yeahbuddy

I have a few questions that have been on my mind since I bought my car. I purchased a 4 door 68 Cutlass Supreme two years ago. When I got it, I didn't know much about classic cars but I have learned tons over the last two years. The one thing I am still not quite sure about is the true meaning of "original" when it comes to cars and how much is tolerable. My Cutlass seemed to be original when I got it considering I found the build sheet under the carpet...then I discovered that the car used to be a light blue with a light blue interior. It is now maroon with a (cheap) black interior spray job. The water cooler container was not original, the battery was not original either, and the regulator was not original...and I dont think the radiator was either?

Now, since then, I have done quite a few things to the car. Maybe for the better performance wise but maybe for the worse as far as originality goes. I've changed the wheels from the hub style to 15" ralleys, put an Edelbrock carb and intake, replaced the alternator with a Oreily store bought 65a op, put a Red Top Optima battery, put an aluminum radiator, changed the dist cap, rotor to Mallory and installed a Pertronix ignitor. I've also drilled 2 holes under the dash to mount my triple gauge and am very tempted to drill about 4 more to mount my underdash stereo housing. Did I completely kill the "originality" of the car? I have all the old parts (except the alternator) that I pulled in a storage unit. So in reality everything can be put back to the way it was...except the holes. Im asking this because I cant get myself to decide if I want to drill 2 more holes under the metal plate on the dash and 2 holes on the plastic vent close to the firewall to hold my stereo. I dont know if this is taboo? Im young and still learning. I dont want to do something stupid here.

If you were to find a rebuilt original part...and replace it with the part that came on your car...if it is not number stamped...is that considered original?

jensenracing77

this has some to do with opinion. my opinion is, if it is a #3 or worse condition Cutlass, Vista, 88, or 98 then original don't much matter. if it is one of the above cars and a #2 or better condition with low miles then i would consider it a survivor and then original as more important. if you have a 442 or something more collectible and in restorable or better condition then original is more important. other than that it is a matter of what you feel about it and what you want to do with your car. for judging purposes i think there are rules that you would have to go by and the parts that are being replaced would need to be the same thing that came off the car or the correct number on the parts that have numbers.

Allan R

To some people, 'original' means exactly that - exactly how the car came off the line. No changes allowed; period. Well good for them, but that's not how it works in the real world. Most people don't buy a car to keep it original or park it where they can watch it rot for 40 years without driving it.

Let's face it though. There are things that need to be replaced when they wear out. That's called maintenance. If you are concerned about reliability and drivability there's no harm in putting in aftermarket 'non stock' parts to meet your needs.

If you're more concerned that it passes a judging contest? Stick with OEM parts. Notice that I didn't say 'original'. It doesn't sound to me like your ride is going to be inspected to see whether every date code on every part is correct. eg: when you replace the alt. If you want the stock look? Rebuild your AC Delco alt or buy a replacement AC Delco. Battery? really who cares unless you are a concours nut? SS wheels? Love 'em. They were an option for your car anyway.

The way I look at it (for my car anyway) is 'original' means that if you could buy that part for your car from GM - even as a replacement maintenance part - you're keeping it original.

Who's kidding who? Even if you don't use your car a lot, parts fail (relays, electrical, lights etc) I can guarantee that GM expected them to. That's why they build inventories of extra parts. IMO Using OEM replacements is 'maintaining as original'.

66luvr

I want to apologize to anyone who may take offense to this post, please understand this is how I feel, an opinion.
A survivor needs to be a car that has not been repainted all over, has not had all the interior replaced, has not had any of the drivetrain replaced with some other parts even if it is the same as the original. A survivor says to me "It has not been used enough to wear it down to the point it needed to be replaced" "It has survived the amount of use without wearing it away" If it doesn't meet these points for me it is not a survivor, can still be nice, beautiful, fast, desirable, expensive, restored, hot rodded, and a lot of other things/terms/descriptions, but not a survivor. Of course some things had to be replaced, batteries, brakes, plugs, points, exhaust. Some things just die from age instead of use or neglect.
Some other discussion which indicates there are other people who agree with me,
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144255
http://www.survivorcollectorcar.com/

And to me "Original" means; As it was when it left the factory.
That does not mean it has not been maintained as necessary. It just means it has the original drivetrain it had when it left the factory. Has the original colors, patterns, wheels, hubcaps, radio, hood and body parts as it left the factory (meaning they may have been replaced or repaired but not altered; as scoops, spoilers, bigger, smaller parts) If it doesn't look as it did when it was built it is not original, it is customized/altered/etc. There are terms to describe everything. Use your dictionary to find what words mean before you use them to describe your car. For original mine says "first, new, a thing from which copies are made", among other things. If the color has been changed or things altered from how it was when built it is not going to be original.

Again, that's how I feel. I do make a big difference in Survivor and Original. Mainly a survivor didn't need to be "fixed" to the extent some original cars did.

The main thing is having fun and being honest about your cars. The blue 66 is not a survivor and it is not original, but is, to me, great, and I am proud of it and proud to have had fun changing it.

oldcutlass

My opinion, and please don't get me wrong, with your car who cares!!!! It will always be a run of the mill 4 door Cutlass. It will never ever be worth anything other than what someone will write a small check for. I'm not trying to burst your bubble!

Do to it whatever makes YOU happy! Do not under any circumstances worry about originality.

Hope this helps!

Allan R

Why should anyone be offended because you offered your opinion? Don't worry' 'bout it. My rant was an opinion too. I think we see a lot of the same issues on the mtce side and the concept of original. My thoughts do however differ slightly in some areas of presentation (see above), but that's me.

I would NEVER represent my car as factory original because it isn't anymore. Throughout the mtce cycle, I've replaced suspension, hoses, vacuum lines, batteries, relays, fenders, quarters, door skin, glass etc that were on the car when it came from the factory. I have also painted it a 'non Olds' silver that I just happen to like better than code 14. I haven't hurt the car by doing this, just increased it's lifespan by a significant margin. It LOOKS like it could be factory fresh, but it's not.

I've added sport mirrors, rallye wheels, rear defogger, etc that were not on the car. I plan to install PW, PDL, Cruise, P trunk, tilt, 8 track +AM/FM stereo etc which were correct for that model year. Many of the parts I'm planning to install are NOS or excellent OEM. Not trying to fool anyone. I'm very clear about what it came with and what it didn't. It will never be a concours car, nor is it intended to be daily driver. When I take my car to shows, I don't stand around and lecture about it, but I'm not shy about talking about it or my plans either. I do however answer any questions honestly, and accept others comments with an open mind. I do love talking with people who are knowledgable about the car and are willing to suggest things that I don't know or would think of.

I think the gist of this whole thing comes down to pride of ownership AND proper representation of what you have.

RAMBOW

What constitues original or survivor status has been discussed in depth many times... Weather the car remains original or survivor doesn't matter, many folks have dedicated their part of the hobby to returning cars to original or better than original. its an interesting group... not what floats my boat, but i can appreciate the work they do, and i enjoy looking at the results of their work.

Now, The VALUE of that originality or survivor status, depends 100% on the car in question.

If the car in question is a documented one of whatever (50 something?) 66 442 W-30 car , then originaly and survivor status will add significantly to its value.

Same thing if its got some other facet to it, like a famous previous owner, or it was in a movie or event... These things cry out for preservation or restoration to their recognizeable form. (examples might be the General Lee #1, or the Two Lane Blacktop Cars)

However, if the car in question is gradma's 4 door 68 cutlass supreme, then its not really worth any more than any of the other thousands of 68 cutlass supreme 4 doors out there.

I'm sorry to say, RARENESS & DESIREABILITY are two very different things.

So all that being said... If originality is what turns your crank- then make the car as original as you want. Don't let the value thing stop you.
Same goes if you want to put 23" rims & hydraulics on it- Or build a LS motor & 6spd overdrive protouring car out of it.

Bottom line, Its your car and you won't enjoy anything if you are trying to build it to please someone elses idea of a cool car. So build it for what YOU will enjoy.

Allan R

Amen brother. BTW PM coming your way re your website - very nice work from what I saw.

ziff396

Allen:
Mine is not original either. Yours is a great looking car. Was or is it a Cutlass? Not a 442 W30? I probably just missed the info. Doesn't matter to me, just curious. I might still go that direction someday.

yeahbuddy

Dont get me wrong guys. Im not passionate about keeping everything perfect but going through the forum I see how picky some people are about keeping their car to original specs. So when it comes to making permanent unfactory holes under my dash...I just didnt know if it was a wise idea.

It is MY car and I do what I want to it. That I understand. I know it is not worth much being a 4 door...but they only made 500 4 door Holiday Sedans in 1968. Thats the 4 door that came without the post.

Anyway, I appreciate all of your feedback. I know its a touchy subject for some.

cutlassback.jpg

chrisneu68olds

To each his/her own.

My project (when I get the car) is going to be what I would have wanted when it was available brand new. Meaning that, I intend to take the option sheet and 'tick off' what I would have wanted if I were to go into an Olds dealership in late '66 early '67. For instance if the car has manual windows, I will put in power windows and they will look/be factory. Other options like disk brakes, A/C, etc. will likely be added as well.

I am not a purist for sure, but I would like it to look as stock as possible. The only concession I am considering is 4-wheel disc only for a improved braking and safety and I am probably going to hide the modern touches (better stereo, etc.) so that it is not out there in your face.

That's just my $0.02 opinion, and that is about what it is worth.

chrisneu68olds

OH, and that is one darned good looking 4-door!

Allan R

Thx. It is a Cutlass S. You're talking about the sigpic? That image is of a car I found couple of years ago on the web. I'm trying hard to duplicate that look - and am about 90% there. If you want to see what mine actually looks like, take a look at my album on this site.

oldzy

Whitewalls n hub caps w/ single exhaust ownz all.

yeahbuddy

Has ralley wheels now

rallywheels-1.jpg

droptopron

To me the level of originality goes in tandem with the pedigree of the car. The less the pedigree the less you will adversely effect the value by changing things. For example, putting radial tires, aftermarket wheels, & an electronic ignition conversion on a '70 W30 convertible would make it worth less where as on a car like yours or mine it would not adverselt effect the value.

aliensatemybuick

X2!

As for what it means to be "original", it means so many things to so many people as to be irrelevant. Wear items (arguably includes like starters, calipers, water pumps, etc) often ended up being replaced with non-original parts (these COULD be rebuilt, but often people didn't get their original parts back, and gave them up as "cores". Some would say that to be original, a car must have retained all those original parts. Some would go so far to find date-matched parts to make it "seem" as though they were original, even though they are not. Their car, their choice.

Worst to me is when people care more about the numbers than functionality (witness "correct" stamped distributors for rare cars that do not really have the proper advance curves for the application but rather just LOOK the part). Again, if someone buys one for their car, its their choice.

But its still all bullsh*t if you ask me!

67442nut

Good lookin' 4-door.
I have to agree with old Cutlass.
Very few 4-door cars are primo collector cars unless thry're super low mileage and/or super original.
As far as I'm concerned the amount of expense and effort put into even a 4-4-2 should be kept within reason,
depending on the car.
Maintaining originality is nice if that's what YOU want, but, the expense and stress
of maintaining originality can often take the fun out of an enthusiast car.
Enjoy your car. Do what makes YOU happy, not what some puritan thinks you should do.

Troys Toy 70

I aggree with everyone else. It is what you want it to be. There comes a point where everyone makes a decision on which route they want to take, and to what level. To me, original, survivor, and show car(s) are all cars I love to see and make over, but could never enjoy. I would worry about them too much. Make it yours and you will be happy, if you are trying to please someone else, you never will be.

oldsca

Love your 4 door. My first Olds was a `72 Cutlass 4 door. Would love to find another one some day.

Make your car what will make you happy and want to drive it and be proud of it. My car gets little respect at shows because it is only 25 years old. Doesn't bother me because me and my 2 boys love the car and have so much fun driving it. So much of the car hobby is meeting all the great people involved in it.

Do what makes you happy - not others happy

Jamesbo

IMHO

A frame off restored car is a PITA to keep at that level.

I enjoy my drop top 1000 X more.

But the Vista Curiser get's alot of " My mom used to take me to baseball practice in one of those."