Aceshigh

I'm curious to inquire about updating my 40 year old fuel lines to run NEW fuel lines up to the motor
for fuel injection. I know CutlassEFI is the Accel DFI guy here.

Any recommendations on what I should purchase ???
Debating between
1. Steel braided rubber lines with Russell AN connectors
Or
2. New OEM steel tube lines with flared ends and connectors.

For my fuel tank I was strongly considering a Tanks Inc modified fuel tank for an in tank pump assembly.
http://www.tanksinc.com/index.cfm?pt..._ID=6&art6.htm

My last EFI conversion I did an aftermarket Rick's Hot Rod tank with a Bosch 420 pump and braided
steel lines using all Russell quick connectors. I want hard lines this time, assuming it's better.

svnt442

I would agree with you on the hard lines. I would think that 3/8 would suffice for any amount of power that you want to run unless you're looking to go north of say 650-700 hp.

Check here for kits.
http://www.tubetechweb.com/

Aceshigh

Thanks for the info on the line size.
$450 to $550.....ouch....
I think I paid $175 total for my last build to use braided stainless lines and Russell fittings with the Corvette regulator

Just remembered this place....
http://www.inlinetube.com/

svnt442

Pre bent stuff can get ya hard.

MDchanic

Is copper a no-no?

I know I've seen it used for brake line (legally), so I would imagine it would also be okay for fuel. If so, then it would clearly be the easiest to bend and work with.

- Eric

svnt442

The issue with copper is it leaves deposits in the fuel and the can really mess up fuel injectors over time.
I would NEVER use it for brake lines for the same reason. Copper contaminating the brake fluid can erode seals very prematurely.

BlackGold

And copper is very prone to stress fractures due to vibration. I once had a tranny line leak due to the copper lines installed by a previous owner.

MDchanic

Yeah, it seemed odd to me that copper would be used and acceptable for brake lines, but I've had a few people tell me they did it, and been directed to sources for the materials.

I hadn't heard about the deposit problem - it's good to know in case I'm ever tempted.

- Eric

GTI_Guru

I've never seen copper used for any application that has liquid in the line. only for gases. propane, nat. gas, etc. I agree that it will eventually wear internally and send deposits through the system, and I'd never even attempt to use it for brake lines. It won't withstand the prolonged pressures like steel. Additionally, when you flare it for correct fitment at a junction or termination to a caliper/wheel cylinder/master cylinder or rubber line, you significantly weaken the structure of the metal if it's just a tapered flare. That's the reason they moved from single flares to double/bubble flares. It retains a higher structural integrity, as the metal is not flattened thinner and stressed out.

Not all of that matters on a fuel line installation, but there's a reason that nobody uses it in any factory applications. It's all steel (or now plastic/synthetic) lines. This is for safety and longevity.

Bottom line? Stick with steel lines if you want to build a bulletproof setup. They will be the easiest to build & bend yourself, and provide long term durability with no head scratching down the road trying to troubleshoot unusual problems.

-Jeff

gearheads78

Hard lines all the way. Unless it is teflon lined high pressure hose the alcohol content in our fuel today eats the rubber in braided lines. I know people that are having to replace it every year or two.

Aceshigh

Sounds like the best route. Thanks.
I definitely want bullet proof and longevity.

OEM steel lines lasted 40 years so far , I'm just not sure about what kind
of quality 2011 steel lines is compared to 1970's. We all know repop
fenders are junk these days. I'm debating Stainless.....

The ONLY thing that's questionable right now for steel lines is.....
I gotta figure out where the end of the line is in front and rear so I
know if I can just cut and flare for fittings OR if I should just buy
a 20 foot coil and make my own lines.

I gotta call them and ask....
I'd prefer stainless but if I gotta cut and reflare a fitting I've heard
it's a real bitch without a special tool.

Oh great......

My 78 Camaro had 100% all braided lines with the LS1 install.....LOL

GTI_Guru

If the current line runs through the frame, and you want to pull it and reinstall the new one easily, get some strong wire, and wrap it around the current line, and when the line pulls out, you'll leave the wire in the frame to pull the new one back through. Works really well on the boxed in areas, or where it's just hard to get into the C-channels. If it's relatively easy to get to, pull the old one out and use that as a template to make the new one. Even if it comes out in pieces, you'll still be able to make the new one close enough to work.

As far as a flaring tool, you need to figure out what style of flares you'll need first. There are different flares depending on the application. I suspect you'll need 2 styles. The old one near the tank, and a newer style for the late-model engine going in for your swap. Luckily, you can usually use the more exotic flare tools to do the older ones as well, but you can't do the newer style ones with the basic flare tool.

There's a nice selection of them on Ebay for less than $40 for the kit, and a tubing cutter can be purchased at any hardware store in the plumbing aisle. Spring for a metal tubing cutter, not the plastic cheapie version. you'll be much happier, and it'll only be a few bucks more.

Also, if you've never done flaring before, make sure to get a few extra feet of tubing, and practice your technique on some small scraps and fit those into place to make sure you have it right before you attempt to put the flares on the long piece. Also make sure to leave a few inches extra on each end, as I don't know how many times I botched a flare, had to recut the line and make a new flare, and I've done a lot of them over the years. it's not too difficult, but you do want to make sure you get it right for sealing purposes.

If you need any assistance in finding the correct tool, or want some more detailed descriptions, shoot me a PM. I'll be glad to give you a ring and verbally walk you through it. Not too difficult, but takes a little practice to get them correct.

Can't wait to see the finished product. I love the dark green/white color combo on your ride

-Jeff

Aceshigh

Thanks Jeff. Much obliged.

I have done flares before with my brake line updates. That's not an issue for me at all. I bought a flaring tool kit from the local auto parts store. I also have a tubing cutter and bending tool from Harbor Freight.

The only area I need to understand is how I'm going to connect everything to the new Corvette fuel regulator , basically what fittings I'm going to utilize. I don't know much about options outside of the Russell AN quick connects for braided steel rubber lines.

The only real area I need to decide on is what the best connectors are to connect to this Corvette fuel regulator with a feed and return no the tank side of it. Are compression fittings a one time use or can I use them, disconnect them multiples times, and reconnect without issues ??

GTI_Guru

Compression fittings are supposed to be a one time use, however, I have used them over again with no issues on my own vehicles. I'd not want to do that on a brake line on someone else's car. With fuel lines, as long as there's no leaking, I would reuse them myself as long as they seal correctly.

Also, the parts you showed in the regulator picture don't show me any type of typical compression fitting that I have ever used before. My brain's going to the brass ones that are mostly used in plumbing applications. You may be referring to something different than an actual compression fitting if those are the pieces you need to use.

Additionally, you mentioned using a newer style pump in the tank. Would that require a different fitting back there to make that work as well? With the higher pressures involved in the fuel injection system, I'd gather you'll need to replace every part of the fuel feed line from the pump to the new regulator. Sounds like you did this in another car as well, so you probably have it reasonably figured out from that build. I'm tagging along in this thread hoping to learn a few more things on how a resto-mod is done correctly!

**EDIT**
I see now which fittings you were referring to. I believe those can be reused multiple times from the looks of them, however, I have not used that specific style before, but I couldn't believe that you'd have to replace those fittings each time one was disconnected. That would be expensive and knowing how many times I've had to take apart things like that in the past, that just doesn't make sense that they would be a throw-away part.

-Jeff

dave1978

1985-1988 Monte Carlos came with 4.3 with fuel injection.The tank and fuel sender may work on your car. I know 1996 and older GM pumps should fit that style sender with little too no modification.1996 Lumina is good for 60 psi cranking pressure and about 50 psi while running.Use a pump like that put an adjustable regulator set the pressure in the system as needed. Just an idea that came too mind.Good steel lines should be fine with high pressure fuel line hose needed in spots that need to flex.

Aceshigh

Yes, it does fit differently.

Here's my Camaro's updated setup with a Rick's hot rod shop installed Bosch 420 in tank pump. It was welded in, and those are 90" Russell AN-6 fittings. One is feed, one is return to the Corvette fuel regulator.



I was debating doing this 100% steel this time, but still not sure if I will do regulator to tank all steel or flexible lines just yet. Regulator to the front will be all steel. Another Chevy member just showed me this place that sells some new style fuel lines that far exceeds DOT standards, and you can bend it by hand.

http://brakequip.com/tubes.html

Video here....
http://brakequip.com/tools_video_gallery.html

Aceshigh

Tank looks a bit different.
Monte gas tank. Much taller top section.



Oldsmobile gas tank

bammax

For the tank you could go with one from a '96 or earlier b-body. They are the same basic shape as your stock one and have the provision for the rear filler neck. The mid 90's ones are plastic which is great for ethanol gas and for those in the rust belt. There's a non-stock fuel pump that guys use when they need increased gph and I think it's from welbro.

For the lines you can run stainless which is expensive but works great, or regular steel if you're not afraid of some rusting over time, (the coatings put on them nowadays suck) or you could go with aluminum tubing. Either choice will work and it all comes down to budget and needs.

You need to do a standard style flare on the tubing, and then use the male/male adaptor which will then connect the specialty fittings that you pictured. The other option is to get the quick connect add on fittings from your local parts store and those will be designed for flaring onto hard lines. Basically what you're looking at on the regulator is the quick connect fitting design. If you run the b-body sending unit then just get the fuel lines too. They're plastic and have the quick connect fitting already on them. Either way works.

Lastly, you need to run some sort of flexible line from the tank to the frame rail. The tank isn't solid in the car. It actually hangs in the straps and moves a bit. If you try to run solid lines right to the sending unit, at best it'll be a major pain to install and remove the tank, at worst the lines will snap from the movement of the tank as it shifts around.

As for size I'd go with 3/8" at the most. 1/2" is for those who are putting down huge numbers. Most stock systems are closer to 5/16" or so (many are metric now so I have no clue the exact size in fractions )

Aceshigh

Lots of good info.

Are you 100% sure these B-body EFI tanks will work in a 1970 A-body??
I am really leary of buying a tank ,and finding out the hard way that
the filler tube or something else doesn't fit , or I gotta cut a hole for
a bulge in the trunk.

I'd much rather get a new tank and just add in my own new fuel pump.
Just trying to make sure the tank I'm looking at has a provision for EFI.
I think 90's is safe to say it was all EFI tanks.

1990 Caprice tank looks like it has a hump in it that will require trunk mods to fit.

67 Cutlass Freak

Have you considered running plastic lines? Many new cars come with them. A kit is available with a large assortment of ends. You could also do bulk 3/8" steel that they sell- coated in 25' rolls. I have a special pneumatic flare tool that was very expensive that makes the ends for GM style with the O-ring or even the push in lock type with a rib like you showed. The plastic fuel line kit also will allow you to adapt to steel ends. The plastic line is relatively cheap and will handle the pressure required for EFI.

Aceshigh

There's just something about plastic fuel lines possibly cracking, high pressure fuel, etc

That combination doesn't make me feel safe I guess.
I'd rather stick with metal lines. Aluminum, steel, or stainless.

garys 68

I used a combination of S/S braided and aluminum hard line on my last 2 projects. As in the comments above, others have had problems with the rubber inner on S/S braided and ethanol in fuel. Russel makes GM quick disconnect to JIC fittings for the vette regulator fitting.
DSCN0335.jpg
Honestly, I would use the OEM plastic fittings and nylon hose if I were going to do it again. It's cheaper and no worries about ethanol issues.
If you go with hard line be sure you research compression, JIC, SAE fittings, and single vs double flair, seamless vs non seamless hard line.
For the tank, I used a plastic 95 caprice tank, it fits! A walbro pump and 02 vette filter/trgulator will work with it. The neck from your old tank can be spliced on. You can either use spacers (rubber blocks for spings) or cut a section of your trunk to get the outlet to fit.
Oh yeah, if you're going to make flared lines, buy one of these universal kits.
http://www.mastercool.com/pages/flaring_tools.html
I have $200 in JIC and SAE flare kits and you can get the hydraulic that makes those and more for $300 on ebay.

Aceshigh

Gary,

That picture is pretty confusing.
I have NO IDEA what is what on your setup there.

Behind the Vette regulator it looks like you have 4 nipples coming off......the tank ??
1st goes to a white fuel filter, with......an open end showing.
2nd and 4th loop into a T-junction going ....where >?
3rd is plugged off.

Does the 2nd and 4th loop around out of sight and back into the Vette regulator ??
Very confusing......
Do you have any pictures of the 95 tank by itself and afterwards mounted to the car so I can see how it fits??

Also what do you mean , "splicing" my old tank neck on ??

garys 68

Plastic caprice tank. No filler neck. Chop off the old one, splice it on with a piece of fuel filler hose.
DSCN0311.jpg
Caprice pump/sender. Replace MFI fuel prmp with walbro intank. Racetronix makes a kit. 0-90 ohm sender works with your stock gauge.
DSCN0319.jpg
Tank/pump installed with trunk cut out. Fittings:
outlet, 3/8 quick fuel quick disconnect to -6 AN (russel)
return, 5/16 qick disconnect to 5/16 barb (russel)
vent 3/8, no fitting needed
DSCN0320.jpg
My 72 has the vapor tank that's supposed to be connected to the charcoal canister. That's where the vent line is connected to in the earlier pic (unclamped hoses). Ignore that stuff.
The tank outlet: quick disconnect to AN, -6 AN female, braided line, -6 female, quick discconect to AN, regulator (pictured)
Tank return; quick disconnect to barb, 5/16 fuel hose, quick disconnect to barb, regulator.
regulator outlet is a dorman 3/8 quick disconnect hard line. The other end is JIC flared and joined to 3/8" aluminum hard line.
You can see the regulator outlet better in this pic.
DSCN0336.jpg

Aceshigh

Thanks for the pics and clarification Gary. So you cut your filler neck off the metal tank,
and stuck it on the new plastic tank with some radiator rubber hose and some hose clamps ??

You also ended up having to cut a square access panel in your trunk for the in tank pump setup to fit.
I wonder how this tank looks from behind the car if it fits without a bulge hanging.

Real quick, this "Barb" fitting term is new to me , so I wanted to make sure
I got this correct.

The left side is the barb end and it's for sliding a fuel hose over with some kind of clamp ??

garys 68

Yep, chopped off the old filler neck, or you can but a filler neck on ebay. You need to use fuel fill hose and a couple clamps.
I can shoot a pic of the tank tomorrow, it's not noticable. You dont need to cut the trunk. A couple rubber block spacers on the front of the tank will give you inlet/outlet clearance.
And that is a barbed fitting.
A source for OEM fittings and nylon line.
http://www.midwayautosupply.com/m-11...aspx?pagenum=3

GTI_Guru

Man, Gary's got all the right solutions there, and it looks clean to boot!

Just a quick note, do NOT use rad hose to fab a coupler to the fill tube. Fuel will destroy that in very short order. you'll have to use something that will be impervious to the fuel. I know I have seen plenty of couplers like that on fill necks, so a trip to the wrecking yard should find you a correct piece to make that work. Just poke around a few cars to find one that has a similar setup from the factory for the filler tube.

I'm going to be up against a tank swap myself sometime soon as well. My 90 Jetta with the VR6 swap is still running on the old fuel pump system for the 4-cyl mechanical injection setup. It runs, but at high RPM, it starves for fuel. Thankfully, I can swap in whole new tank with internal high-pressure/volume pump setup from a golf/jetta III with almost no fab work and use that system in place of the original tank with the external pump. Those newer plastic tanks are plentiful as well seeing as how they don't rust out, they are alwas available in yards and fairly cheap too, since they never wear out the tank itself. I've seen PILES of them in yards from where they were pulled out prior to crushing the vehicle. If you want to go that route, you should be able to find a replacement tank on the cheap with little effort if for no other reason than to fab it in there and see how it looks on your application.

-Jeff

bammax

3 things to add

1) The b-body tank is flush on top so no need to worry about that. The biggest concern would be depth as it may sit a little lower and would need new straps.

2) On the plastic 91-96 tanks the filler neck portion is only a stub about 6" long. It's designed to have fuel hose run from the stub to the filler portion which is bolted to the body behind the plate. In your application the boltod on protion may work or you may need to drill some new holes to line up the bolts. No way to know for sure without trying.

The pre 91 tanks are steel and have the full length filler neck similar to your stock tank. It'll be shaped the same as the plastic tank and should accept the same sending unit.

3) Plastic fuel lines were stock on the 91-96 cars and already have the quick connect fittings. So don't be afraid of using them since they're designed to last a lifetime under extreme use and with fuel injection. Your vette regulator uses quick connect fittings because it was probably using the plastic lines to begin with.

By the way, if you do want to try a plastic tank than just get one at a junkyard. It should run you $50 or less. The 91-96 Roadmaster, Caprice, Impala sedans all used the same tank. The Fleetwood may have too. Just avoid the wagon tanks because they're a different style

507OLDS

When I did my EFI conversion,I already had braided lines running the length of the car.I removed the sumped tank & pump from the rear,and had Rick's Hot Rods build me a tank & installed an Aeromotive internal pump.It is placed inside a box or cavity,and is the last place to run out of fuel.It has -10 supply,with -6 return.I mounted a pressure regulator in the engine compatment.I have -10 running from the regulator to a Y-block,which splits to each rail.The tank is not a cheap date,but at the time,they were just inroducing their "stealth" tanks,and were making one for the Air Ride Suspension Chevelle,so they pretty much duplicated everything.I know that same tank I have now is a bunch more now,but it's sweet.

Aceshigh

Gary's 68 was kind enough to manage a photo for me showing the bottom of the plastic '95 Impala tank in his 72 442.

Thanks ALOT Gary. This is what I wanted to see, and it's perfect
I'm calling around for a tank this week. I just need to know if I don't cut a hole in the trunk
for pump clearance, if this will fit with the stock straps or if I need bigger straps.

Garys68.jpg

dhoff

Why not just buy the Spectra-premium tank that is already set up for a gm fuel pump Part #GM34RFI ?

Aceshigh

Because it's $579 through Autozone or around $350 from Rock Auto.
Plus the in tank included pump would be replaced, so it's not a viable option.

I considered it, but this is a much much cheaper solution.
I'm not into bling bling show cars. I just want functional that looks good.

garys 68

Caprice tank with pump/sender at local yard $90. I could have got one cheaper but didnt want to drive an hour. The tank has a built in sump. btw, that $90 tank included about 6 gallons of gas that's running my lawn mower and weed wacker all summer...
Racetronix upgrade fuel pump $125. The original MPI pump is lower pressure . You can buy an intank walbro 225 without the correct wiring for under $90 though. Avoid the cheap ebay chinese pumps!
2 1 X 1/8" straps from Lowes $10. The caprice straps are supposed to work too, but I forgot to ask the yard for them...doh.
A piecs of fuel filler hose $10, Oreileys. You can see in the pic, they cut mine off really short at the yard.
A couple rubber coils spring spacer blocks from Autozone will drop the front edge of the tank about 1 1/2" so you dont need to cut the trunk.
But here's my trunk with the boxed in area.
The only other mod was the frame back there. The lower horizontal part of the frame narrows about 1/4" at the back of the tank. First time I spent 30 minutes jockying the tank into place. Second fitting, I trimmed the edge of the frame back and it fit strait up. It's only about a 4" section that needs to be trimmed.
DSCN0321.jpg

507OLDS

A 300.00 tank is better than a $1300.00 tank.
If that Caprice tank is any bulier or wider near the tailpipes,my 3" tails would not clear.They are sucked in some to clear my tires.
I also do not want to cut a hole in my trunk.Otherwise & would have just done a fuel cell.depending on the height of the hump,maybe you could fab some spacers to drop the tank down,and let everything clear under the trunk pan.Use some good thick straps.

Aceshigh

What would you guys recommend using as straps ??'
Gary said he went to Home Depot IIRC and got 1" predrilled steel.

I'm thinking he's referring to this.
http://www.homedepot.com/buy/buildin...ton-67852.html

True.

I found 5 of these plastic style tanks at a local salvage yard by me via www.car-part.com
All 5 of them are just $50 so I'm going to check em out today.

That's $300 saved for the rest of the fuel system is the way I look at it.

garys 68

The rolls of predrilled straps are pretty flimsy and thin. Get th 1/8" flat bar. It's thicker and wider than the original.
Better yet, get the straps off the caprice.
I've heard the pump can in 95-96 are easier to swap for a walbro. Not sure on the difference. Make sure the entire pump and wiring is included.

507OLDS

The predrilled straps can break.I have seen it.Get some nice stainless strips,if the Caprice straps don't work.Hold the tank in place with some jacks,and take measurements for the straps.

bammax

The corners of the tank have narrowed sections where the original exhaust was routed. Remember these tanks were used in cars with dual exhaust and narrowed 8.5" rears.

The difference in sending units was between the 91-93 cars and the 94-96 cars. The fuel lines were a slightly different size between the years with the earlier ones being slightly larger. Not enough to make it more desirable, but something worth noting. Any one will work fine for what you're doing and the vetter regulator will probably prefer the later one.

The intank walbro pump mentioned above iswhat the b-body guys use when they start running strokers and turbos and such. It's plenty of pump for any small block setup.

Here's what you need to know; the intank pump wiring is crap. When you swap in the new pump you'll need to also get the wiring harness (many pumps come with the harness). The original wiring will most likely be fried which means the pump will also be shot. They wired the pump with a really small guage of wire and the only way to do it right is to swap in a new harness with a higher guage wire. Also never let the tank run below a quarter. Every time the tank dips below a quarter you're going to be overheating the pump and causing it to burn out and the wiring to melt.

It's a pretty common thing to those who have these cars, but it's almost like a bit of info that owners are afraid to admit to outsiders since it makes the cars look bad. Deffinetely swap the in tank harness before you do the install. There wont be a fire or anything, but the pump will die a quiet and annoyingly intermitent death with the bad wiring.

garys 68

I've heard the same thing about the intank harness.
I picked up the pump and new intank harness here.
http://www.racetronix.com/RX-BLT1-FPKG.html

Aceshigh

I picked up my bare 95 Impala SS tank today for $50 ...woot.

The fuel sender is not cheap for it.....$118 on Rock Auto and $179 everywhere else.
So that kit was $200 for:
1> $120 Fuel pump
2> $50 Fuel pump external harness
3> $30 Bulkhead connector
What is this bulkhead connector part for anyways ??

That's roughly $400 just into the new tank setup. Gotta figure out the straps.
I'm going to Home Depot to get creative.