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RPM at highway speeds

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Old July 21st, 2018, 05:28 PM
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RPM at highway speeds

Hi guys,

Does anyone know what a stock 1971 Cutlass Supreme, 350 engine, 2.56 gears (I think) automatic transmission should be running for RPM at roughly 60-65MPH? It looks like mine is running about 3000 give or take. I was wondering if there is a different transmission than the 3 speed auto that would work with this setup, maybe a 4 speed with OD or something. I read some other posts and it seems like the limiting factors are that chevy transmission don't easily bolt up to the olds engine, and some transmissions just simply won't work with the 2.56 gear so they need to be updated to a 3.XX ratio.

Just wondering if anyone knows some solutions or the above listed options really are all there is.

Thanks!
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Old July 21st, 2018, 05:42 PM
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If your turning 3k rpm at 65 mph w 256 gears somethings wrong.

I would guess it would be closer to 2 k rpms w that set up.

I have 342s and turn 3 k at 65 ish mph.

Either you don't have 256s your trans isn't shifting to third or you have some small tires on the car.
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Old July 21st, 2018, 06:35 PM
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Yeah, it seemed kinda strange to me too. I think it originally came with 14's but it now has 15's. I'm not sure if the overall diameter changed in terms of the 14's probably having a larger sidewall. I was just a passenger today. I will take it out tomorrow and make sure it is getting out of second gear. The car is so quite and smooth it was hard to tell.

Perhaps there is a different gear in there. It was just such a basic model with limited options and I know it isn't posi. I just assumed it was the original stock gear because if I were to change it I would be sure to make the change to posi. Perhaps it just came stock with a different gear than 2.56, it just seems to be the most common gear. When I get time I will get the rear tires off the ground and count tire rotation versus driveshaft rotation and see what that tells me.
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Old July 21st, 2018, 06:47 PM
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Are you sure the tach and speedo are reading correct?
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Old July 21st, 2018, 07:41 PM
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Well, that was the other thing that crossed my mind. Speed it backed up by GPS, but the tach is a new tic toc tach reproduction just installed yesterday. I know these may not be extremely accurate, but I find it hard to believe it could be out by that much, I could of course be wrong on that. If the car wasn't so quiet I could at least have a better gauge on if it is way out there. I don't have the best ear for that, but 2000 rpm sounds a lot different than 3000 rpm.

A new exhaust system is on the list, but that will be done after the car is put away for winter.... provided I can get the new garage insulated and heater by then. I suppose I could always just sack up and do it in the cold, but that isn't very fun, and I don't like storing nice cars in uncontrolled climates like that.
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Old July 21st, 2018, 08:15 PM
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The tic-tic-tachs are not very accurate. Are you feeling all 3 gears? With 2.56 gears the car should glide down the toad at barely more than a fast idle. My guess is either the speedo, tach, or both are way off.
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Old July 22nd, 2018, 04:04 AM
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A 2.56 should be doing less than 2500 at 70. My 2.73 does 2500 at 70. I would think you would be at 2000 at 65. You can use an engine tester tach hooked up temporarily and drive down the road to see. I think you are missing high gear.
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Old July 22nd, 2018, 04:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Koda
A 2.56 should be doing less than 2500 at 70. My 2.73 does 2500 at 70. I would think you would be at 2000 at 65. You can use an engine tester tach hooked up temporarily and drive down the road to see. I think you are missing high gear.
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Old July 22nd, 2018, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by 71OldsCut
2.56 gears (I think)

Here's one problem. You need to know the real rear end ratio, not just "I think". The rear end ratio could have been 2.56 (which was base equipment with the 350 2bbl and AT), 2.73 (base equipment with 4bbl), 3.08, or 3.23.
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Old July 22nd, 2018, 07:07 AM
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calculate your own

http://www.csgnetwork.com/multirpmcalc.html


do the math
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Old July 22nd, 2018, 07:27 AM
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This is my favorite, just add to 250 to 300 rpm for your non lock up torque converter and switch to 1 for your trans ratio. It is nice having a built in tire height calculator.
http://tech.oldsgmail.com/axle_RPM.php
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Old July 24th, 2018, 12:54 PM
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So I just had the car out today finally. It does indeed appear that it doesn't want to shift into third. Under what I consider normal acceleration, it shifts to second at about 18 MPH and roughly 1500 RPM, but then never seems to shift again. It is at about 2000 RPM by 45 or so, and the previously mentioned 3000 RPM at 60 MPH.

I did some google searching and it sounds like the most likely cause is either a vacuum connection issue, or that the throttle valve cable requires adjustment. I will check both of those as soon as I can. Does anyone agree/disagree with those being possible reasons or have any other ideas to check while I am out there?

Thanks!
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Old July 24th, 2018, 01:53 PM
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A turbohydramatic 350 is controlled by engine vacuum and a kick down switch. The kick down is not relevant here. I think that since it shifts once the vacuum and modulator is probably ok, though those hoses are easier to check than dropping the pan. You may have crap in the valve body preventing the 2-3 shift. What is the condition of the fluid, is there enough of it, is it still nice and pink and does it smell burned? When was it serviced last?
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Old July 24th, 2018, 01:59 PM
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I did check the fluid a couple of months ago when we got the car. It didn't look or smell burned and the level was good. I will have to dig through the receipts it came with but there was one from a transmission shop for routine maintenance not too long ago, unless I am recalling the date wrong. I will confirm that.
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Old July 24th, 2018, 04:19 PM
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I just checked it again and it seems clean and is at the right level. If it is a valve body, is that something that can be removed and replaced in a driveway or are you better or taking it to a transmission shop to have done? Are the clutches prone to needing replacement in these or are they usually not an issue?
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Old July 24th, 2018, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Koda
A turbohydramatic 350 is controlled by engine vacuum and a kick down switch. The kick down is not relevant here. I think that since it shifts once the vacuum and modulator is probably ok, though those hoses are easier to check than dropping the pan. You may have crap in the valve body preventing the 2-3 shift. What is the condition of the fluid, is there enough of it, is it still nice and pink and does it smell burned? When was it serviced last?
I ask because i dont know but would it still shift 1-2 if the kickdown was on and just not shift to 3 I thought i read that before
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Old July 24th, 2018, 07:32 PM
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Here is another good tool.
https://www.1010tires.com/Tools/Tire-Size-Calculator
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Old July 24th, 2018, 07:47 PM
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this guy had the same issue only shifts 1-2 no 2-3

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...-shifting.html
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Old July 24th, 2018, 08:03 PM
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Ok, good information. From what I hear it sounds more likely to be a vacuum issue over a kickdown cable issue, but I keep reading that even if it shifts 1-2, the kickdown cable could still cause it to not shift to 2-3. Seems logical to me that it wouldn't be the issue but it sounds easy enough to check so I will. I am hoping that one of the two will fix it. If not this sounds like it will get expensive....

I am probably going to do an oil change this weekend so I will see what I can figure out while down there. Fingers crossed....
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Old July 25th, 2018, 01:35 AM
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Make a couple ful throttle acceleration tests, make sure you don’t over rev the engine. See if it will eventually go into 3rd. Next, at about 20-25mph, drop the shifter into 1st gear, does it go back to 1st and have engine braking (meaning the engine is slowing down the car without the use of the brakes) If you have engine braking in manual 1st gear, and a solid engagement into reverse, you can be reasonable sure the clutches are in decent shape. In 3rd gear the direct clutches mechanically lock the gearset together for direct drive. The direct clutches also become the driving clutch in reverse gear. The low/reverse clutches apply in manual 1 gear to provide engine braking, the also engage for reverse gear. If everything checks out so far, you can be reasonably sure your trouble is valve body related. Before dropping the pan and drenching your hair in nasty ATF, carefully inspect the vacuum hose to the modulator. If it’s rubber hose, or kinked steel tubing, replace it with the proper steel tubing. Make sure you have a good vacuum supply, sometimes the fitting on the intake gets gummed up with carbon. Just because you have vacuum at the hose, doesn’t mean you have a STRONG vacuum signal. If everything checks out, make sure the lockdown cable under the dash is adjusted right. The cable should be pulled right at about the same time the gas pedal is at WOT. Make sure the cable hasn’t been kinked , melted, twisted, and moves and returns to idle freely. If all checks out at this point, replace the modulator. It’s about 10 bucks at AutoZone, and it has a small screw in the vaccum neck to fine tune shift points. Spray the bolt that holds the modulator to the case with lots of penetration oil, and I would strongly suggest heating the case with a torch where the bolt threads in. The bolt is sometimes held in place with “environmental Locktite” and can break off in the case. If the bolt does break, repair clips are available that use a pan bolt to retain the modulator.

After all this and you still have no 3rd gear, it’s time to drop the valve body. I would suggest installing a TransGo or B&M shift kit at the same time, the kit will have instructions and include durability upgrades. A shift kit on a TH350 is pretty easy, just make sure to clean everything and use Vasoline (not wheel bearing grease!) to retain the little check ***** in the case. It helps to refrigerate the Vaseline so it isn’t as runny to hold the ***** in place.

My bet is a vacuum supply issue or a bad modulator. A part throttle 1-2 shift at 18mph seems a little high. Hopefully it’s a easy fix.
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Old July 25th, 2018, 06:31 AM
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Wow, that is a great to do list with lots of well explained information, thank you so much! I will go through all of that hopefully this weekend and see where I end up.
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Old July 25th, 2018, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by 71OldsCut
Wow, that is a great to do list with lots of well explained information, thank you so much! I will go through all of that hopefully this weekend and see where I end up.

i had a machine down at work last night, I had lots of time to kill. 😎
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Old July 27th, 2018, 01:32 PM
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Hi Guys,

I am going to go see what I can find out about all of this today or tomorrow. I went to just have a quick look right now to see if there was anything obvious. I did see there is a piece with three connections on it that I have seen in another post but mine has nothing to any of them. I did just coincidentally find a post a few days ago that talked about this piece but I can't find it again so I figured I would just post here and see if anyone knows what this is and if it is OK that there is nothing attached.
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Old July 27th, 2018, 04:27 PM
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Transmission Controlled Spark
It's an early attempt at emission control and works by preventing vacuum advance until the engine is up to temperature and the transmission is in high gear.
In actual operation it inhibits power and economy by depriving the engine of vacuum advance in the lower gears.
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Old July 29th, 2018, 10:33 AM
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Ok, so here is where I am at. When manually shifting to 1st at about 25MPH, it feels like hitting the brakes and it goes into reverse fine, so the clutches would appear to be fine.

I have the steel hose going to the modulator which appears to be kink free and in decent shape. I first did the vacuum test where the hose connects to the modulator. It was about 14.5" so I thought great, maybe there is just a blockage or leak in the line, but then I checked where that hose connects to the manifold and get the same 14.5". I then checked the other connection point behind the carb that connects to the air cleaner and again 14.5".

So, my question at the moment is what is a good, or acceptable vacuum reading for this car? My online research as well as the gauge's green zone shows 17-22" is good, but is that based on newer vehicles or is that range basically the same for all cars new and old?

It sounds like two main things would cause this - worn piston rings, or incorrect timing. It doesn't seem to burn oil (haven't had it long enough to say definitively) and there isn't any smoke coming out the exhaust at either start up or running/acceleration. I have not checked the timing (no timing light, it is on the list) but am also wondering would this have anything to do with nothing being connected for the above noted transmission controlled spark?

Thanks for all the help so far!
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Old July 29th, 2018, 11:39 AM
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Your vacuum is good, at least good enough that the trans should shift normally. Did you try a WOT run to see if it would eventually go into 3rd? Is the kinda clfown canle free to move? If you pull the cable, does it snap back freely?
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Old July 29th, 2018, 11:52 AM
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Have not done the wide open throttle but did accelerate hard. Being new to the car and possibly bad timing/tuning I am concerned about damaging something. At hard acceleration it still at no point even attempted a shift. It doesn't try and slip or anything, just plain and simple doesn't even try.

Where is this cable under the dash. I haven't checked that yet. I have a new modulator but didn't change it yet because I wasn't sure if my vacuum reading might have been the issue, in which case I could change parts all day and probably not fix it.

My neighbor is great with this stuff and is around this week. He is going to bring his timing light over and check that. While his knowledge is around he said he will also help get that new carb on too, so if nothing else fuel mixture/timing and tuning should be able to be ruled out soon. He is doubtful that it is a vacuum issue and suspects throttle body. I still want to be absolutely positive it isn't anything exterior to the transmission before opening that up and pulling the throttle body out, especially because the vacuum readings are less than ideal. Like you said it should still be enough to work the transmission so I am still hopeful that the modulator change will work.

One other thing that some are saying could cause this is a bad governor. Could that be an issue or would it not even shift to 2nd if that was a problem?
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Old July 29th, 2018, 01:05 PM
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If the 1-2 shift is normal most likely the governor is fine. The kick down cable goes thru the firewall and connects to the throttle pedal. On the transmission it comes out of the case near the cooler lines. Or if the trans/engine has been swapped it may be on the carburetor linkage. Either way if the cable is holding the detent valve in its WOT position it’s not going to shift until maybe 60-70mph.
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Old July 29th, 2018, 01:14 PM
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Ok, I will go check that cable out. I didn't see anything like that on the carburetor linkage so it is probably still by the pedal.
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Old July 29th, 2018, 01:29 PM
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Interesting, so the cable does move freely and looks fine, but it moves about 1 to maybe 1/4". Is that normal? Above you say just before WOT, so to me that would mean it should only be moving maybe 1/4" or so. It seems to be getting pulled at maybe half throttle or less right now.
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Old July 29th, 2018, 02:31 PM
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The cable travel should max out at WOT. If you pull the cable tight does it snap back when release it?
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Old July 29th, 2018, 03:16 PM
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Also, these cars were set to grab another gear under full throttle at redline. My "clean out the secondaries and test transmission shifting" is as follows. You need an interstate or a 4 lane road in the boones. Get to 55 or 60. Bury it to the floor. Observe kickdown to second. Enjoy V8 power. Observe tachometer. Observe WOT shift to high at @4500 rpm. Continue for a little bit then let off.

Bear in mind that this WOT shift to third, with that rear, will occur at around 100 mph.
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Old July 29th, 2018, 04:04 PM
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Well, it looks like the cable is in good working order and adjusted properly. When pulled out and released it snaps back, and when pulled out fully, the pedal catches it just as it hit WOT. One more thing off the list. I will try to get that modulator changed in the next day or two just to rule that out. Hopefully that will do it.
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Old July 30th, 2018, 06:01 PM
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Good evening everyone,

So new modulator in, no difference. Took it out on the highway just to be sure and after the shift to 2nd, it just keeps climbing until I am at 60MPH at 3000 RPM.

So with modulator, plugged vacuum line, clutches, kickdown cable, fluid level/fluid condition all checked and passed, it seems like the next step is the valve body, correct? The only thing I haven't checked is the governor, but it seems like the common opinion is that this is fine otherwise it wouldn't shift right from 1st to 2nd.

So, if the valve body is up next, do I just take this out, clean it and inspect it for anything obvious? It doesn't look like there are any rebuild kits or anything like that for it. If so, is there any preferred cleaner to use? Anything specific to be on the lookout for that could be causing this issue? I have a new transmission filter and gasket coming this week so I should be able to get to this on the weekend.

My neighbor has suggested that sometimes when transmission shops do a type of flush on a transmission it can lodge dirt in places that create problems that were not there before. Interestingly there is a receipt from a couple of years ago from a transmission service place, but it just says fluid change not flush, but perhaps that has been done. Either way, taking the valve body out and cleaning it should take care of that I would think.

Thanks for all the great help and advice so far, I really appreciate it.
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Old July 30th, 2018, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by 71OldsCut
So new modulator in, no difference. Took it out on the highway just to be sure and after the shift to 2nd, it just keeps climbing until I am at 60MPH at 3000 RPM.
You didn't hold it long enough. Under WOT the trans should shift around 4800 RPM under normal operation; with a modulator issue, I have seen a bit over 5000 RPM.

Last edited by Fun71; July 30th, 2018 at 06:42 PM.
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Old July 30th, 2018, 06:46 PM
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I have been building transmissions for about 20 years, I have heard all the wives tales about not changing fluid because it stirs up crap and causes issues. My opinion, that’s a bunch of crap. If the transmission is serviced on a somewhat reasonable basis, there shouldn’t be a bunch of crud to get stirred up. Secondly, would you never change your engine oil and filter? Of course not. Third, if the trans fails after a service, it was already on its last miles. Let’s face it, most people don’t bother changing fluid until they have a concern.

My Dodge Ram diesel has 180K of hard miles, lots of towing, heavy loads, and is still going strong. I installed a TransGo shift kit at 40000, and change the fluid l,filter and adjust the bands about every 25000. There is never more than a light dusting of crud in the pan, nothing more than normal clutch and band wear. I suggest to anyone who will listen there is nothing wrong with regular transmission maintenance.

TransGo, B&M, TCI, Superior, all make excellent shift kits. If you install one with the Towing calibration you will have a slightly firmer and quicker shift, that won’t knock the dash out of the car. The street performance calibration will be pretty hard bang/screech shift at full throttle. All the shift kits basically work the same, the Superior and TransGo kits are a little more “civilized” for daily driving. If you have a slightly looser converter, install the B&M kit, it’s cheaper and the looser converter will absorb a lot of the harshness.

Shift kits in TH350 are pretty easy to install. Between the instructions and YouTube videos are all the help you need. If your trans doesn’t have a drain plug, buy a drain plug kit and big drain pan. Drill a hole in the pan where you want the drain plug, let the fluid slowly drain into the pan. Follow the shift kit instructions, keep everything CLEAN and organized. Use vasoline to hold the check ***** and small parts in place. Make sure all the valves move freely, make sure the kick down cable inside the trans is free to move. Good luck
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Old July 30th, 2018, 06:49 PM
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I know, I wasn't trying to force it into third at WOT. I don't really have a road near by that is suitable to do that and I am concerned about damaging something else by doing that test. It would be a big gamble to try that around here, seems to be a lot of police, and the car stands out quite a bit, but then again I guess any car doing over 100MPH is going to get the attention of the police, lol.
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Old July 30th, 2018, 07:03 PM
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Take it out for a highway drive, if it hasn’t gone into 3rd gear by 4000 rpm chances are it’s not going to. Find a empty quiet stretch of road to really wind it out, don’t over-rev it but get it up to a speed that there is no question it should have gone into 3rd.

I just thought of something, surely you checked the shifter linkage to make sure drive on the PRND2L is actually 3rd gear on the transmission?
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Old July 30th, 2018, 07:30 PM
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I haven't checked that, but when manually going through the gears wouldn't that have shown itself there? It all seems to line up properly and work as it should. Reverse and neutral work as they should, then there is D, S and L, all of which do what you would expect. If D was actually lined up with where S is, would that throw everything else out too? And if D was where S is, would that mean when in D it would start in 2nd and stay in second? If my understanding of this is incorrect I will get back under there tomorrow and have a look.

Thanks
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Old July 30th, 2018, 07:41 PM
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If it's in S then it will shift normally through 1st and 2nd gears, the same as if it were in D, but 3rd gear would be "locked out" so to speak.
It's not like an old Ford transmission where those start in 2nd if the shifter is in second instead of Drive.
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