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I was talking to a guy who Drag Raced a W-31 in 1970, interesting stories. Curious as to the Best ETs for the various classes in 1968-1969-1970. So those of you who have run one back then or more current. Show us what you got.
It think it's all subjective. I think 13.9's with slicks and a good driver where a reality and some magazine test showed that. I know there was a 68 ram rod running 13.3's recently on street tires in ours stock. I'm sure the w 31 with typical super tuning ( still stock stuff) , 4.66 gears would probably scratch high 12's. I think the only rule every olds guy is willing to bend is run headers because the manifolds leave alot to be desired and really choke back the engine. Just my 2 cents. I wasn't around back then but I love the small block olds and have some old old articles from the era.
Is that stock eliminator. Because that plays a huge difference. They went max everything on stock specs and usually bent the rules on cam rules a little.
NHRA legal stock W-31 article. 12.50's in 1968 and 12.20's in 1970.
Thanks for that post. I love stuff like that.
When I was 12 maybe 13 I came to my Mom's house to do my paper route. I rode down the street. One of my brothers bought a 70 W-31 from a local dealer. That car warped me forever. White car. Blue stripes and interior. Old lady owned it. That car pulled rpm's forever. I was an Oldsmobile guy from that day forward.
Is that stock eliminator. Because that plays a huge difference. They went max everything on stock specs and usually bent the rules on cam rules a little.
Yes, NHRA Stock class and if you won your class, you would be in Stock Eliminator. What plays a huge difference in what ?
You had to use stock valve train, stock valve sizes, stock heads within Oldsmobile supplied CC limits, stock carburetion,stock intake manifold, stock connecting rods, stock configuration pistons (including dish or dome CC's) with maximum .030" overbore, pistons could be forged, stock valve springs or springs exceed open and closed stock pressures, stock stroke. Camshafts could not exceed factory lift and duration. No porting, polishing or grinding allowed on heads and intake.
They did not bend the rules on cams in division or national meets. What people did at "local tracks" is another thing entirely.
Oldster In stock eliminator you had rules to play by but..... Something as simple as offset welding the passenger side spindle would give you and edge. Having a cam ground to stock specs on a different lobe profile would give you and edge. Again it's subjective and not straight forward. Stock eliminator cars then and now have alot of science and testing behind them far beyond what a stock car or event pure stock would have . They would acid port heads. Re do valve jobs . Lifter preload would be changed by adding shims to the rocker arm pads. ....... Stock eliminator wasn't really stock and never will be. It's a science between what stock and interpretation of rules was
Last edited by coppercutlass; July 1st, 2021 at 10:09 PM.
As Smokey used to say: "If ya ain't cheatin', ya ain't tryin'". First time in the 12's with my 1967 W30; borrowed M&H Racemaster 7" tires, small tube Hooker headers, 4.33 gear, M21 trans, AirLift bags, electric fuel pump, and the motor had never been apart - not even the valve covers! Such fun we had!
I noticed the mention of the sound deadener being removed as an "option" if you ordered through the zone rep - I'm wondering if this is where the rumor that W cars came without it started...?
Oldster In stock eliminator you had rules to play by but..... Something as simple as offset welding the passenger side spindle would give you and edge. Having a cam ground to stock specs on a different lobe profile would give you and edge. Again it's subjective and not straight forward. Stock eliminator cars then and now have alot of science and testing behind them far beyond what a stock car or event pure stock would have . They would acid port heads. Re do valve jobs . Lifter preload would be changed by adding shims to the rocker arm pads. ....... Stock eliminator wasn't really stock and never will be. It's a science between what stock and interpretation of rules was
Yes, rules to play by. The rules were meant to conform to (published by the manufacturer) stock car.
Offset welding a spindle would be easily checked with a tape measure if suspected. Manufacturers also supplied car model weights and wheelbase specs.
Several of the "big name" racers and car manufacturers acid dipped fenders, hoods and other parts to reduce weight. Some manufacturers also made special parts from aluminum to reduce weight. Could people have used acid to open up ports in intake manifolds and heads ? Yes, but the same obstructions to flow would still be there.
What do you mean by "Re do valve jobs" ?
Cams that were ground to factory duration and lift with faster opening and closing rates was done. Lunati was one of the original innovators of that. Not everyone ran such a cam, but they were available to anyone. Now these cams with faster opening and closing rates is called "new technology".
Shims under the rocker arm stands to set valve lifter preload is nothing new. They were doing it over 50 years ago. Anyone can do it. Oldsmobile mentioned it in their W Machine Super Tuning information. They warned against more than .030" difference in shims between one side of the rocker arm stand to the other because it could break them.
Stock eliminator was stock and covered by manufacturers specifications. Because you say it wasn't stock, doesn't make any difference. NHRA and the car manufacturers agreed to what was stock.
I'd you wanna argue that that's fine but stock eliminator was far beyond from stock. There is power to be had in the valve job so usually the racers would of course blue print the engine usually run max size bore and loose up clearances to ideal specs. I'm sure tweed knows much more but unless you are talking pure stock then stock eliminator isn't really stock because everything is tailored to maximize the combo you can work with based off weight breaks and limitations
Check out the YouTube channel Cars and Zebras, that guy has lots of matchups from F.A.S.T. NMCA, and other racing organizations. The older videos have done pretty humorous comments and video clips added.
It never fails that some smart *** comments “no way those are stock!”. No one with a clue of the rules will argue that they are stock, they are a perfect example of optimizing what is factory equipment. Just like what people did with their new cars back in the day. Granted, racers today have a lot more science and test equipment to help.
I noticed the mention of the sound deadener being removed as an "option" if you ordered through the zone rep - I'm wondering if this is where the rumor that W cars came without it started...?
The way I understand it, the only sound deadener that was omitted was on the hood. While technically correct, it’s creative advertising.
As Smokey used to say: "If ya ain't cheatin', ya ain't tryin'". First time in the 12's with my 1967 W30; borrowed M&H Racemaster 7" tires, small tube Hooker headers, 4.33 gear, M21 trans, AirLift bags, electric fuel pump, and the motor had never been apart - not even the valve covers! Such fun we had!
origanal paint..it’s been clear coated. He destroyed the original W27 while it was still under warranty and GM replaced the whole rear with another one which is still in it .
it’s a legit super rare care. Canadian GM docs so no bs
Yes, rules to play by. The rules were meant to conform to (published by the manufacturer) stock car.
Offset welding a spindle would be easily checked with a tape measure if suspected. Manufacturers also supplied car model weights and wheelbase specs.
Several of the "big name" racers and car manufacturers acid dipped fenders, hoods and other parts to reduce weight. Some manufacturers also made special parts from aluminum to reduce weight. Could people have used acid to open up ports in intake manifolds and heads ? Yes, but the same obstructions to flow would still be there.
What do you mean by "Re do valve jobs" ?
Cams that were ground to factory duration and lift with faster opening and closing rates was done. Lunati was one of the original innovators of that. Not everyone ran such a cam, but they were available to anyone. Now these cams with faster opening and closing rates is called "new technology".
Shims under the rocker arm stands to set valve lifter preload is nothing new. They were doing it over 50 years ago. Anyone can do it. Oldsmobile mentioned it in their W Machine Super Tuning information. They warned against more than .030" difference in shims between one side of the rocker arm stand to the other because it could break them.
Stock eliminator was stock and covered by manufacturers specifications. Because you say it wasn't stock, doesn't make any difference. NHRA and the car manufacturers agreed to what was stock.
So what are you saying? You’re are all over the place.
if you weren’t using a cheater cam then you were at the bottom of the pack and going home early.
NHRA and other sanctioning bodies would list the engine spec limits. In most cases they were very generous and if you didn’t max your engine to those limits, then you were not serious .
here’s just a few old listed specs for the 68/69 W30
nominal compress 10.5, max with a clean chamber 11.28, with normal carbon build up 11.58
normal piston deck clearance is .023 to .025. NHRA allowed that to be .002
intake valve stock, 2.07 , limit allowed 2.077”
W31 those years were allowed a max comp ratio of 11.85
that’s just a few things allowed by the rules
Last edited by CANADIANOLDS; July 2nd, 2021 at 11:12 PM.
origanal paint..it’s been clear coated. He destroyed the original W27 while it was still under warranty and GM replaced the whole rear with another one which is still in it .
it’s a legit super rare care. Canadian GM docs so no bs
Pant...🤤
Pant...🤤
Pant...🤤
Do you how that car is geared? Sounds like maybe a 3.91 car.
Last edited by no1oldsfan; July 2nd, 2021 at 08:02 PM.
So what are you saying? You’re are all over the place.
if you weren’t using a cheater cam then you were at the bottom of the pack and going home early.
NHRA and other sanctioning bodies would list the engine spec limits. In most cases they were very generous and if you didn’t max your engine to those limits, then you were not serious .
here’s just a few old listed specs for the 68/69 W30
nominal compress 10.5, max with a clean chamber 11.28, with normal carbon build up 11.58
normal piston deck clearance is .023 to .025. NHRA allowed that to be .002
intake valve stick, 2.07 , limit allowed 2.077”
W31 those years were allowed a max comp ratio of 11.85
that’s just a few things allowed by the rules
I made no such claim that you were at the bottom of the pack and going home early if you didn't run a "cheater cam" (your description). I said they were available to anyone.
NHRA allowed a .030" overbore in stock classes.
Funny how threads go sideways. How many answered the original question? Ha ha.
To argue about racers running true stock cars from back on the day. You would be foolish to think they were all 100 percent stock. We all know one of the original 64 Goats sent to the magazines etc actually had a 421 not a 389. That is one of hundreds of examples. Enjoy V8 horsepower. Enjoy a time gone by.
Which that last comment brings up a good point. Muscle cars where optioned all over the place so what's the base line for the specific car in question. It's a hair subjective.
I made no such claim that you were at the bottom of the pack and going home early if you didn't run a "cheater cam" (your description). I said they were available to anyone.
NHRA allowed a .030" overbore in stock classes.
you said not everyone ran such a cam.
i said if you didn’t, you were going home early or not serious. Both are true
cheater cams in stockers are the #1 reason they run what they run. You can have every other trick in the book , but without that cheater cam and many hours of testing, you’ll probably be a full second or more over the index and won’t make the cut
Port CC’s can be what they say and the port can still be moved way off from where it was originally.
i said if you didn’t, you were going home early or not serious. Both are true
cheater cams in stockers are the #1 reason they run what they run. You can have every other trick in the book , but without that cheater cam and many hours of testing, you’ll probably be a full second or more over the index and won’t make the cut
Port CC’s can be what they say and the port can still be moved way off from where it was originally.
You are welcome to your opinion.
Port cc's ? I don't know of any port cc specifications. There are cc specifications for combustion chambers.
Really? Come on now. Quit this poop. Especially if you are old enough to know what drag racing was in the fifties and up. Smokey Yunick was the master. It is a term in NASCAR (Sorry to abbreviate youngsters. Go look it up.) If you aren't cheating. You ain't trying. The beautiful thing that people these days just don't get is back in the day the mechanic loved that car. Listened to it like a baby. Adjusted this. Heard that. Ran on all eight. Today... You can't hate on modern technology. How many cars did I own with four wheel drums?
Point is...
Everybody was cheating. Period.
Period.
I have owned a crap load of cars. Not trailer queen crap. I have this funny belief that high horsepower cars were built to see see that. I will NEVER ever get owning a bad *** high (or small block)cube anything that doesn't get to stretch it's legs. What's the point? I don't get the why. In the sixties seventies etc you bought a fast *** car to um.. I dunno know... Run it like it was built to do. I grew up in the sixties seventies and eighties. Muscle cars were everywhere. For nothing. Once I brought my 442 home... That torque. That horsepower that fools on the street didn't respect.. I paid for that car twenty times over on bets. V8 American cars history and horsepower rule!!! What a time.
yes, ports get cc’d if you are turn down and they have to be correct. They are listed.
Perhaps you can show me where Oldsmobile published that ?
I can email you the 23 page Super Tuning and blueprint specs that the Olds History Center has that can be traced back to Oldsmobile.
The good racers usually had their own tricks and usually where secretive about it. So it's safe to although the specs you are providing where used to some extent racers still went ahead and did what they felt was within rules.
You are welcome to your opinion.
Port cc's ? I don't know of any port cc specifications. There are cc specifications for combustion chambers.
here are the listed intake and exhaust port CC volumes per NHRA as of 2019. Olds head casting id's and port volume. i dont know where you get your info from but it sure isnt from an y racer or NHRA or other sanctioning body. port CC's have been around for many years. ive done a few stocker heads and this is the guide i use. and, i can move around the port as long as the CC's are what the rules say
so to be clear, these are the intake and ex port volume CC's, not combustion chamber CC's The 1970 W31 #6 head casting ID 859 has a listed max int port volume of 159cc and ex max of 130cc
Last edited by CANADIANOLDS; July 3rd, 2021 at 04:12 PM.
Perhaps you can show me where Oldsmobile published that ?
I can email you the 23 page Super Tuning and blueprint specs that the Olds History Center has that can be traced back to Oldsmobile.
Olds dont publish the CC volume of the ports, NHRA or one of the other organizations CC a stock head and that what you have to go by...i dont need some antique 23 page super tuning book that is 50 years out of date.
this is the complete rules and specs racers follow. piston part# allowed, con rod allowed, head chamber CC, intake and ex port max CC. carbs, and most other stuff https://promod.nhra.com/userfiles/fi...edProducts.pdf
Last edited by CANADIANOLDS; July 3rd, 2021 at 04:02 PM.
I was talking to a guy who Drag Raced a W-31 in 1970, interesting stories. Curious as to the Best ETs for the various classes in 1968-1969-1970. So those of you who have run one back then or more current. Show us what you got.
Here are some time slips from the early 70’s when my 70 W31 ran at US 30 Dragstrip.
Olds dont publish the CC volume of the ports, NHRA or one of the other organizations CC a stock head and that what you have to go by...i dont need some antique 23 page super tuning book that is 50 years out of date.
this is the complete rules and specs racers follow. piston part# allowed, con rod allowed, head chamber CC, intake and ex port max CC. carbs, and most other stuff https://promod.nhra.com/userfiles/fi...edProducts.pdf
You need to go back to post #1 and read what was originally the subject of this thread. The information that was available from Oldsmobile was in the NHRA technical specs book and supplied by Oldsmobile. This was also reflected in the 23 page W Machine Supertuning and blueprinting publication that was printed in the spring of 1970.
Go back and read the original post (#1) that was referencing time slips back then (1968-70). I posted an article about Rich Powers and team members 1970 W-31 from that time period. The rules in force back in those years (1968-70) were what I stated. Oldsmobile did not publish or list any port CC's simply because they could not be modified (no porting, polishing or grinding allowed). That would also mean that you could not relocate or change port volume or shape.
What NHRA allows today has no bearing on time slips posted and what was stock 50 years ago. Where NHRA came up with those CFM numbers, I have no idea. I was unable to open the link you posted.
If you could post a complete page of the NHRA specs in another thread that would be nice. I would love to read it.
July 1st, 2021, 11:02 AM
