70cutty

That's exactly it. I love big cars too, I tried restoring a 67 Lincoln Cont. Convertible and realized that it would be a lot cheaper to buy a restored one. I love working on cars and customizing them the way I want them to be, but when it comes to big cars lack of aftermarket or original parts I get discouraged.

OldSoldier

My boys are 2 and 3. When I pick them up from day care they always squeal with delight when I have to punch it a bit (in the G8). They call my Cutlass "daddy's hot rod" even though it is currently quite terrible and I take them to the local shows and Good Guys twice a year. They love every minute of it. My youngest can't sit still for 3 seconds normally but will sit in a jog stroller for four hours looking at bright colored hot rods. Hopefully I can maintain their interest over the coming years and pass the torch the way my father and brother have ingited the fire in me.

sicky olds

Oh come now... Some of us kids are still into the hobby, so how dare you say that we arent interested... I am OFFENDED!!!!!!

J/K, but seriously you can still find cheap projects that are running if you look hard enough. The problem is, the wrench turning and the work that you have to put into it is where it turns the younger generation away. The times are turning into a digital age and its making people uber lazy compared to back in the day.

MDchanic

No kidding.

I work up more of a sweat using the bullwhip to get him to cut the grass than I would cutting it myself.

- Eric

sicky olds

The other thing that i have noticed when really getting into the community for cars is alot of people tear people apart because their car is not how they would have done it. And yes i am talking about the purists calling names to people who put differant drive trains in there car for whatever reason. It can be disheartening to hear comments and such about their hard work.

oldcutlass

We have a few kids here in Mayberry that are trying to play with cars. Our group is very accepting of the younger guys and their tastes. One kid slammed and bagged a 60's truck, he worked really hard on it and actually won an award and some truck magazine shoots at Goodguys last year. Some others are trying to do some later model 80's Mustangs.


There have always been Purists and people tunnel visioned in a particular make or model. I'm proud to say this site has come along way in accepting change and non originally equipped power plants. I remember them days and don't want to go back. It also seems we have been getting quite few younger folks and I for one are happy to see it. Sometimes there is a bit of a language barrier and some conflicts due to misunderstandings, but all in all they are contributing to our hobby.

Seff

You can try to affect your kids with your own hobbies, but it'll never be THEIR hobbies, it'll be their father's hobbies.

A lot of the life experiences and developed appreciations of certain things that you guys've gained over the years are things that your kids would do well to heed - but they won't, until they face a situation where they're unsure what to do. That's where they look at their role models and finally learn from your experiences. Until then, they'll be too lazy to do the grass, too involved with their computer to go out and spend time with girls, and too preoccupied to appreciate the feeling of satisfaction from finishing a project.

The kids won't wrench on cars until they feel a need or an urge. All of them have to break free from under their father's wing to become their own man, and that involves doing their "own thing". Once they've manifested themselves as individuals instead of someone's kid, they'll start doing what they enjoy - which might quite possibly be wrenching on cars. It's still very popular amongst young people, even if half of them tune and style modern cars instead.

Example: My father never worked on cars, to the point that my mother found it odd after having grown up with my grandpa and uncle who did all their car work themselves (70s US versus 90s Denmark, mind you). When I decided that I wanted to try my hand at fixing up a 70s American car ("how hard can it be?", said the oblivious 20 year old), he offered all the advice he could, which wasn't much. He helped when I asked him, but otherwise let me do my thing. It's only after I've completed my car that he's begun working on his own cars, amusingly enough.

I hope that made sense, it's what I've seen from the kid's perspective. Only 23, after all.

Allan R

Tom, those are very accurate statements and very true. Even though I tend to want my car to be as close to pure as Olds could have made it, I know it's not going to happen. And truth be told, I'm not really that much of a purist. I really appreciate the effort and work that a purist puts into a purists work and to some extent their point of view. But as you stated it's not everyone's vision to keep their car all original; and half the fun is enjoying the ride. eg: I'm seriously looking at putting a 200 4R in my 72 simply because I want to use it on the highway with its new 3.42 gears. Given the increasing cost of fuel, and my desire to drive it more before I croak I think that's a reasonable thing for my wants and needs. I'll keep the original TH for anyone who buys the car down the road. LOL chances are they probably wouldn't know the difference, but I like to stay honest.

What I also find it ironic is some Olds folks claim that ANY other engine except Olds should NEVER be in an Oldsmobile, yet they applaud folks who put Olds engines in Chevy, Pontiac, Buick, Ford..... To me it just seems a little hypocritic. I'm sure the similar arguments and debates go on with the Ford, Mopar and other GM brand sites.

oldcutlass

Sorry Tom, you haven't been a kid for sometime.

MDchanic

Oh I don't know, Seff.

My father always liked playing with cars (as well as wood- and metal-working), and I remember helping him swap motors in Volkswagens and Porsches when I was 5, and helping him strip a rollover in a freezing cold garage when I was 7. When I was a bit older, I helped him with restorations of a couple of forties cars.
He showed me how to use tools, and the best ways to remove rusty fasteners and paint panels.
I specialized in wiring and remembering obscure part numbers at swap meets (pre-internet, Baby).
He tells me to slow down and not rush, I tell him to stop thinking about it and Git'r dun.
Half a century in, we still help each other with our cars and restorations, and don't snap at each other nearly as often as you'd think.

So... Never say never.

- Eric

Seff

Well, consider me enlightened.

Jakespeed63

No offense Craig, but if he paints this flat black, I will hop on a plane and go slap him upside the head. That whole trend is way outdated. My Traditional and Custom crowd, is more into the whole Bellflower look. Mild custom, with a flaked roof and paint job that does justice to this factory custom. Low and Slow!!

As an owner of 2 1964 Oldsmobile full size (98 Sports Cpe and Starfire Conv)and a past owner of 4 other models, IMHO these cars have taken the back seat to Cutlass, Skylark and GTO's. (yawn!)

Yes the trans is a weak link, as are some hard to find resto parts. But, why not do something different. And save an important slice of GM history, while you are at it. Like some of the other guys, when I roll in to a car show, I have the only one of it's kind and no one knows what it is. How cool is that??, to be a rebel and take the road less travelled.

Overall the price seems fair. Especially for a running and driving example. I just took the plunge and had Ross Racing build me a TH400 conversion, for my 98. Trans was shot and did not want to invest any money into it. Way better to make the upgrade to a modern trans. Will ultimately help the resale value in the long run.

In closing, what the hell has happened to this beloved hobby of ours??? Is everyone only concerned with how much their car is worth?? Who gives a rats ***. Drive something cool, that you built yourself, with blood sweat and tears. Not bought or worse yet some thrown together Rat rod piece of ****.

Sorry for rant, but I feel very strongly, about these issues. Hope a few of you understand.

JT

70cutty

I don't think this is about resale value it's about ability to restore. I like my cars fast and to be able to handle a corner of two. Both can't be done with cars like this without investing a fortune. Low and slow may be your thing my thing is low and fast. Everybody is different.

Don't knock on the rat rods, you wanna talk about sweat and blood, I built a custom frame, ran all the plumbing, all the electrical, built a custom suspension, installed sprint car steering for it, finished welding the body and floors, built the interior, welded a custom roof and more. It's more than you'll ever do to any of your cars. I built my 29 Tudor from ground up, all I had to start with was original shell. I had to drive 1200 miles to pick it up. So to call my car that I built crap is an insult.
Everybody gots their style however different it may be.

navvet

OK its all sounding a bit sad. Maybe when the kids reach the 30's they will look at things differant. My son who is now 29 purchased a boat ( to my complete suprise) a 1971 plymouth satelite when he was 16!!. It was great to see and we did spend some time tinkering. But is was not a priority for him. It was the perfect first car for him..he hit a few things and once filled the tank with diesel fuel!!
Fast foward and wow he purchased a classic 1971 pontiac bonniville a few months ago. He said he fell in love with the style. ( and it is my favorite 70's boat) So maybe all things come full cycle. Now my younger son is making a music video of my 64 dynamic 88. A small glimmer of hope but you reach for what you can

66400

I'm sure he wasn't calling your car crap because it sounds like you did a quality build.

Many rat rods are well executed with real craftsmanship, but there's some really cobbled hack jobs out there that the builders should be ashamed of.

Henry

Koda

I am not sure I agree with all the "purists have gone, now we have tolerance" comments. I will stand by my belief that the original plant should stay in the car as long as it is able, and, if one wishes to change it, one should keep the original components so that it can be returned to stock when, not if, but when, it is sold to the next owner.

They don't make any more of these, and it is a selfish thing to permanently remove the original powertrain and get rid of it because it makes one less numbers matching car on the road. It's as if you have a classic painting in the original frame, put it in a modern frame because you like it better, then throw the old one away just because.

I know it's PC to live and let live, but I tend to project my standards onto people with whom I associate (I call it having morals) and permanently altering works of art, be them paintings or cars, doesn't fly. However, if you can return it to stock, you have my blessing on your endeavors.

70cutty

Like I said everybody has their thing. I like to modify my cars, keep them looking as original as possible on the outside and all business inside. It's my personal work of art. That's just me. I like to go fast, I like to dust Mustangs, camaros, and anybody else who steps up, and that's how I build my cars. My wife says I am immature.......maybe, but I can't help it.
Everybody is different. We come from different background different countries, but we all share our love for our cars. Whether you are in the low rider, muscle car, hot rod or a all original car I will show you respect and If you rev it I will leave you in a cloud of smoke............or at least try, depending on which car I am in.
Sorry I have no love for lifted Cutty's on 24".
But everybody is different.

oldcutlass

My viewpoint on cars is the one that foots the bill gets to project the direction and influence on the car. I understand the viewpoints of the purist to the ratrod and everything in between. Lets not get bitter towards those that think different than you. The reason I don't mess with certain cars is not about what its worth when its done. It's more about what it takes to get it done. It's just not easy to find parts for them here in or around Mayberry and I'm not into treasure hunts.


By your description I guess I have no morals Koda.

Koda

I don't believe I said that, nor do I believe that I deserve to have that insinuated against me.

nsnarsk65cutlass

No doubt the big girls carry less interest,A body is the way to go.I couldn't resist.Nick

jstrits

I worry too about the hobby. I have a few cars that I feel will always have a value but for how long. While I am now 40 and grew up with cars since I can remember (dad has ha over 300) I look at it from not only my hobby and personal taste for them but a bit of the investment side. I look at them as part of my IRA plan. But in even 15 years will my portfolio still be going up or will all the gen x'rs or millenials be worried about what the next cool car is to have and lost their *** on it as they drive off he lot. Anyway I would spend a weekend on that maroon olds. Buff the chalk off that paint, it will again shine, scrub the interior down with bleach white and make it look presentable as it. in my opinion with parts in the front seat it screams major project and stay far away. There are many cars I look at that I say after, had they only spent the time to clean it up better..

barnfind

To me a car is a personal choice, do with it what you will as its your $$$. It is after all a piece of metal. I can understand many points of view, but it boils down to your own and what you wish it to become. If you build it to the t as a factory car, cool. a rat rod, cool. point being you made it your own. These used to be just forms of transportation to most. It makes a hobby such as car building all the more interesting as each has a view point, and we all see things different.

70cutty

I couldn't agree more. Imagine how would it look if all these cars look the same. I think car shows would be pretty boring.

Allan R

To an extent I agree. I often see the same make/models corralled into the same area for judging. Sometimes it's a bit overwhelming, but at the same time it's nice to see what a dealer's lot would have looked like back in the day

whiskey runner

i have been into cars all of my life.. my father, grandfather and most of my uncles all made their living in the auto business.. i in my opinion it is a shame to see such a nice car as that with no one wanting to restore it.... but like said i grew up with detroit iron running thru my viens.. as far as the purist thing goes, i cant see it.. yes it is nice to have a all original numbers matching car..if that is what you are into. i was there back in the day and can tell you that is not how the car hobby was back then.. when a car guy got a hold of a old car . he found a good running or built the best or most powerful engine he could and stuffed in it.. if needed found the nicest seats from the boneyard no matter the make or model to make it comfortable. got the wheels that best pleased him. some went the strip it down to lighten it for more speed route.. while others moved to the george barris type of all out custom eye candy that really turned heads route.. i do truly love old cars.. but in the end all they are is hunks of iron.. family, friends, blood and bone is the only thing i will get upset about .... ...to answer the original poster's question.. i think that the people involved in the car hobby will always change, and the taste in cars will also change with them

Kennybill

Some are taking this "car thing" to serious. Just buy what you like then fix it the way you want. Hey, some people are "elitist" when it comes to cars. I've run into that at meets. They don't bother me a bit. Look at the comments on this thread, some are ready to argue. Jmo, Ken

Koda

Ken, I prefer the term "discuss" to argue. Arguing implies rudeness and rancor, whereas this is just a discussion of differing views. I think the ultimate proof of whether or not one should consider irrevocably modifying their car comes in the resale value. Numbers cars are worth more.

70cutty

Well I look it this way it take anything that costs me $20-30k and countless days and nights in the garage pretty damn serious. JMO

70cutty

Well look it it from another perspective, I take anything that costs me $20-30k or more and countless days and nights in the garage pretty damn serious. JMO

I hope my wife doesn't read this, I don't think I could fix this with a coach purse.

Kennybill

Koda, I didn't mention your name. Preferring one term over another is kind of liking one car over another. Everyone's taste is different. Putting 20/30K in a car is one's choice. This thread was about a $2500 full size Oldsmobile and how interest in these cars is dying off. That's why I was commenting about how the replies were going. As always I phrase my ending as, JMO. KEN

Koda

My apologies. No offense meant or taken, sir.

Kennybill

Koda, no need for apology, we were just discussing opinions. I've been around long enough that I don't take things to personal or to serious, only when it comes to my family. I do like the bigger Oldsmobiles though. I also know there's not a big demand for them. I also know about "moneypits." Glad there's still people in the hobby. Jmo, Ken

70cutty

Man I wish we could all get together and discuss subjects like this over a couple of pitchers of beer and some good BBQ.

Koda

For a while I wanted a 2 door 65 88 with a 425 as I thought the 65 442 still ran on the 330 and I thought maybe it could outrun it. However, that 65's 400 with whatever heads it came with, I forget if they were As or Bs would be faster, I think.

My grandfather, he wasn't purely an Oldsmobile guy, nor GM purely. When he passed he had a 50 DeSoto, 56 Olds 88 with a power pack, a 60 Olds 88, a 72 Monte Carlo, a 73 Chevelle, and a 75 Econoline. All are gone except the Chevy, I wish I'd looked at them more but I was about ten when most got sold. Oh, and a 63 T Bird.

Don R.

This thread has been hijacked into yet another "Why aren't the kids interested in cars" tearjerker like I see on every car forum I subscribe to, all bemoaning the end of the car hobby, the end of restorations, too many hot rods, not enough hot rods, blah, blah, blah. Bulls**t! Tell that to all the people I see every Saturday at the three cars and coffee events I attend which attract just about every classification of car you can think of along with a pretty wide age spectrum.


Going back to the original post, starr88, here are my opinions. One of the first Oldsmobiles I owned was a 64 Jetstar 1 with more than 100,000 miles on it. It impressed me so much that its memory led me to buy the 63 Starfire I have now, more than 40 years later. It is true that these cars are not as well known or popular as the Cutlasses or 442s but that is the case with all large body performance cars from the 60s and 70s. Back when they were new they were the "adult" cars and cost quite a bit more than the smaller cars so less were produced. As far as interest, every time I take my car out there is a lot of interest, mostly because few people know what it is and are fascinated by it. Your car is pretty rough but if you clean it up and advertise it properly I would be surprised if it does not sell. It is more difficult to find parts and knowledge to restore one of these but ask the OCA show winners and they will assure you it is not that tough.


And lastly, I think all the owners of these large Oldsmobiles on this forum would strongly disagree that we are "a dying breed". Definitely a minority here, but a minority with good taste!

ent72olds

Branching off Don's last post, I sold my '72 Cutlass last year....I now have a '67 Delta Vert! I seem to be falling more for the B Bodies for a couple reasons. One is cost to get into a nice one. Another is you don't see them as often!

starr88

[QUOTE=ent72olds;662612]Branching off Don's last post, I sold my '72 Cutlass last year....I now have a '67 Delta Vert! I seem to be falling more for the B Bodies for a couple reasons. One is cost to get into a nice one. Another is you don't see them as often![/QUOTE. Well first off thanks for response to post. I agree on most of what is said here. And i hope that the younger guys will see some day that these cars are rare forms of art. Expressions of a time when size and style ment something more than mere possesion. That the feeling you get riding in one of these treasures is un explainable. And even my son feels it when we are cruising around in our 65 jetstarr88 coupe.so iam not sure its the generation gap or the lack of expression art in the cars today. As for the cars i guess i was getting stir crazy from the cold winter and lack of interest inthe cars (sold an 87 ford ranger for the neighbour and had more calls on it than wither olds) so i will hang on to th we m for now until the universe aranges where there suppose to go.

jaunty75

This was posted over at stationwagonforums.com. It's a transcription of an article that appeared in the March 2014 issue of Car and Driver, and it was written by someone at Hagerty Insurance. I think it more or less confirms the original title to this thread. I've copied it exactly, including all misspellings and everything.




I buy Car & Driver from time to time. Here's an interesting article about boomers and collectible cars. It was written by Rob Sass, "VP of Content" (whatever that is) at Hagerty.

If there's any spelling mistakes or strange words here, it's because my OCR software and spell check didn't catch them (and I was too lazy to proof-read).

Interesting graph is in the article too, but you'll have to buy the magazine to see it.

My theory is buy 'em 'cause you love 'em, not for your retirement plan.

So here's the article text:




A demographic shift looms: Some 76 million baby boomers will soon reach retirement age, crushing the health-care System and the social safety net with their massive numbers. But we have a greater concern: Who's going to buy all their cars?

"I think that boomers are taking a more practical approach to baggage. We want to lighten our loads sooner," says Charlie Kuhn, a 52-year-old collector from the Chicago area. "Guys not much older than me are selling because their kids aren't interested. I'm already thinking about downsizing."

The best estimates we have at the Hagerty Group, which sells classic-car insurance, peg the number of collector cars in the U.S. at roughly 5 million, of which 58 percent are owned by baby boomers, or those born from 1946 through 1964. Our data says that the median age of collector-car owners is 56 years. The oldest boomers are approaching 70, and their interest in the hobby is starting to wane. We won't see a generation of similar size until the so-called millennials hit their peak earning years in a few decades. lt's questionable whether they will care about the cars of their grandfathers and great-grandfathers—or any cars, for that matter.

Confusing the issue further is the fact that the collector-car market is surging right now. Last July, a 1954 Mercedes W196 racer crossed the block for $29.6 million, smashing the old record for a price paid at auction by more than $13 million. Then in August, a'67 Ferrari 275 GTB/4-S NART Spyder took in $27.5 million, the highest price ever for a road car. However, for all those blue-blood auction results, and some hot niches within the hobby as a whole, there are far more examples of mundane Detroit iron sitting in the garages of graybeards. A vast majority of collector cars in the U.S. are, predictably, American—some 80 percent, according to Hagerty data. lt's this backbone of the hobby that is likely in trouble.

We at Hagerty maintain a stock-market style index for various sectors of the classic-car market. The one for 19505 American classics is precisely where it was in January 2010, indicating that demand for formerly appreciating blue chippers, such as the 1955-57 Chevrolet Bel Air, has likely peaked [see above]. Even the Thunderbird two-seaters—once considered the bluest of blue-chips—are struggling.
"They're astonishingly cheap now," says Bob Lichty, a Canton, Ohio, dealer who's been part of the classic-car industry for about 40 years. "The guys who wanted them new are starting to age out of the hobby. A '60s 'Bullet Bird' convertible is easier to move now."

As we speculate about how the collector-car market might change in the next two decades, it's helpful to consider some history. Car collecting traces its roots to the Great Depression, which extinguished grand American marques such as Auburn, Cord, and Duesenberg and ended the era of bespoke coach building. Having saved western civilization during World War II, members of the Greatest Generation turned to saving America's prewar automotive heritage. They realized with starting prescience that the "classic era," as it became known, represented bygone automotive craftsmanship. They collected, preserved, and restored these cars and started clubs such as the Classic Gar Club of America and the Antique Automobile Club of America. On the whole, the World War II generation was a good steward of the hobby it created, collecting the aspirational cars of its youth in a pattern that collectors have followed ever since.

And so it went until the early 1970s, when the collector-car auction business began. Prices for prewar cars rose steadily until the late 19905 when they hit the wall, in part because of oversupply. As the Greatest Generation aged, they scaled back by selling off collections. And as more collectors began to die, the market for prewar cars dried up. The stagnant prices of '50s American cars hint that history may be repeating itself.

"As different generations age out, their cars do, too," says dealer Lichty. "While the owners may die, the cars don't. They don't become worthies, hut there's a shift in the types of people who buy them and the types of collections where they go." The Cadillac V-16s and Duesenbergs survived the shift from the World War II generation just fine, Lichty explains, but ordinary mid-1920s and '30s cars, such as Buicks and Dodges, are stone cold right now. "They're certainly not worthless, just hard to get rid of," he says.
Some baby boomers did embrace the classics of their parents' era, rightfully recognizing hem as objets d'art and pieces of history. This was helped by the sheer volume of boomers, enough to absorb the best collector cars extant while also preserving the cars of their own era. But we shouldn’t expect this phenomenon to be repeated. Not only has the sheer volume of collector cars grown, hut the next generation in the line of succession, the so-called Generation X, isn't as large or as enthusiastic as the boomers.

Kuhn, the Chicago collector, says: "I own a '34 Buick. lt was built 28 years before I was born. I like it because my dad liked them. But our children aren't developing an interest in collector cars. There are too many things going on to capture their attention: travel, sports, the internet, and social media."
One possibility is that the European market could absorb many of the boomers' cars. Michael Sheehan, a Los Angeles-based Ferrari broker, says that "so percent of my sales Of 1950s and '60s Ferraris are to European buyers." Most of the cars go to England and are registered there, Sheehan explains, because the U.K. taxes historic cars at 5 percent, versus 30 percent for the EU. "Europeans are looking for places to park tax-free money, and collectible cars are a particularly wonderful place to do it."

But there are only so many cars that can go to Europe, where anti-car sentiment and corresponding legislation continue to grow. And in China, where incomes are swelling, the government has banned all cars older than 15 years, making importation extremely difficult. Even if we can count on Europeans to absorb some of the boomers' cars, outside of the curious Scandinavian predilection for Yank tanks, Europeans seem most interested in repatriating their own automotive heritage. For example, early Porsche 9115 are white-hot right now.

Tastes change, a fact that will likely also affect the hobby. While today's collector car market is dominated by mostly original cars and more-or-less accurate restorations, the future maybe about restomod sold cars with modern equipment. Heretical as this maybe to some, anecdotal evidence already suggests that restomod buyers tend to be younger, which makes sense. Gen Xers and millennials don't work on their cars as much, with high-school shop classes having been largely eliminated just as computerized complexity made self-wrenching more difficult.

The restomod market is already strong today thanks to the reliability that goes along with replacing 50-year-old guts with something newer. So, too, is the market for an clean, complete cars ready to accept a crate engine and an automatic transmission. A declining number of drivers can even operate a manual, which brings up another likely change for the hobby: automatics getting the price premium over manuals.

Car collecting as a pastime won't fade away—horses still enjoy an enthusiastic following more than 100 years after being displaced by the car. But the hobby will certainly evolve. The internet continues to transform it, ameliorating the scarcity of parts, bringing owners together to share information, and increasing the supply of cars. Many of the old rules about what defines a collector car and the relative values of different types are likely to be challenged. The Holy Grail or Hemi 'Cuda of the next generation may well come from abroad—an E30 BMW M3 or an Alex Zanardi-edition Acura NSX. One thing won't change, however: The happiest people in the hobby are the ones who buy what they like first and let the market worry about return on investment.

Koda

Thanks for the article. That is interesting. I think most of that info is correct. I have a soft spot for pre-war cars due to my proximity to Newport, IN and their yearly Antique Auto Hill Climb, which allows pre-war cars and discontinued makes (that were axed before 70) up to the 1956 model year. So, you see a lot of Model T's, A's, Studebakers, Hudsons, LaSalles, and Packards. Prices are startlingly reasonable on many of these cars, due to the exact reasons above.

Pre-war cars were the old cars to collect, and 50s and muscle were the new ones. Now the muscle are the old ones to collect, and the 80s and 90s are the new, but where, like they ask, do the non-premium older ones go? Add to that that anything pre-war (generalization here) is much less compatible with modern highways than something from the 60s. Something all original that has to go flat out to simply hold the speed limit, if even that, isn't going to be as popular since it's so limiting on what you can do with it.

Kennybill

Sell sell sell! Ken