When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Hello 700 R4 behind a olds 455 500 hp jukebox on wheels. While sitting at a traffic light sounds like sand in a rotating drum and it pulsates while approaching the traffic light. History; This is a monster transmission that maybe has 4000 mile on it, at 2000 miles it started hard shifting no matter how I would adjust the tv cable. A local shop went through it and it’s been fine for another 2000 miles till this happened. Which is, I was playing with my timing advance curve on my MSD distributor trying different springs and stops. I would try different configurations, write it down and take it out and womp on it a few times. That's when this noise and pulsating started. Any suggestions, thoughts would be appreciated. Update: torque converter failed shavings throughout. I'm done with 700r4's and ele. lockup torque converters. Looks like turbo 400 for me.
Last edited by oldsmobilejim; August 5th, 2020 at 01:10 PM.
Reason: update
Pull the pan, see what debris is there. "Sand in a drum" while NOT MOVING makes me think the torque converter has failed.
"Pulsates approaching a traffic light"? Sure that the rotors/drums aren't warped? How about low-speed misfire affecting torque pulsation? If the "sand in a drum" is while slowing down, I'd think brakes before transmission.
I've torn-up the planetaries of a TH700 twice, behind relatively stock TBI 5.7L engines. I have no idea how a 700 can be expected to survive behind a big-block.
I think it's time to start looking into 4L80E or similar. Even if it's not destroyed yet, you'll want to prepare for the inevitable.
Last edited by Schurkey; July 26th, 2020 at 04:33 PM.
built by monster transmission and rebuilt by greenville transmission clinic. Monster trans.did ask eng.specs and usage.
And then gave you a worthless warranty so they'd never have to be responsible for the inevitable failure. The internet is full of folks warning other folks about Monster Transmission.
Maybe I should post photos of the tore-up planetaries and 2-4 band that came out of my 5.7L K1500 with a 700.
Ok guys.. What, where and by who builds a bullet proof automatic overdrive that can handle a 500 hp 500 plus ft.lb.torque jukebox on wheels.
Thanks Oldsmobilejim
I am not familiar with "modern" transmissions. I know there's six, eight, and maybe ten-speed automatics, some of which might be found in 3/4- or 1-ton pickups/Suburbans. You may have more-modern options than what I'd choose.
If this were me, I'd be looking for a 1997-newer 4L80E (or 4L85E) that still works, and I'd slap in a Transgo shift kit or maybe a performance reprogramming kit. https://transgo.com/product-details/4l80-shift-kit/
There's several companies that make stand-alone trans controllers needed for the electronically-controlled transmissions. You "could" slap in a manual valve-body kit to eliminate the electronic controller, but why buy an automatic transmission that won't shift automatically?
The '97-newer '80Es have an improved lubrication circuit, and I think they're set up to tow in overdrive. Any '80E could do OK in your application, though. You might have to "massage" the trans tunnel for clearance; the '80E is bulky.
I'd buy a decent, WORKING 4L80E, and not bother having it rebuilt until/if it gave me actual issues.
I'm thinking that a stock '80E is rated for 440 ft/lbs on GM's durability cycle...which would be about 900 ft/lbs on an aftermarket durability test.
Last edited by Schurkey; July 27th, 2020 at 07:34 PM.
Everybody puts the blinders on when there's a problem because human nature makes the brain automatically go to the worst-case scenario...panic/flight? Likely, at the cost of repairs.
This is why troubleshooting root cause fundamentals were invented defined and refined.
Let's keep it simple.
Do you hear the noise while you are running it through the gears up on the jack stands?
While it's in the air (using a long screwdriver held to your ear if needed) zero in on the general area of the noise.
Have you inspected the brakes, wheel and driveshaft interference? (Keep all appendages clear of the rotating driveshaft...loose clothing and long hair as well).
Does the trans function properly? NO? Step 1 Inspect the fluid condition and level than the pan contents as already mentioned. Chunks? Drop trans and inspect/repair/replace.
Step 2. No chunks? Put the pan back on. Refill. Test the line pressures in PRD123. In or out of Spec? a. Out of spec... Drop Trans and inspect the circuits which were out-of-spec. b. In Spec.... Inspect the converter and flex plate. If they look OK unbolt the converter push it back into the trans away from the flex plate. Start engine. Noise gone? Yes... then it's the converter/trans. Noise not gone? The problem is forward of the converter/trans.
Look at the flexplate closely Sometimes cracks arent apparent if they are fresh.
One of these days I'm going to search the interweb for someone online who has laid 700, 200, 350, 400 guts side by side. As soon as you see the difference between a 200, versus a 400 you will see why I don't like 200s behind a big block torque monster. Yes, a 200 can be built. But it's expensive compared to a regular old TH400.
The 480LE is a modern TH400 with a 4th gear. But you need a stand-alone TCM to drive the electronics, same for a 460LE (comparable to a TH350). 480LE and 460Le are fairly intuitive to do now that kits are made. Somewhat expensive thou.
Option 2 is Put an upgraded TH400 in it with a GV overdrive and go beat it like a rented mule.
Thanks will keep you guys updated and remember keep it between the lines. Update: torque converter failed shavings throughout. I'm done with 700r4's and ele. lockup torque converters. Looks like turbo 400 for me.
Last edited by oldsmobilejim; August 5th, 2020 at 01:16 PM.
Ok guys.. What, where and by who builds a bullet proof automatic overdrive that can handle a 500 hp 500 plus ft.lb.torque jukebox on wheels.
Thanks Oldsmobilejim
There is no question a 4L80 will handle that power, with ease, for many years.
if the transmission is out, I’d go with the CK shift kit. Tear down the trans to the center support and do the dual feed modifications internally. The TransGo kit will dual feed thru the special separator plate, but hydraulically it’s limited by how much fluid can actually flow thru the plate. Don’t do the pressure relief modifications, in theory it’s a good idea, in reality it can cause potential headaches. The original intent of the TransGo pressure release is to vent line pressure if it goes to high, preventing parts breakage. Replace the boost valve with the Sonnax part, and fix the cause of the failure, not the symptoms. The TransGo fix can leak around the valve, causing line pressure issues.
The earlier 4L80 (non center lube models) fit the transmission tunnel of our cars much easier. The center lube models also take a unique cooler line fitting at the rear. I don’t really understand HydraMatics redesign of the cooler/lube hydraulics, the TH400 was a very durable and proven design. I think all of the major early 4L80 parts will interchange with the 400, at least from the direct clutch back. There were many dimensional changes to the carriers and planetary of the center lube models, all with the intent of adding durability. The original 400 is capable of power far exceeding the original intention, I’m guessing since the 4L80 uses many of the same component it would be capable of similar power.
I have built many 400 that live in street cars making well over 1500 wheel hp with nothing more than a steel clutch hub, premium frictions, and some valve body/ hydraulic upgrades. As for the 4L80, it comes factory with a steel clutch hub (the aftermarket hubs are made from better steel) the input shaft and overdrive sprag need some attention around 1000 hp. For 90% of the street cars, a stock 4L80 In good condition with a good shift kit is all that is needed. If and when it wears out, rebuild it with premium frictions, it will outlast the original.
Last edited by matt69olds; July 28th, 2020 at 05:22 AM.
More useless info: the 4L85 is basically the same as the center lube 4L80s, except they upgraded the planetary gearsets from the common 4 pinion gears to 5 pinions. To the best of my knowledge, as long as the sun gear and bearings are also changed, the 5 pinion setup will retrofit all the way back to the original 400. I haven’t built one yet, as long as the fluid is kept relatively clean and cool, planet wear isn’t a concern. The early 400 had a small cup plug with a orifice in intermediate shaft, it’s design was to limit oil flow to the gearset. The cup plug was eliminated in 1969ish. At the same time, Hydromatic improves the bearings by increasing the number of rollers. Apparently, Hydromatic saw some gearset wear in some of the early units and decided to make a production change to address it. Obviously, it worked. The only experience I have seen of gearset wear comes from flat towing a car with the engine off. If the driveshaft spins the transmission with the engine not running, no lubrication to the gears, bearings, thrust washers, etc.
The cup plug should be removed from the intermediate shaft if preset. A piece of 1/4 steel rod will easily knock it out.
Last edited by matt69olds; July 28th, 2020 at 05:37 AM.
Matt,
Great info on the modern 4 speeds...480LE err 4L80E/4L85E. I'll go up and edit that. Teach me to type before bedtime.
I will be tearing into a TH400 soon. This one is dual fed. Very nasty shifting trans! But would lurch forward when in park. Looks like I have a good cross leak somewhere. The driveshaft was too long and the rear end forced the yoke into the tail shaft. No chunks but I suspect some decent damage in this one.
I'd be interested in the 5 pinion set up. Any idea where to source the parts individually or as a kit?
Good advice on the internal dual feed.
Do you mean present, not preset in the last line of your last post?
Steve
July 26th, 2020, 09:48 AM
