What will GM be left with? Chevy, GMC, and Cadillac?

Buick Name Is Erased From Buicks as Sales Slip for Century-Old Marque

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/19/b...les-china.html


Buick, the company, effectively ceased to be an automobile manufacturer after 2010, when General Motors shut down its vast “Buick City” manufacturing complex in Flint, Mich. Buick City, once the largest auto factory in the world, had for more than a century produced purebred Buick vehicles, parts and powertrains. Since then, Buick dealers’ lots have been filled with a mélange of G.M.-owned vehicles borrowed from Opel, Holden, Daewoo and others, with a Buick badge affixed. So-called badge-engineering is a tried-and-failed G.M. strategy that has been criticized as helping to undermine brands including Oldsmobile, Saturn and Pontiac.



Avenir? I hadn't heard of it until now.

It wouldn't be the first time something like this happened. Pontiac was introduced as a sub-brand of Oakland the way Viking was for Oldsmobile and LaSalle was for Cadillac, but in Oakland's case, the sub-brand became more popular than the parent brand and eventually replaced it.

The absence of Buick lettering leaves room for the new Avenir badge, which Buick introduced as a “sub-brand” suggesting a higher level of luxury. Some auto analysts expect that Buick will eventually make a full transition to the Avenir name.



Irony

Interestingly, Oldsmobile, Pontiac and Saturn were canceled while selling at North American volumes far higher than Buick is now. Olds, in particular, was posting comparatively robust sales near a quarter-million a year when it was handed its surprise death notice in late 2000. Saturn and Pontiac had dipped below 200,000 in yearly sales and did not survive G.M.’s bankruptcy in 2009.

If not for the Buick name’s esteem in China — Communist Party leaders once favored lavishly appointed Buick land yachts — it is possible the brand would have been abandoned when Buick City was.

 

x2

GM leadership will probably screw up Buick somehow.

 

Buick's market has always been China. The Trump tariffs have hit China hard. My guess is that sales in China are falling off the face of the earth.

I've owned two Enclaves since 2011. Unless you upgrade to the GMC Denali you can't get a nicer interior trim level. They've had zero problems but I don't keep them over 80k miles. I always buy them when they are a year old with under 20k miles

 

I currently have 3 Buicks in my driveway. Love 'em. I'm not a fan of Cadillac's offerings, as I prefer the ride and quiet cabin that is actually exclusive to Buick within the GM family. They employ both active and passive noise cancellation.

I'd personally hate to see Buick go away, as they are my preferred lineup. I'll probably drive my new '17 Lacrosse (yes, new... it sat on a lot in eastern OH for 2 years) until I retire in 10 years. The fact that this great car sat unsold for that long is a troubling indicator, for sure.

Also, you guys haven't heard of the Avenir top-tier trim level because you're clearly not shopping for Buicks when you look to new vehicles. Avenir = Denali @ GMC.

 

So they're just removing the B U I C K letters from the outside of the car. Most new cars today don't have manufacturer's letters on them anyway. Of course, I remember when Olds made a big deal of how they were not putting the OLDSMOBILE name anywhere on the Aurora. How'd that work out?

 

Not well. Oldsmobile ultimately died. So it's reasonable to think the same thing might happen to Buick if it starts down the same road.

 

Should be ok if the Chinese keep buying them? I seen to remember Buick crossing 1m annual sales a few years back with 800k of that million coming from China. The real reason we dont have Pontiac today.


The earlier point about tariffs/China slowdown is a good one. If they stop buying Buicks, all bets are off of course but I think they will be OK.

 

Kind of my point.

In any case, I don't really give a rat's patootie. There are exactly zero new vehicles that interest me. The last new car that I even thought about getting was the CTS-V wagon with six speed, and that was dropped a while ago - and frankly there is no way I was going to pay $70K (plus dealer premium) for a new car. It also wasn't particularly attractive. The few cars that you can still buy all look like suppositories and have too many doors. I have less than zero interest in SUVs. In all cases new cars have waaaay too much electronic nanny BS. I drive a lot of rental cars, and these have included a couple of BMWs and a 2019 Camaro SS. No way I'd ever own any of them. The Camaro was nice to drive, so long as you didn't have to get out and look at it. I did have a Hemi Challenger rental once that was the closest I've found to a "real" car, but the only Mopar I'd ever own would be a 1970 300 Hurst (to go with my H/O). I've had several new Jeeps of various sizes. They all sucked. Why do new cars need a million illegible buttons? Why do I need to go through a touch screen menu to access simple functions? Why do I have to turn off the stop/start function EVERY SINGLE TIME I get in the car? No thanks.

 

Rental cars handle the best. They can be used for off-roading. The trunks can be filled with ice for tailgate parties And it’s a known fact that you can put a rental car in reverse at a higher rate of forward speed than ay other car. Apologies to PJ O’Roark, but I’d never buy a rental car. Former employer had a program for doing so. But I know what people are capable of.

Speaking of Buicks, just bought a near mint example of my first new car. A Buick. And hence my screen name. Last year GM product I’d ever consider buying.

 

I always thought those were the best looking of the full size H-body cars. I just couldn't get past the wrong wheel drive thing.

 

There’s a guy in NYC who makes them go wicked fast. Used to be a vid of one of his turbo moded Lesabres blowing away a worked Camaro, made the track announcer eat his words. All I could find of it was this pic...he used GNX fender vents in the hood.

 

Hell GM is striking hard right now anyway.

 

Super nice. Where did you find that? In 94 when I graduated college I bought an 89 with about 50K on it. Drove it to about 115K with no problems except a couple alternators. I loved that car. Still one of my favorite cars.
I put 16x8 mesh wheels from a Grand Prix GTP on it & a Camaro cross flow muffler so i could have fake dual exhaust. With the wheels & KYB struts it handled great for a FWD car.
I thought I was the only one that loved them.

 

Old news. Let's be honest: GM's marques lost their identities in the 80s when they lost their individual engine lines. Buick has no brand identity, hence no one has a reason to buy one. I checked at my local Buick/GMC dealer, and they had 10 new Buicks and several dozen GMC's. Buick is long gone, and I don't think it will be very missed.

Looks like Chrysler is next on the chopping block. They're down to a minivan and the 300, and I think 2020 is the last model year for the 300.

 

^^^THIS! Plus, GM "styling" seems to consist of hitting the car with an ugly stick. The last GM car that actually looked good was the 1993 Allante (yes, I've owned one). Of course, one thing Italians do well is make a good looking car. Add GM running gear and it's actually reliable. Still too bad about the wrong wheel drive thing, however.

 

A 93 would have had a Nortstar, no? Yours was reliable? My Northstar powered Eldorado used so much oil, I kept my spare tire well stocked with quart bottles. Car had 58K miles on it when I bought it. Didn’t leak on the driveway, didn’t smell, didn’t blow smoke, but the oil went to the same place socks in the drier disappear to, I guess. Kept that car 6 months before giving up. Front end would nose-dive on short stops too. Shot suspension in 60k miles?

That car was the last Genital Motors vehicle I’ll ever own for daily use.

 

Yes, that's why I got it. Only year with the N*. No engine issues for 170K miles. No excessive oil use, no suspension issues, no coolant leaks. I finally gave up on the electronics issues, however. Picture a combination of Delco and Italian electronics.

 

I bought a new Buick Lucern as soon as they were on the show room floor. Mine was Northstar powered and had 130,000 miles when I traded it in on a 2018 Buick Encore. From the best in the Lucern to the worst I have ever owned. After 130,000 miles, never added oil, never had any major issues, I reluctantly traded in my Lucern. This Encore is the worst riding, most under powered, piece of crap sold under the Buick name. Not even built by GM, came from Korea but is really an Opel in disguise. Never again, I will buy Ford next time.

 

I have wondered if this is a type of transition to the (inevitable) autonomous vehicle....a way of building "trust" between the driver and the many systems that will eventually work in the background of future vehicles. Lane control warnings, back-up alarms and cameras, electronic brake hold, traction control, etc. are interfaced for the time being, while the new car buyer develops confidence in them by being able to control them. Why do I need to feel the ABS pulse at the pedal?
Just a theory....

 

GM could've kept any of the middle three on a RWD platform with a unique engine and made it a performance marque and it would've survived until this day. GM decided to follow Chrysler down the FWD path instead of leading and now they've followed Chrysler into bankruptcy and irrelevance.

Engines are so efficient now that they could make cars in whatever shape they want and still meet CAFE, but they choose to make them all look like jellybeans with the lines on them redrawn every few years. The excesses of the tailfin era are probably too tacky to revive, but someone could make some stylish slab-sided 60s-styled cars and I think they'd sell very well.

 

I suggest taking a look at a Toyota. They're super-reliable, and they're actually sold as luxury cars in some countries.

 

They don't "choose" to do this. They do it because the EPA mileage calculations are not actual driving tests. They are a computer model that takes into account weight and aerodynamic drag as well as drivetrain efficiency. All new cars look like jellybeans because they are all "styled" in a wind tunnel to maximize the results of the EPA CAFE calculations. All jetliners look alike for exactly a similar reason.

 

This is my peeve exactly. I've had rentals where you needed a Phd in computer programming from an ivy league school to figure out how to use all the settings for settings for settings. I guess they're trying to stay ahead of demand by young people? When I rent a car, I want to get in and go, not have to set it all up, or cope with the last person's settings. My every day driver, a 2007 Tahoe, has functions I don't use and probably am not even aware of. I drive somewhere, I don't need the USS Enterprise for that. Not to mention the cost of all this unnecessary highly advanced computer engineering that only spaceships really need.

 

This whole complaining about rental cars is silly. Rentals cars are just like all cars. If you don't like rental cars because they have lots of buttons, then you don't like ANY car because it has lots of buttons because ALL cars today have lots of buttons. The only reason you don't like rental cars is because they're UNFAMILIAR. Any car new to you will seem strange and unfamiliar until you get familiar with it.

Here's what I do when I rent a car, and I do have occasion to rent a car relatively frequently. Stop me if I'm going too fast here.

BEFORE I pull out of the rental car lot, I TAKE THREE MINUTES to familiarize myself with the important things I'll need to do, like turn on the headlights, turn on the windshield wipers, adjust the seat, adjust the mirrors, and fix the climate control. I can usually manage these with a minimum of effort. Despite all the buttons, these things are not that different from car to car. If I have a little more time, I'll do something dramatic like figure out the audio system, but it's not a requirement to driving the car if I'm in a hurry.

Try it some time.

 

I usually do just that. My point is that I think it's way too complicated and is only getting worse.

 

Sorry, but I am a big fan of proper human factors design. I should NOT have to spend three, four, or frequently ten minutes trying to figure out how to adjust the outside mirrors. Worse was the Cherokee I just rented. I went to back up and the outside mirrors tilted down when I shifted into reverse. WTF? Do you do a lot of parallel parking against a curb when you're offroading? Of course, that happened at the rental car lot when it's late, dark, and I'm tired after a long flight. Naturally it takes half a dozen menus down in the touch screen to turn that "feature" off. No, the owner's manual isn't in the car (aren't they all digital now anyway). And no, I do NOT look FORWARD at the backup camera on the dash when I'm going backwards. I look over my shoulder after checking both mirrors. All new cars suck as far as human factors design. Why do I need to access menus on a touch screen to adjust the HVAC? Either the buttons (real or virtual) have illegible text or they have indecipherable icons. All that matters today is that cars are a rolling hot spot. Seen the row of illegible buttons in the new C8?

And you kids get off my lawn...

 

I’m so done with GM.

 

I'm landlocked with GM. I come from a GM family who started in the 1950s...GM has been in the driveway all my life. I know nothing else. My fear of reaching over the line is holding me back. I really did want to consider my next truck a Ford over my run of GMC trucks, but this last truck, a 2010 made in Silao, Mexico, has been so darn good to me (I turned off that 4 cyl mode crap with my Diablo) and doesn't use or leak oil (surprised by that) and all I do is the normal maintenance stuff and actually change the hoses and belts and stuff. 65K miles strong. So I hesitate. Yeah, it has the proverbial dash crack at the front left corner of the air bag, but most do anyway. And it still waits for the Takata air bag recall which GM will pretty much NEVER do. But I'm impressed by its overall general quality and reliability. Only real mechanical issue it had, but I fixed it with new GM parts, was the master cylinder seal started leaking fluid into the brake booster. Just can't seem to turn my back on GM just yet.

 

^^^ I'm also from a GM family. My dad bought Oldsmobiles since he bought his first in 1953. I bought only Oldsmobiles until GM screwed us and we had to buy another name. That is why I bought the Lucern in 2006. Never again will I buy GM.

 

As you might expect, I'm also from an "Oldsmobile family". I grew up in a 1963 Super 88 Fiesta wagon, followed by a 65 F-85 Club Coupe and a 68 Vista. The latter became my first car. My 99 K3500 crewcab dually is the only vehicle I've ever bought new. $30K with every option in the book except the block heater. It's about to roll 300K miles and the 454 has never been apart (though I'm on my third 4L80E...). This truck is about at the limit of the amount of electronic crap I'm willing to deal with, and yes I have all the necessary test equipment (including an OTC Genysis and several Kent Moore EFI test units and cables). I am constantly amazed by the fact that despite the size of the vehicle, it is extremely difficult to work on. For example, I just had to replace the pitman arm (the worn pivot is part of the pitman arm, not the center link, on this vehicle). The pitman shaft on the steering box is exactly above a frame crossmember, so to remove the pitman arm you first have to remove the steering box from the truck. Naturally the means disconnecting the PS hoses and pouring all that fluid on the crossmember, which continues to drip the whole time you're working on the truck. Once you swap the pitman arm, you have to torque the nut on the steering box shaft to 190 ft-lbs, which you have to do BEFORE you can reinstall the box in the frame, so you have to somehow restrain the box while you wail on the torque wrench. Fun times...

The 99 has some pretty serious scaly rust on key frame and suspension parts, so I'm going to need to replace it. I've looked at equivalent new GM trucks and I can't get past the REALLY fugly styling (what's with the wall of grill???) or the fact that an equivalent truck to mine is $80K and I'm forced to buy all the electronic crap that I don't want. Instead I'm building a 1986 K30 dually with BBC and SM465. I've already owned my one token Ford vehicle (a 1956 F100) and could never buy a new Ford truck. I like the Dodge, er Ram, but again, I'm a GM guy.

 

I’ve always assumed this trend in truck styling was to evoke the big rigs, something guys with small peens seem to like?

 

I too grew up with Oldsmobile. I still had tons of Chevys and Pontiacs as dailys. I have had excellent vehicles and few lemons along the way. They all fail no matter what make they are! One of the worst vehicles was the last generation Pontiac Vibe (aka Toyota matrix) had many troubles with trans downshift with bang into second on downshift, blown A/C line, an overhead console that would not stop making noise and center caps that would leave the wheels at will. That car was gone in a 1.5 years.

The wife and I both have the previous generation of Silverados the wife has a 2014 crew cab and I have a 2017 double cab. Both have been excellent vehicles. The wifes has had a lot of recalls but none that we had issues with operations and those a wayyyyy better looking than the latest and greatest! Pat

 

My first love in a car was the 66 4-4-2, of course with the W30 option. My first car was an Olds, and my second, third, fourth. When GM mismanagement killed Olds (it didn't just "die"), I decided that I would never buy another new GM car or truck. What those bean counting heretics are now doing to Buick is exactly what they have been doing for decades. Do your part to take them off life support.

 

Wait. GM trucks have TWO different sizes of rear doors? Why? Is the market really that fragmented that there needs to be wide and narrow back door versions of the crew cab?

 

I'd tap the brakes on Ford. I had an Explorer Limited and it was a POS plus the dealer network is garbage. I ended up paying thousands to break the lease early & got my wife an Infiniti SUV. I'm not an SUV guy but she loves it.

Think about it with Ford - their two most important cars are the Escape and the focus. The reliability of both are garbage.

 

Yes, Toyota does that as well. The idea is to:

1. Keep the truck not horribly long.
2. Provide big backseat for big men.
or
2. Provide full sheet of plyboard hauling bed.
3. Fit it on the same chassis.

 

Double cab replaced the "extended cab" with the suicide doors. Not sure why, but if you're going 4 doors, Crew Cab FTW. Extended cab/Double cab is useless IMO. You really couldn't say cost is a concern, because you can save up a few more dimes when you're already spending around 34-35K for a truck's base price. Around 2400 more for the Crew Cab. And you get much more room IMO. Double cab makes no sense unless you were going for a single cab and got a deal that brought the price of a double down to the single cab price. Otherwise...

 

And yet, all my crewcabs up to now have had full size rear doors and back seat AND an 8ft bed. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I never knew why GM needed a short Tahoe, a long Tahoe, AND a Suburban.

I knew Dodge, er RAM, had started the "Mega cab" thing a few years ago. Didn't realize that GM followed suit. Sorry, but Toyota still doesn't make real trucks.

Of course, all this is irrelevant to me - I have no plans to buy any truck newer than my 1999 K3500.

 

Actually the double is not worthless! The idea is to haul people, again not in super comfort because the back needs to have a couple of inches tipped back to be comfortable. But still have a 8ft bed.

The crew can be had with the long box. Which I did test drive an LTZ crew in diamond white with the long bed, I felt like I was turning the Titanic! And the 58,000 MSRP did not help either.

Pat

 

I will NOT tolerate comments like that. If Eric or IB Jose want to "undelete" these posts they can feel free to, but if they do I will no longer serve as a Moderator.