Back in the 70s Olds engines were disproportionately used in marine applications. Why were they so popular?

 

455s make massive amounts of torque at low-mid RPM, so they can spin an impeller very well.

 

Sure, but Olds engines hardly had a monopoly on mid-range torque.

 

Olds 455's were lighter than big block chebbys.

 

There were probably twice as many mercruisers than olds

 

But the Olds motors were used in jet boats.

 

Marine/ industrial engine marketing. BBO were also used in irrigation pump engine applications and other areas where a strong, long lasting and easily serviced engine was desired.


The industrial engines got most of the high-performance goodies. Nothing as radical as W30 but they had good heads, cams etc.

 

At the end, olds had giant warehouses full of engines with no place to go....olds had a fixed efficiency point of operation - perfect for the narrow operating bandwidth of a berkeley or jaccuzi jet pump....match made in heaven.

plus the high nickel content helped with corrosion for a cooling system that was charged literally by excess pump pressure....they did not need a water pump, just turning over the motor forced high pressure lake water inside...

the stockpile was so large, 455s kept showing up in new jet boats well into the 80's. I had a friend who got a 17fter with a jacuzzi and a 455 built in late 78-79 from <insert small southern cali builder name here>. I ran like a dragster to 50mph and would pop 4 slalom skiers up at once, but without a jetovator (essentially a trim system for jet boats) it was done. once I got my 19fter with the 305 to the same crank hp (300), it was a new game ;-)

 

I was in the USCG in 1973 when the boat stations started receiving Spectra boats with Olds 455 engines. I know they were used a lot in places like Lake Havasu and Lake Tahoe. They were also with the boat stations in Long Beach, CA. In the end, the USCG surveyed all of them by around 1978. The word going around was that we didn't have anyone that could properly service and maintain those engines!

Randy C.

 

What an interesting thread and question. Always thought why the Olds engine was routinely used for marine use, but never asked. Now it makes sense.

 

I don't think it was anything special other than some boat manufacturers got a good deal in price. All the manufacturers had engines in boats, RV's, and industrial applications since the dawn of the automobile.

 

well define 'routinely used'

In the time frame we had: (4 stroke marine engines 4-8 cyl)

purpose built volvo 2.1L I4's
Idmar I6's (exact maker unclear, I think they were outsourced)
chevy v8s, small and large
GM industrial/forklift 2.5L I4's
ford windsors and 385's
chrysler small (318, 360) and large (383, 440)
I think, but am not sure that a 150hp version of someones 3.8l v6 was out in 1980-ish as well
and of course the 455

like I said, the jet pumps had a very narrow range of operating RPM and the fact that the BBO was done making power by 3800-ish rpm, was fine. Since the rpm was going to be limited by fixed inlet, outlet size, impellor pitch etc you got your 300hp nearly 1000rpm less than the competitor.

the motors IIRC were nothing really special, in fact, were a bunch of non-EGR low comp b/c car motors with marine Qjets, holleys and one more that escapes me, reassembled to marine spec. free of emissions, exhaust etc, they made sweet noise.

 

Slightly on topic: I once owned the batboat. Well, the boat the batboat was based off of anyway. A 1966 V-174 SS Glastron. Had it while in Pittsburgh and I cruised the rivers with it a few summers. Even had it out in a huge storm where I almost sank it. I miss that thing.

 

by any chance did it migrate to raystown? I recall seeing one circa 1993ish there

 

I bought mine from the original owner in Mercer County, PA. The guy I sold it to was from out around Philly. I think it was 2008 when I sold it.

 

I see this line many times like a buzz word for a sale.High nickel content! This should be a thread probable that it has been. I have seen no proof of any difference other than the claims.

 

We've had this discussion, the hi nickel content myth is just that...
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...ur-engine.html

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...kel-block.html

Pay attn in particular to post 42

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...do-engine.html

 

yessir, but with all due respect, post #42 is just flat wrong in its conclusion.

[history/engineering lesson alert - bail while you can]

It has long since been the case, back when iron was the prevalent casting material, that the OEMs chose 1 and only 1 'mix' for the stew across the product line.

To my knowledge, chevrolet is the only large scale maker that had a regular, planned difference. to wit: the best hipo blocks from chevy had the 010 020 casting marks on them, which meant simply 1% tin, 2% nickel and some might argue, heckfire, that is not much. however this combo was not so much designed to increase the brinell hardness but rather vastly improve the tensile strength of the block and as such the 010/020 blocks were MOSTLY the 3970010 blocks - the desired ones. racing crap where the stresses were different than the daily driver

cast combos of simply 020 (2% Ni) 010 (1% Ni) and zip (nodular) were also found with the 010 and zip being the least desirable motor - the chevy 307

Otherwise, other makers simply dreamed up a mix and kept it the same for the ENTIRE product line. Of the top 3 offenders, in order from hardest: AMC, Caddy, Olds.

Ask any machinist indeed. IT would be ask any machinist still alive who remembers because lets face it, no one is boring amc, caddy or olds iron motors anymore and had not in 30 years. Back in the day when we did such silly things, there was an increased charge for these motors.

The cutting tools are just better nowadays and I see anecdotes such as 'went thru like butter', poppycrap! well the cut rate of a piece (and those who should know) is dependent on the material of the tool, the pitch of the cutting surface, the feed rate into the material, the rpm of the tool and the method of cooling (such as flood vs mist) The centroid machines I worked on and demo'd cut medical stainless which had so much chromium to last a lifetime inserted into your behind (sometimes literally) so todays equipment can cut hard material to a mirror finish.

AS for post 42, I am not a mettalurgist, but I did take enuf mat sci and solid state physics courses in college to know that a TINY bit of THE RIGHT foreign material will greatly alter the properties of the base material. The machine you are using to read this post is a prime example) while the nickel content might seem low, the Cr content is high which is an alternate path with a lesser amount of nickel (but not zero) to produce a hard casting. (but has its own fleas)

AND, its REAL close to the published mix of AMC and Caddy. coincidence? I think not.

(besides, do you really think the windowed blocks would have survived *at all* had not the tensile strength been improved?)

and of course if the issue is saying 'high nickel' - meh, ok fine, hardened. but the point being, hardened iron alloys are far more corrosion resistant than non. which was sort of the point.

while everyone seems to accept chome (chomemoly, chromalloy etc) rings and honda motorcycle frames et al, it never occured that perhaps these long dead engineers decided a hard block and simple ductile rings might be a better answer?

I did a quick search, but came up empty of an article I had in the 83/84 time frame when I was in college and had my first 2 cars (both olds cutli with 350's). It was a low buck buildup of a 350 - of interest to a poor college only working weekends at a dealership of course. And in it they went into detail on the hardness of the olds blocks and how that 100K mile version would only have a bore taper of .005-.007. Bore taper, as you well know is the MAIN reason you overbore a non-scarred motor. The trick of the day was to knurl the pistons (cut groves around the skirt and body of the piston) to restore clearance around the bore.

it might sound like voodoo and witchcraft, but its how business was done.

ps: did anyone attempt to read the 442 faq which alludes to different mettalurgy in the older stuff? I know its been out there for over 20 years which was about when I first read it

 

Gee where does a guy start. The high nickel is a myth plain and simple.Oldcutlass is right. I forgot about the thread.I worked in a foundry back in the seventy's. I was a furnace operator. I also maintained/repaired my furnace on a daily basis before the daily pour.

 

ok fair 'nuff. what was in it? which maker did you pour for?

 

I often wondered why Olds Rocket engines were not installed in Jet Airplanes?

 

I didn't say i was involved in Oldsmobile castings for GM. I did make cast iron pours on a daily basis.The name was Walton foundry. Built molds for oil field equipment,forklifts,big drop press's and a four cylinder engine block. There were so many small parts i really have no ideal what they were.I was reaffirming what oldcutlass posted.Cast iron can be made with used cast iron remelt as well as fresh material.If you choose to believe in high nickel Oldsmobile blocks go ahead.

 

On a side note the green people is why almost all foundry work is now in other country's.

 

I have been scanning for the threads re: this nickel notion. Nothing was ever debunked.

Tests I have found show that in cast iron applications 1% of nickel increase netted 30% increase in tensile strength.
There are a lot of tests papers out there that show a mere 0.25% - .5% increase in Nickel, increases yield strength and tensile strength.
Variables are rampant, alloy properties change in combinations of different degrees when used in conjunction with other material... I think in our cast ion blocks Cr and Mg too.

So in summary, To mention "high" nickel is relative and proportionate to what quantitative effects it has. HIGH NICKEL can be a mere 0.25% to 1% increase of nickel !!

Has anyone answered this:
What was the Olds engineers' intent to use more nickel, if they ever did?
Just some of the factors to consider are yield strength, tensile strength, thermal expansion (hmmm), corrosion resistance, (marine? many Olds in boats).

Maybe the intent was more about the foundry process and not necessarily the result for application use.
I have never worked in a foundry, I am curious. what effect does mineral content such as Ni, Cr, Mg have in the foundry process with regards to thermal properties , tempering, quenching, etc?

WR1970 you were spot on in your post. Many metallurgy publications back up several of your contentions.

 

I think the proper phrasing should be nothing was ever proven.

Debunked implies that it was said in the first place in an official fashion. I have never heard it from anyone reputable.

 

It seems we have morphed from marine Oldsmobile engines to nickel content in engine blocks. Could it be that Oldsmobile blocks resisted the corrosive effects of sea water better than some others?.
Could it be that people who subscribe to an Oldsmobile forum will be more likely to recognise an Oldsmobile engine when other might just see a marine V8?.

Were the manufacturers really keen to make very long lasting engines?, surely they wanted you to buy a new car instead?. But for industrial and marine engines longevity, ease of maintenance, and reliability would be important factors. Also as has been said, most of these engines were only required to operate at a fixed speed, and I guess would be pretty awful in a street driven car.

Roger.

 

One of the reasons Olds engines were popular for irrigation was the ability to run in low RPM for a long period of time. The 350 was also used and a friend of mine from Cleveland had a pair of 350 that rotated in opposite directions for use in a twin screw boat. I have also heard of them being used in tugs. I bough a marine 455 with 1973 casting dates and it came with "K" heads, high compression ,a special flywheel, a specific distributor and carburetor. It had a unique water pump that had the outlet for a heater hose blocked off.

 

If the nickel content was that big of a deal to effect engine longevity, don't you think the marketing gurus would have capitalized on it? There would have been notes and references all over the sales brochures and other advertisements comparing Oldsmobile engines to the competition.

 

Engines have plenty of other wear items besides cylinder wall wear. Had these lasted longer, bearings would have gone, valves/valvetrain... After 100K miles, these components would have doomed the average 60's engine regardless of cylinder wall wear. And of course, the average 60s car would have fallen apart around that block in that time...So why bother?

 

Regarding Olds' use in irrigation and marine...

When I was a young mechanic in the 1960s, I was told that the engines in the more expensive GM makes lasted longer between overhauls than Chevrolet engines.

I was also told there was less bore taper when the engine was in for rebuild.

And put yourself in the mind of the executives of these premium GM makes. They wanted to differentiate their cars from the cheaper makes. One obvious way was to increase reliability. As long as it didn't cost too much, increasing engine life would be an outstanding way to accomplish this differentiation.

Most car buyers in that era had lived through the Depression, which tended to make them more conscious of operating cost and longevity than we are used to today.

It was part of the executives' jobs to determine a design life for the engine and the engine designers would figure the cheapest way to get there.

The secret sauce may not be nickel, but may be something as straightforward as using lower-numerical axle ratios behind larger displacement engines. In any case, extended engine life would have been more important to Olds top executives than it was to Chev top executives who would be more concerned with getting a lower price on the window sticker.

Chev buyers reacted more strongly to price than the buyers of the premium GM makes who were more concerned with image and reliability.

You may rightly consider this all hearsay and supposition. But it is all logical and suits the era. And it would explain the disproportional use of Olds engines for non-car applications.

 

Nothing like a boat with a BBO. The sound is pure music. My neighbor growing up had a Boat with a 455 tunnel ram dual quad. I think I was 7-8 ish. Hed fire it up in a surburbia and everyone's windows rattled. Which usually signaled me to come out and hang with him while he tweaked the carbs....Olds is in the blood since wayyyy back.

 

man growing up i lived in a lake town there was a restaurant run by a crazy hungarian named julio.he had a 455 jet boat.he would go out at like 630 in the morning fire it up and whail around the lake wide open,i lived about 4 blocks from the lake and could hear him from start to finish,they finally kicked him off the lake.

 

My dad is an old boat racer from the 50's. In between car projects, I built a 1973 19' Wreidt Maverick jet boat for him to play around in back in 2005. It had an Olds 455 with Berkeley 12C impeller. I added a Place diverter for better jet position and turning . They live on a lake in CA at 4500 feet. With only the driver in the boat, we were able to get it to 53 miles an hour. I'm kinda glad it didn't go faster as my father was in his late 70's at the time and my mother was worried he would kill himself. Loved the boat, but with a growing family, the jet boat was just not family friendly. I still see it at the lake and running as strong as ever. Here are a couple of photos .
Steve

101107 001.jpg101107 009.jpgAl Boat Close1.jpgcarpet and cubbies 013.jpgcarpet and cubbies 007.jpgGrabbed Frame 1.jpg

 

In regards to nickel content in blocks. I saw a program on U.S. Steel, that stated up until the early 1970's they were not able to control alloy mixtures in the steel to an exacting degree. One batch would be different than the next even though the intent was for the steel to be the same.
Various manufactures would mark items made with the steel with different stampings to help identify them.
This helped in identifying problems as far as warranty work and deficiencies were concerned.

 

I came into possession of an Olds jet boat carburetor back in the 80s. The metering rods appeared to be set up for two conditions: idle and WOT. It had the skinniest metering rods I had ever seen.

 

RocketDevo, And to your point, blocks were stamped in the rear with designations from the foundry starting with an F and a numerical value, that as I understand it/interpret was depicting the alloy mixtures.
Indication it was about the process perhaps and not the application use.

Some possibilities for the nickel content dilemma, seems these are the leading thoughts.:
1. Merely a foundry process demarcation.
2. On the flip side, if there was a reason it makes some sense it was about perhaps for the marine & industrial uses (thermal expansion properties & more corrosion resistance).
3. IMO the least likely reason, if there was an application use reason at all, was to increase the block strength that we can all ponder over 40-50 years later. LOL
4. Nickel content is a myth. ( then see See #1)

I found a professor's name that was called an expert in the Automakers steel/iron foundry process for engine blocks etc. I have half a notion to attempt reaching out to him to see if he has any knowledge of the high nickel dilemma.

~J

 

That is a REALLY nice water craft
WOW

 

I have Olds blocks with F68 etc cast into them , bell housing area
never seen "stamp" besides the front drivers side pad
VIN and Jet Boat #'s are there

 

As I read that line it reminded me of when I was a youngster and seeing the speedboats at Lake Isabella. My Dad was a Lake Patrolman on that lake for a long time but Isabella is only ~2500 ft. elevation.

And to throw a little more wood on the Nickel fire, I worked for a carrot packing plant for a while as a mechanic and we were able to get 3, 4, and sometimes 5 lifetime rebuilds out of the International engines without a cylinder overbore, just a hone, and the reason given was because of the high nickel content. Dunno if that was true or not, but the reality of the rebuilds was a fact.