside its engineered durability/obsolescence.
Do a voltage drop test. Replace the 50-year-old wires & components. Then start stepping up to custom pieces,
With either starter, I recommend a mini heat shield and wrapping the head pipe or header with a blanket. Both will increase the life of the starter and decrease the hot start load amps...not a bad thing.
x17 on checking the circuit, cleaning connections, consider replacing cables if corroded. If going with a mini starter, give the RobbMc a look. Well designed, high quality, nicely machined and he’s a little guy that has been supporting the Olds community for decades.
I have a new RobbMc starter still on my 'spare parts' shelf for eventual use if needed - it does look like a quality piece - had read may good reviews on it before buying.
Thanks for the replies guys. I think i will on a starter and will check the wiring while i got the motor out. I know the current starter is too old. I may also try a relay before getting a new starter to see if that does anything
For those following along at home, Powermaster changed the solenoid wiring on the 9510 some time in the past 2 or 3 years. The original design had problems with the solenoid post turning, then ripping the wires off on the inside, and the wires were glued to the case to insulate them. New design stakes the post in place and the wires have an insulator on them. Seems better.
I have been using RobbMc for some years now with great results, I am not using the starter brace, but I cleaned the block, starter, and the shim is copper.
Have had one on the 69 for over 5 years. Hundreds and hundreds of starts, thousands and thousands of miles. Including track sessions with multiple passes on 90+ degree days... (can give you specifics on all usage if need be, including exactly how many miles and starts..., I keep a dairy on her) After decades of buying the standard local auto store remans, the best move I ever made. Cost several times what the generics cost and worth every cent.
Last edited by 69CSHC; Dec 14, 2021 at 03:52 PM.
Reason: wording
Any of the Powermaster starters are good. Even the sbc mini starters with the inline bolt pattern will also work. I used this one, super compact. It replaced a maybe 10 year old Ebay starter of the same make. https://www.ebay.ca/itm/FMR-RED-MINI...-127632-2357-0
This is the starter I have on my engine as well. The starter seems to be ok, but I have a problem with it not being close enough to the starter ring gear. It barely engages. I need to correct that issue but I don't know for sure if the problem is the starter or the new flex plate. I needed the mini starter to clear my headers and this one barely does as well. You can see in the pic below that I had to "dent tune" the header around the connectors.
That is tight, I don't think there is a more compact starter. You may want a blanket for it to last. I went with that one because how compact it was and had good reviews. I will have to see how it contacts my 330 flex plate on the new motor.
That is a Denso stye gear reduction starter. This style of starter is re-manufactured by different vendors now. The nice thing about this style of starter is it clock able so the starters position can be changed to help avoid problems like you experienced. Watch the video about shimming the starter in the following link to see how to shim and clock the starter. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/p...lass/year/1971
That is a Denso stye gear reduction starter. This style of starter is re-manufactured by different vendors now. The nice thing about this style of starter is it clock able so the starters position can be changed to help avoid problems like you experienced. Watch the video about shimming the starter in the following link to see how to shim and clock the starter. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/p...lass/year/1971
I appreciate the link, but that only helps if the starter is too close or too tight. Mine is already too loose. I need to get it closer to the ring gear. I will be sure to post the results when I get it working properly.
I appreciate the link, but that only helps if the starter is too close or too tight. Mine is already too loose. I need to get it closer to the ring gear. I will be sure to post the results when I get it working properly.
Is the gear psychically too far away or not going deep enough in engagement?
Is the gear psychically too far away or not going deep enough in engagement?
It is physically too far away. It was incredibly noisy from the beginning and began skipping, as in the teeth would grind over the ring gear. The engagement depth looks about right. I was trying to get the car to my house from storage when it began malfunctioning. I was able to loosen the bolts and push the starter closer to the ring gear and the few thousandths engagement allowed me to get the engine started and get it home. Not sure yet how to resolve the issue for good.
This is the starter I have on my engine as well. The starter seems to be ok, but I have a problem with it not being close enough to the starter ring gear. It barely engages. I need to correct that issue but I don't know for sure if the problem is the starter or the new flex plate. I needed the mini starter to clear my headers and this one barely does as well. You can see in the pic below that I had to "dent tune" the header around the connectors.
That is a piece of crap! Excuse me. The power master 9510 will fit much better.
The last one of these lasted 10+ years. I had a Powermaster 9510 die as well, a hot 403 is hard on them. It sounds like with the redesign, the Powermaster 9510/9610 are a better starter than ever. I just ordered a 9610, you convinced me. I have this red one as a spare, I have plans for it anyways. What's $275 on 8K, I guess.
Last edited by olds 307 and 403; Dec 30, 2021 at 01:12 PM.
This is the starter I have on my engine as well. The starter seems to be ok, but I have a problem with it not being close enough to the starter ring gear. It barely engages. I need to correct that issue but I don't know for sure if the problem is the starter or the new flex plate. I needed the mini starter to clear my headers and this one barely does as well. You can see in the pic below that I had to "dent tune" the header around the connectors.
If that's a powermaster, I think you can clock it so you don't have to "tune" the headers...
If that's a powermaster, I think you can clock it so you don't have to "tune" the headers...
It isn't a Powermaster but it is fully clockable. He may have to buy a Powermaster which is very similar in size, as his starter seems to have incorrect dimensions. Mine needed 0 adjustments and made no abnormal noises but I am checking engagement. I putting a new 9610 Powermaster for peace of mind on my new 358.
The problem may be the flex plate and ring gear. It is new and hangs on the back end of a Cutlassefi-built engine. I am wondering if it is slightly smaller in diameter than the factory one. It should be the correct size. Dunno yet. Gotta get more info and take some measurements.
I’m a little late to the game here, but I agree with the Powermaster starters.
I have long tubes and I cooked my starter. I had a silver wrap heat shield/blanket on it and it must have fell off, but I don’t think that would have mattered anyway.
I put a powermaster on, (the one that could only handle 12.1:1 CR which I’m nowhere near) and I put a heat blanket/shield wrap/whatever you want to call it, on it too. I actually removed the bolts on the starter, wrapped it, and put the bolts back so I ain’t losing it this time.
it sounds like a tractor trailer rig when you crank it, but it works great and it’s far away from the long tube. The stock one was maybe like 1/8” away from the tubes. Plus all the independent reviews say that they hold up better to radiant heat
