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Perhaps I am late in the game here, maybe I'm naive, but I recently noticed a couple of ads in Hemmings Motor News that I thought was rather blatant and unethical services. Many folks buy and restore basket vehicles for a premium with correct stampings/substantiating paper to ultimately have a documented and legitimate correct collector car that not only looks great, but carries the pedigree and stampings that make these cars worth so much to those that are willing to pay for them. Granted, I am not one of those folks, but I find it disturbing that the collector car market is so easily diluted. Cowl tags? Block stamping?!
happens every day..just because others choose to do it, doesnt mean you should go against you conscience...........i personally would never do it....ever..
Unfortunately, there's ethical, legal, and prosecutory concerns.
Ethical concerns are when someone is doing something wrong, that is legal, or ambiguously legal. Legal concerns are when someone is breaking the law, but they may or may not be able to be prosecuted. Prosecutory concerns, and there may be a better word for this concept, are whether or not a crime is actually punishable or even able to be charged against someone. Many laws are on the books that are not legally enforced any more.
The crimes at hand here are VIN tampering (which has specific things) and/or fraud. If you change numbers on a car to change its perceived value, it IS fraud when you pass it off as actual. However, there is not a jury or judge or district attorney out there who will take it seriously. VIN tampering is another matter, and is taken seriously.
Its like the rosette rivets that are for sale. Only someone changing a vin tag would need them.
Not necessarily. If someone is doing a high enough quality repaint that they want to remove the VIN or doorjamb tag, clean and repaint, and then re-attach the tags, those rivets can help make the restoration just that little bit better. They can also be used to move a VIN tag from a rusted panel to a clean replacement panel too. There is nothing nefarious about either scenario.
It is unfortunate that there will be some that will take advantage and illegally swap or change a VIN tag. Ya gotta be on your toes to spot something like that. If you take the time to post photos here and ask lots of questions they often make mistakes and can be spotted.
Anyone buying more than a driver grade vehicle should be using expert scrutiny so they don't get burned.
Its like the rosette rivets that are for sale. Only someone changing a vin tag would need them.
Not true. If one needs to repair rust on the cowl, it is often necessary to remove the VIN tag or cowl tag to affect a proper repair.
Again, it is not illegal to remove or change a VIN tag - this is done all the time for truck cab repairs, for example, and you can even buy a complete cab from GM without a tag. The federal law makes it illegal to alter or tamper with the VIN WITH THE INTENT TO COMMIT FRAUD. It's the fraud that's illegal. The rest is just sheet metal.
Not true. If one needs to repair rust on the cowl, it is often necessary to remove the VIN tag or cowl tag to affect a proper repair.
Again, it is not illegal to remove or change a VIN tag - this is done all the time for truck cab repairs, for example, and you can even buy a complete cab from GM without a tag. The federal law makes it illegal to alter or tamper with the VIN WITH THE INTENT TO COMMIT FRAUD. It's the fraud that's illegal. The rest is just sheet metal.
Well, that is the bottom line. If someone is changing vin, trim tags, re-stamping parts to commit fraud then its wrong. But having the tools readily available concerns me. That does make it much harder for enthusiasts to know if they're looking at the real deal when considering purchase of a rare car.
That does make it much harder for enthusiasts to know if they're looking at the real deal when considering purchase of a rare car.
Sure, which is why I'm such a hard-@$$ when it comes to claims of rare (and overpriced) cars. The burden of proof is on the seller. Of course, the reality is that we've done this to ourselves by placing such a high value on what are really just used cars. The fact that one CAN create a "rare" and highly valued vehicle simply by swapping the VIN onto an otherwise identical Cutlass shell should give you pause in the first place.
I can't help but notice that all of this discussion is a little late to the party. The two ads posted by the OP show that one advertiser has been advertising in Hemmings for 10 years and the other for 31 years. These aren't services that sprung up yesterday.
January 2nd, 2018, 07:31 PM
