When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
The thread on classic car insurance reminded me to check value of my car.
Today I looked up the value of Cutlass Vistas and wagons versus their underlying sedans.
I discovered my Vista Cruiser value has doubled in the 4 years since its restoration. And the rate of increase has accelerated over that time (up 35% in the last year).
The value of the Cutlass wagon is up similarly.
Overall, depending on condition and the comp chosen, the Vista and Cutlass wagons are worth 3 to 6 times sedan (or even coupe) prices.
Frequent readers know that I have little faith in these old car price guides. Here's a classic example of why. The RPO L31 455/365 HP engine was NEVER factory installed in any flattop wagon, Cutlass, F85, or more-door in the 1970 model year, so these values are complete BS. The only BBO offered in those cars was the L33 320 HP 2bbl motor, and it was dropped in a marketing bulletin dated Feb 24, 1970 (attached). The L31 motor was only offered in the Supreme hardtop and convertible with the SX package as a replacement for the L33. The only documented flattop wagon with a 4bbl 455 built in the 1970 model year was the hand-built flattop with a W-30 drivetrain that was tested by Road and Track and Car Life early in 1970. That car was never offered to the public.
Someone reads these price guides….very hard to find a clean wagon (flat top or Vista) these days for what may be considered a “decent” price…just an example:
Someone reads these price guides….very hard to find a clean wagon (flat top or Vista) these days for what may be considered a “decent” price…just an example:
As for these price guides, they are based primarily on documented sales at big name auctions (BJ, Mecum, etc). There is no physical way that any company compiling a price guide can track the sale price of every vehicle sold through Craigslist or FB Marketplace. That's why these price guides always skew astronomically high - BJ and the like isn't the real world, period. Naturally, watching these auctions on TV, everyone thinks that their POS is now worth a million bucks. The closest thing I've found to an actual value guide is to track completed auction sale prices on ebay. Unfortunately they usually only go back a month or so, but it's still a data point. The first thing you notice is that the high priced cars never meet reserve. Very few expensive cars actually sell through ebay - and yeah, I realize that a lot of sellers just use ebay for advertising and complete the sale offline. There used to be a website that tracked ebay auction prices, but it's been gone for a few years now. And to be honest, even cars that are supposedly "sold" on ebay sometimes show up two or three weeks later with the same ad, so clearly money did not change hands. Ebay auctions that don't meet reserve are meaningless, since you don't know if those were real bids or shills.
Yes, there are many ways that bogus data inflate the prices shown in price guides. But they probably affect every model about the same.
Therefore, I didn't focus on absolute value in my original post; I emphasized two comparative points...
1. Wagon values have increased quickly in the last few years.
2. Wagon values are now multiples of the underlying sedan prices.
Unfortunately one cannot draw those conclusions from the table you posted. All of the values listed are for one-of-none cars, so the numbers (absolute or relative) are meaningless.
Joe, those are valid points. And I appreciate your dedication to providing grounded counterpoint. I did get a bit excited to start.
So, I looked on another site that listed only average retail price of base models. That's still not perfect, but it probably eliminates some of the hyperbole at the high and low ends and, hopefully, sidesteps the one-of-none problem.
Again, this isn't about absolute value, it's only about comparing wagons to underlying sedans with similar trim-level.
1970 Cutlass 4-Door Town Sedan, Base Model - $7050
1970 Cutlass 4-Door Station Wagon, Base Model $9200 (30% higher)
1970 Cutlass Supreme 4-Door Hardtop Sedan, Base Model - - - - - - $7800
1970 Vista Cruiser 4-Door, 7-Passenger Station Wagon, Base Model $33,700 (330% higher)
Those numbers for the Station Wagon and VC, with whatever built-in fluff remains, are about double what I saw 4 years ago when I presented information to my insurer about wagon values. I'm confident in saying that, recently, these wagon prices have appreciated quickly versus their 40-year, step-child lows.
And, in the interest of complete honesty...
Originally Posted by joe_padavano
All of the values listed are for one-of-none cars...
That statement would read correctly as: "80% of the values listed are for one-of-none cars..."
I know you know better than what you posted, but we all get excited from time to time and generalize.
Your second set of data is more reasonable, but what's the source? I'm frankly not surprised by the fact that the VCs bring a premium. Between the uniqueness, the fact that buyers of a certain age remember them from their childhood, and the 70s Show connection, I'm sure they bring more value that more-doors. The question I keep coming back to is, what's the sample size and source for that data? I frankly can't imagine that many more-door Cutlii cross the block at BJ, Mecum, etc. Does this data somehow include other sources, like ebay completed sales? Let's be honest, there is no way to track private party sales. A lot of stuff gets published on the interwebs. Some of it is even true.
I'd love a more door for GP cruising. Drop a warmed-up 455 a Tremec and have tons of worry-free fun.
Have ya seen the prices on your **** tickets lately? If you don't do the shoppin ask the wife how much the price of toilet paper has gone up in the last 2 years. Everything is 35% more and growing. Gettin to the point where I may have to squeeze my azz cheeks even tighter!
Don't get me goin on supply chain and raw material problems this country is experiencing...GRRRR!
Yes, there are many ways that bogus data inflate the prices shown in price guides. But they probably affect every model about the same.
1. Wagon values have increased quickly in the last few years.
It's not just the Vista's, it's all wagons. I bought an absolute creampuff '94 Buick Roadmaster wagon two years ago to use as a DD/commuter/winter beater. At the time I paid what was a fair amount, and with current trends I could double my money if I wanted to sell. (not that I want to, I love the car)
This is a decent site to get actual sale data for the past five years:
I tried to reply to this thread yesterday, when I clicked post reply it redirected and said my post had to be approved by an administrator. Its been over 24 hours and still nothing, however I'm able to reply to other threads. Is it because of my new member status (a minimum post thing?) or something different?
I tried to reply to this thread yesterday, when I clicked post reply it redirected and said my post had to be approved by an administrator. Its been over 24 hours and still nothing, however I'm able to reply to other threads. Is it because of my new member status (a minimum post thing?) or something different?
Sorry for the delay, I just now saw your prior post and approved it (no idea why the forum software flagged it). As for the site you posted, I tried to find something on that site that tells me the source of their data. Nada, which always makes me suspicious. The fact that someone has a website doesn't mean that the information is accurate. Once again, that site only appears to use data from big name auctions and BaT; every one of those sources skews high. As I noted above, there is no way to track the prices of private sales (FB marketplace, Craigslist, etc.) Cherry picking the data is a good way to skew values. Take that info with a heavy dose of skepticism.
Sorry for the delay, I just now saw your prior post and approved it (no idea why the forum software flagged it). As for the site you posted, I tried to find something on that site that tells me the source of their data. Nada, which always makes me suspicious. The fact that someone has a website doesn't mean that the information is accurate. Once again, that site only appears to use data from big name auctions and BaT; every one of those sources skews high. As I noted above, there is no way to track the prices of private sales (FB marketplace, Craigslist, etc.) Cherry picking the data is a good way to skew values. Take that info with a heavy dose of skepticism.
Thanks for the quick response and action.
I agree to take the classics site with a grain of salt, I see high asking prices everywhere but actual (private) sales can differ widely. BaT is a place all their own, seems the place to be for the fat wallet crowd. Kinda like using the Pawn Stars as a price guide
April 3rd, 2022, 05:59 PM
