mugzilla

Rare car = rare buyer so it might take a while to hook up ...

A nice low option Mustang might only bring 10 Gs' but it will happen quickly as there are many Mustang buyers ...

jaunty75

The price guides do not break down prices to this level of detail. Year, make, model, body style, engine if more than one was available, possibly transmission, that's it. There no adds or subtracts for options or mileage. Also need to know general condition of the car (parts car, driveable but needing restoration, decent restoration, concourse quality, etc.)

You haven't said the body style, and you haven't said the condition, so the info below (from the February 2010 Old Cars Price Guide) is for a '70 442 in #3 condition (decent restoration, car show quality, but not showroom condition).

2-door coupe: $19,350
2-door hardtop: $21,150
convertible: $27,000.

Dan Wirth

Pricing cars is subjective with or without the guides. I look at some of the top quality cars around and if I had the money, would not care too much about the price. IMO, it all hinges on what you like, what you can afford and your willingness to pay. The more I get into this great hobbie/life style and the guides, the more I find them nebulous. So do they serve as better than nothing for a quick reference? Maybe... I honestly don't know how or what these guides base their analysis and results on - as the variables (statistically) seem to be a giant moving target, and thus appear invalid to a large degree with them. So when the they say it's a guide - okay fine, but to me it really doesn't mean much when the actual variables (like true restoration costs - time and expense, as well as economic conditions at the time) are way out of line with their average guideline parameters, especially if solely based based on historical data.

jaunty75

But what you put INTO a car in terms of time, money, and effort has never determined what its value to someone else is. One of the oldest truisms in the old car hobby is that you never make back what you put into a car when you sell it. Another is that, if you want to have the best chance of getting the most for your money when you buy a car, take advantage of that first truism and buy a car in as good a condition as you can afford. It'll cost more to buy a junker and restore it to showroom condition than it costs to simply buy one already IN showroom condition.

aliensatemybuick

I ended up buying my last car for exactly 55% of the original asking price, which was ridiculous, and I suspect based upon what the price guides would suggest a number 1 car would go for. I saw it for the first time in March of this year, and realized it would be pointless to offer the (elderly) seller so much less than he was asking, so I politely told him it was a nice car (which it was, despite its issues) but not what I was looking for. I know there are some who would feel the need to beat the guy over the head with the reality that his car was overpriced, but I figured it made more sense to let him figure it out on his own.

Several months later, reality must have set in and he lowered his price considerably (though still not enough in my opinion). A couple months after that, I E-mailed him a politely worded low ball offer figuring I'd have nothing to lose, and he came back with a counter-offer which was pretty much what I wanted to pay for the car in the first place. I am convinced that the courtesy I showed him after my first look helped in my negotiations.

I think I got an OK deal, but I'm sure there are some who would say I still paid too much for the car. Regardless, I doubt the final sale price of the car will ever be reflected in the price guides. I'll say this: I would probably have paid a bit more for the car if that was what it would have taken to buy it. At some point, you have to weigh desire against reality. Sellers probably have to do the same. There's just no way a price guide is ever going to be accurate when desire to sell, desire to buy, condition and rarity of the car are so highly variable. Its a case by case situaton.

Price guides are probably good for buyers to show their spouses they got a good deal (if the published price is higher than paid), or for sellers to show they made out like a bandit (if its lower).

jaunty75

I think that YOU were a very nice person. It's a dog-eat-dog world out there, and while I don't think I would have beaten him over the head, if I were interested in the car, I would have had no qualms in offering him, in a polite way, what I thought it was worth. He can always say no, and until one tries, one never knows. Some sellers are more motivated than they appear while others really are willing to wait months or years in an attempt to get their asking price.

aliensatemybuick

Actually, I am NOT a very nice person, but figured the seller didn't have to know that. Also, back in March, I wasn't sure I wanted the car. Over the intervening months, reality set it for ME as well...realizing that most of the cars I was finding were either overpriced rusty junk or overpriced spit-shine jobs offered by dealer/flippers. it took me some months to realize that this was the rare beast that was pretty much everything I wanted and (as it worked out) attainable within the budget I had to work with.

Also, I made my much later low-ball (but polite) offer by E-mail, figuring that if it p*ssed the seller off, he'd either ignore it or send me a curt refusal. Quite different than having someone in person potentially get enraged enough to tell you to get the h*ll off their property.

jaunty75

A wise strategy!

Dan Wirth

Good point here...

Funny thing, I sold my 97 Nissan Sentra the other day for a bit lower than half what I paid for it two years ago, as it was pretty thrashed by my step son. I showed the buyer the original invoice from the dealer and he was smiling from ear to ear on the deal (it was only a fair deal, given the condition of the car). It does show that price history counts to some.

But I think as the car buying and selling knowledge base increases with an individual, historical pricing data becomes less important. Thus, knowing your buyers and sellers (as well as the car) becomes a more important part of the equation.

mugzilla

When I drive a classic car with the owner along I drive very respectably and if he doesn't go along I still drive off at a decent pace ...

These cars are like family and people like to think their baby is going to a good home ...

I've done well with the ; offer and let them contact you ...

Plus when someone decides to sell they find out about all the windbags that have been stroking them about buying the car, and they like the "Cash" offer ...

jaunty75

...and then floor it when you get around the corner?

mugzilla

Out of earshot ...

...

MN71W30

The older I get the less I low ball people. If the price seems fair I just give them the money.

jaunty75

This is good to know. I'll keep your contact info handy for when I next want to sell a car.

German442

What I THINK I read from Joe is the same thing that bothers me:
It's not about the fact that it's a guide- It's about listing completely erroneous info that other (not so experienced) potential buyers then base their decisions on! Won't happen to me, but, still, if I were to claim I know as much as Joe or WMachine & someone based their decision on what I said, I personally would be embarrassed- & I'm just a hobbyist, not a guide that purports being professional.
Nothing against varying prices, etc, but the info should at least be accurate. How many times have there been '65-67 442's for sale w/ 455s in them? According to the above, they're worth more than w/ an original 400!

Ralph

oldcutlass

Price guides are ok, but it takes 2 persons to agree to consumate a car deal!!

But what is a 1967 Cutlass Holiday Coupe, 330- 320 hp/ automatic, with 123K original miles, with an ugly paint color/ worn interior, and in need of a thorough going thru really worth??

My seller thought her asking price of $10k with the intent on settling for $7500 (her purchasing price 1 year ago) was reasonable!!
I gave $5000 for this one, and stuck about $3800 more in it!!! And it is still that color and still not finished!!! And I probably gave more than I should in hind sight! But my first car was a 67 Cutlass and I thought it would be cool for my sons car to be the same. Let me tell you there is alot of junk out there in this price range!!

My goal in doing these older cars is not as an investment. Its the joy of ownership and possibly to break even when done playing with them!!

jaunty75

You haven't said the body style or whether or not it's a Cutlass or a Cutlass Supreme, but a '67 Cutlass in #4 condition, which I think is correct based on your description, is shown in the OCPG as having a value in the $2000 to $2500 range if it's a 4-door and in the $3000 to $3500 range if it's a 2-door. If it's a convertible, $4500 to $5000 would be the range for #4 condition.

oldcutlass

Cutlass Supreme
2 door coupe
matching numbers
all original (cept the rose color)
330/ 320 h.p automatic (300 variable vane 2 spd)
Running - driving car, absolutely no rust, and no one had ever been into the engine!!!

Nada Classic Car book low retail now is $5200 + 15% for 330.
So how do you put a value on that!!

Its the one in the picture after $3800 worth of work!!!

66ninetyeightls

Interesting Optional Equipment List for my 1966 Ninety Eight LS.




Check Applicable Options and Equipment:
330/310 HP V8 Engine
4 Speed Transmission
400/350 HP V8 Engine
425/365 HP V8 Engine
425/375 HP V8 Engine
442 Model L-69 Tri-carb
6 Cylinder Engine
Air Conditioning
W30 Package

oldcutlass

Are you the 1 with the:

6 cly
4spd
w-30

jaunty75

A few comments:

None of these price guides go into this level of detail. For example, the OCPG just says "V-8" as far as engine. No horsepower, no cubic inches. No mention of matching numbers or not. No mention of all original or not. All of these things, to the extent they apply to a particular car, will affect the price accordingly. The OCPG value is just an average for all '67 Cutlass Supreme 2-door coupes in a certain condition.


We already know that the NADA guide has some errors. But even without them, the NADA guide is different from the OCPG. The OCPG attempts to give a price for a car in any condition ranging all the way from just this side of junk to better than showroom new. By contrast, the NADA guide is ONLY interested in old cars that are already in collectible condition. When it says "low retail," "average retail," and "high retail," it's not referring cars at three different levels of condition. It's just referring to the RANGE of prices for a car that's basically IN showroom condition. So I would argue that the value in the NADA guide is not applicable to your car because it's not in showroom condition.


This is something that car sellers mistakenly assume matters. It's the reason one does not treat a collector car as an investment. No buyer cares that much how much you've put into the car. They're only interested in what's the lowest price you'll sell it for, and how does that price compare to what people who are selling similar cars are asking for theirs. Sure, if you've JUST rebuilt the engine and it's got very few miles on the rebuild, that will count for something. But, on the other hand, buyers expect the car to have an engine, so the fact that yours has one is no big deal. But again, like I say, all of these issues factor into any particular car's value. Certainly some of that $3800 you put into the car can be recovered when you sell it. But not likely all of it.

wmachine

[QUOTE=jaunty75;133292]
The NADA guide is different from the OCPG. The OCPG attempts to give a price for a car in any condition ranging all the way from just this side of junk to better than showroom new. By contrast, the NADA guide is ONLY interested in old cars that are already in collectible condition. When it says "low retail," "average retail," and "high retail," it's not referring cars at three different levels of condition. It's just referring to the RANGE of prices for a car that's basically IN showroom condition. So I would argue that the value in the NADA guide is not applicable to your car because it's not in showroom condition.

Where do you get this information?

oldcutlass

This is what nada bases their opinion on:

1967 Oldsmobile Cutlass 2 Door Hardtop Coupe


Low Retail Value
This vehicle would be in mechanically functional condition, needing only minor reconditioning. The exterior paint, trim, and interior would show normal wear, needing only minor reconditioning. May also be a deteriorated restoration or a very poor amateur restoration. Most usable "as-is".

Some of the vehicles in this publication could be considered "Daily Drivers" and are not valued as a classic vehicle. When determining a value for a daily driver, it is recommended that the subscriber use the low retail value.

Note: This value does not represent a "parts car".


Average Retail Value
This vehicle would be in good condition overall. It could be an older restoration or a well-maintained original vehicle. Completely operable. The exterior paint, trim, and mechanics are presentable and serviceable inside and out. A "20-footer".


High Retail Value
This vehicle would be in excellent condition overall. It could be a completely restored or an extremely well maintained original vehicle showing very minimal wear. The exterior paint, trim, and mechanics are not in need of reconditioning. The interior would be in excellent condition.

Note: This value does not represent a "100 Point" or "# 1" vehicle *. * "100 Point" or "# 1" vehicle is not driven. It would generally be in a museum or transported in an enclosed trailer to concourse judging and car shows. This type of car would be stored in a climate-regulated facility.

Dan Wirth

[quote=jaunty75;133292]A few comments:
We already know that the NADA guide has some errors. But even without them, the NADA guide is different from the OCPG. The OCPG attempts to give a price for a car in any condition ranging all the way from just this side of junk to better than showroom new. By contrast, the NADA guide is ONLY interested in old cars that are already in collectible condition. When it says "low retail," "average retail," and "high retail," it's not referring cars at three different levels of condition. It's just referring to the RANGE of prices for a car that's basically IN showroom condition. So I would argue that the value in the NADA guide is not applicable to your car because it's not in showroom condition.

I agree with Jaunty to some extent here.

Here's what the NADA Guide says at Introduction (in part): "The value guide lists current retail market values on classic, collectible and special interest domestic/import cars and trucks. The values in the guide assumes the vehicle is in better than average condition We have determined that older cars and trucks in better than average condition, or "Cherry", still retain exceptional value. When valuing classic and collectable cars, the overall condition, mileage and originality of the vehicle are major factors. You may find the values in this guide higher than the Older Car Guide and other publications. Vehicles in this guide are considered to be in original condition...

jaunty75

I went by this description at the NADA site for "low retail" condition:

"This vehicle would be in mechanically functional condition, needing only minor reconditioning. The exterior paint, trim, and interior would show normal wear, needing only minor reconditioning."

I'm probably not correct in calling this "showroom condition", but I would also not call this a car needing a full restoration, or in need of a "thorough going through," to use oldscutlass's words. The operable word here, to me, is "minor." To me, this is describing a "20-footer," which is what the OCPG calls a #3 condition car. From his description, I think that oldcutlass's car needs more than minor restoration and so does not fall into this category.



The NADA site also makes this comment about the "low retail" value:

"Some of the vehicles in this publication could be considered "Daily Drivers" and are not valued as a classic vehicle. When determining a value for a daily driver, it is recommended that the subscriber use the low retail value."

This is comparable to a #4 condition car in the OCPG, which also uses the word "driver" in describing a car in this condition. What's confusing, at least to me, is that NADA, by its own words, doesn't consider a car in such a condition a collector car. But then it says to use the low-end, collector car value for the value of such a car.

If one uses the NADA "low retail" value for a #4 car, then there is quite a bit of difference (a factor of 2) between what it says and what the OCPG says. I think that NADA's "low retail" value more correctly applies to a #3 condition car, which is probably the lowest-condition a car can be and be considered more than a "driver" and get into at least the low end of the "classic" or "collector car" range.


By the way, I think that people are coming down rather hard on the NADA site for providing this option checklist:


Check Applicable Options and Equipment:
330/310 HP V8 Engine
330/320 HP V8 Engine
4 Speed Transmission
400/350 HP V8 Engine
425/365 HP V8 Engine
425/375 HP V8 Engine
6 Cylinder Engine
Air Conditioning
W-30 Package


This checklist appears for any Oldsmobile model you choose, whether it's a 98, a 442, or a Vista Crusier. In other words, it's not context-sensitive. It's just a list of all the options that might have been available on any Oldsmobile sold that year. For example, I check the "W-30" box for my car, a 1967 Delta 88 convertible, and I don't think a W-30 option package was available for my car. The site then gives a value and simply says add 25% for the W-30. You would think and hope it would say, "sorry, that option wasn't available for this car." But it doesn't.

If I check "6-cylinder engine," it says to subtract 10%. Again, I don't think a six was available for the Delta 88s. These comments about adding or subtracting a certain amout are obviously nonsense, but I don't think the NADA guide is trying hard to be perfect in this regard. They just telling you, generally, what particular options, if available for your car, add to or subtract from its value. They're assuming that you know enough about your car to click the applicable options and ignore the rest.



I admit that it ain't a perfect world.

jaunty75

Dan Wirth, thank you. Your last paragraph I think pretty much says it. The NADA guide is concerned with high-end old cars. The OCPG and "other publications" are trying to cover all old cars.

wmachine

"It could be an older restoration or a well-maintained original vehicle. Completely operable. The exterior paint, trim, and mechanics are presentable and serviceable inside and out. A "20-footer"."

That does not describe a "high-end" car to me. The definition "high-end" can be debated, but "showroom" condition doesn't have much latitude. Showroom condition is a 100 point car that even NADA says *doesn't* apply to their values.
What does "concerned with" mean? Sales are sales. If it is a "20-footer" is counts. According to them, not my opinion.
OPG does cover some lower end conditions that NADA doesn't, but I don't see where one guides higher end is any different that the others.

jaunty75

I think that, roughly, the NADA guide's conditions and the OCPG's conditons line up this way:

OCPG #1 ("better than showroom condition, not driven, trailered eveywhere") = NADA "high end value"

OCPG #2 ("showoom condition") = NADA "average value"

OCPG #3 (a "20-footer, what you mostly see at car shows and cruise-ins") = NADA "low end value"

OCPG #4 ("operable but needing full restoration, daily driver") = no corresponding NADA value, although they would say that their "low end value" describes this

OCPG #5 ("not necessarily operating, missing major components, but restorable and better than just for parts") = no corresponding NADA value

OCPG #6 ("good only for parts") = no corresponding NADA value

Dan Wirth

I wonder if NADA even has a no.1 OCPG equivalent, as per Jaunty's comparison (which appears to be a fairly good assessment, by the way).

IMO, there's no holds barred on prices with "Better than Showroom" quality (like Museum quality or cars extra fine/mint and trailered everywhere - the Pebble Beach kind of cars - if this is what OCPG is talking about).

oldcutlass

Nada reads as such:
Please note last paragraph!


Low Retail Value
This vehicle would be in mechanically functional condition, needing only minor reconditioning. The exterior paint, trim, and interior would show normal wear, needing only minor reconditioning. May also be a deteriorated restoration or a very poor amateur restoration. Most usable "as-is".

Some of the vehicles in this publication could be considered "Daily Drivers" and are not valued as a classic vehicle. When determining a value for a daily driver, it is recommended that the subscriber use the low retail value.

Note: This value does not represent a "parts car".


Average Retail Value
This vehicle would be in good condition overall. It could be an older restoration or a well-maintained original vehicle. Completely operable. The exterior paint, trim, and mechanics are presentable and serviceable inside and out. A "20-footer".


High Retail Value
This vehicle would be in excellent condition overall. It could be a completely restored or an extremely well maintained original vehicle showing very minimal wear. The exterior paint, trim, and mechanics are not in need of reconditioning. The interior would be in excellent condition.

Note: This value does not represent a "100 Point" or "# 1" vehicle *. * "100 Point" or "# 1" vehicle is not driven. It would generally be in a museum or transported in an enclosed trailer to concourse judging and car shows. This type of car would be stored in a climate-regulated facility.

I would think OCPG #4 is NADA Low Retail

OCPG #3 is Average NADA

OCPG #2 is High NADA

OCPG#1 - I guess from what you describe is for 90+ point cars which NADA does not address!!

However - it still boils down to what will someone cut a check for!!! I can argue that restoring a car can get really pricey. Like I said I felt this car was worth $5000 based on comparible cars in the area in the same condition. Sure there was some sentimental value from my childhood. And yes I still dumped another $3800 in it and am not finished yet. To which I may or may not recoup.

But hey there is the entertainment value!!

jaunty75

Let's use my own car as an example.


1967 Delta 88 convertible:

OCPG #1 condition: $22,000.
NADA "high retail value": $28,100

OCPG #2 condition: $15,400
NADA "average retail value": $18,900

OCPG #3 condition: $9,900
NADA "low retail value": $9,050

OCPG #4 condition: $4,400 (my car is in this condition, and I paid $4700 for it)

OCPG #5 condition: $2,640

OCPG #6 condition: $880


To me, the correlation among the first three sets of values is pretty good considering that these are just averages undoubtedly taken from different sources. The exact values certainly differ, but the magnitudes are in agreement.



I agree that coming up with values for a #1 condition car is likely the most difficult as the sky can be the limit for cars at this level. One need only watch the Mecum auctions on HD Theater to see what cars sometimes go for. I would say that most of the cars sold there are #1. Several times I've seen the announcers ask a just-successful bidder what they're going to do with their just-acquired car, and the answer is usually "put it in a private museum" or "put it in a private collection." The cars will not ever be driven.

wmachine

You "think", but not at all what NADA says. Read under "High Value", it spcifically says "Note: This value does not represent a "100 Point" or "# 1" vehicle *. " That is showroom condition. So NADA starts *after* OCPG #2.
Just guarding against truth decay here.

jaunty75

Let's do your car and see. The OCPG DOES describe a #1 car as you have it. But the values they give tell a different story.



1967 Cutlass Supreme 2-door hardtop with the 330 engine/320 hp (I checked that box on the NADA site):

OCPG #1 condition: $18,000
NADA "high retail": $16,330

OCPG #2 condtion: $12,600
NADA "average retail": $10,638

OCPG #3 condition: $8,100
NADA "low retail": $5,951

OCPG #4 condition: $3,600


These values are closer to each other the way they're shown than they would be if one lined up, say, the OCPG #2 with the NADA high retail.

In each case, the NADA value is about $2000 below the OCPG value.

For my car, the variation is larger, but so is the overall range of values.


No one has ever disagreed with either statement. These guides help you in getting into the ballpark when wanting to know a car's value when buying or selling and nothing more. Each individual car is different.

jaunty75

You can never just make a comment, can you? Always have to get a dig in.


I posted the NADA and OCPG values for two different examples, and I think they speak for themselves with regard to what correlates with what, regardless of what the NADA site OR the OCPG guide says about what their condition levels mean.

oldcutlass

The problem with Mecum is you don't see most of the undercarriage. Alot of those are High quality drivers. I have a border line #1 Plymouth Fury as an older resto but I enjoy it and drive it on sunny days. Nada says its worth only $15 -16K but you could not even duplicate this car for that.

You cannot go by most of these guides when it comes to the obscure cars (anything other than the usual Chevelles, GTO's Camaro's, 442's, etc...

Its whatever the market will bear. You can easily dump a ton of money in 1 even if you do most of the work yourself.

jaunty75

You're comparing apples and oranges here. What is costs to restore a car or build one from scratch or how much money you dump into it is not related to what it's worth in the open market and never has been.

Have you tried to SELL this Fury? If you ever do, let us know what it actually sells for. That's the value to use when looking at the NADA guide, and then we'll be able to judge better how right or wrong it is. But even then, the NADA is only telling you averages, not what one particular car will sell for or what one particular car has sold for. Take ALL the Furys like yours that have sold recently and average those sale prices, and then compare THAT to the NADA number. That's the only real way to tell how accurate it is.

oldcutlass

I'm in the car business- I understand how the guides work, I'm just saying with the old cars it really has no bearing.

With late model cars the value is there because of financing, retail has no bearing as all the lenders go off of a percentage based on trade. The lenders use NADA or BLACK BOOK!

With OLD cars most cars are bought with cash, the cars generally are not the collateral!!

wmachine

They don't speak for themselves when you don't report them accurately. You're the one misrepresenting what is said. Stick to the facts and you won't have a problem.

oldcutlass

OK, peoples you have to start reporting the actual price of the sale to the State not the $1500 - $2500, thats what got these car values down!!!!

jaunty75

I'm a little confused here. Why should whether or not a car is financed have an effect on its value? Isn't my 2002 Dodge Dakota worth whatever it's worth regardless of whether or not the guy who buys it from me pays me in cash or goes to his bank to get a loan? Maybe the bank will tell him that they won't finance above a certain amount because they don't think it's worth the price we agreed to, or they want to make sure they can get back their money if the buyer defaults and they have to sell it at auction or something. In this case, they would come in with a low maximum-amount financed to protect themselves. If all the banks do this and all use the same numbers, and no one will finance my buyer, that's telling me something. I have to find a cash buyer, he's got to put up a down payment or a bigger one, or I've got to lower my price.

Given this, if I'm reading what you say correctly, the NADA prices are based on what cars are financed for. Since, as you say, most collector cars are not financed but are bought for cash, the NADA values for collector cars would be less accurate as their database (consisting of collector cars sold WITH financing) is tiny.