WhatIf

Thought you guys would like to see this one.

http://www.mecum.com/auctions/lot_de...10_032210_S121

citcapp

Neat, this will go for some big bucks I'm betting

aliensatemybuick

Nice, but is that not a 67-69 shifter handle?

Also, there's no certificate of occupancy.

wmachine

Real? As in one of the 54? I don't think so.

Oldsmaniac

Are you a doubting what was said in the ad? If it is writtin it must be true! lol I am seeing a chrome molding on the trunk lid. Would this be correct on an F-85?

wmachine

Deck lid molding is the same on all '66 442s.

But that is not one of the 54 factory W30s (would like to see what the paperwork really says).
And there were 25 Club Coupes, not 5.
And the color is Sierra Mist not "Bright Gold".
And it does not have power brakes.

Oldsmaniac

I was thinking since its a 442 on the F-85 platform with no side trim that there would not be any wide trim on the trunklid either. Thanks for the info!

66trakpak

if this is the car im thinking of it is not a true w30. it comes from n carolina previously from vt. once owned by jim gerelli.current owner is a widow. beautiful car though.

Run to Rund

It does not have a numbered shroud like the factory 54 cars. It has a late Track Pack shroud.

Giftman23

Hop in the BUYER BEWARE line forming at the rear...

http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/...s/1037943.html

This is my former 68 post-coupe (also previosuly owned by vette442). When I sold the car last August it was a factory 3 speed car....with fresh paint.

http://www.highoctaneauto.com/newpage49.htm

Often thought of the W31 clone route but it was so original and unmolested I decided against it. Apparently, someone has "transformed" it....wonder what it will go for on the block (or be advertised as...)

aliensatemybuick

Bob, you gotta stop eating those sour grapes.

aliensatemybuick

I hear there's an Oldsmobile law-, scuse me, laundromat in NC...where 442s go to get laundered, of course.

aliensatemybuick

wmachine challenged me to find the smoking gun, so after careful re-reading of the ad, I noted it was built in "July, 2nd week" or somesuch. Weren;t all factory cars build during the first 3-4 weeks in June?

Ok, I'm done. For now.

citcapp

How do you expose scammers like this to the people who will sucker to that add? This kind of stuff is just plain wrong.

stan 65 cutlass

sounds convincincing? call his bluff

oldss72

Wow, terrible!

oldsbuilder

It might not be "real", but it sure is pretty.

Run to Rund

I discussed the car with a Mecum representative via several emails. It is now advertised as a Track Pack car. It is a very nice car and should sell nicely as what it is. I don't think it is "not-real" because it is a Track Pack car; all the race cars at the NHRA Nationals in 66 were also conversions, made before the Track Pack, single part number, was offered through the parts dept. I just can't agree with someone stating something is factory built when it was not. It may not be "less" interesting, but it is different. In the same way, the L69 Tri Carb conversion pkg. was available through parts as 397615. To me, the easy availability of these conversion kits was very interesting and almost unique with muscle cars. Similarly, my re-creation of the Rund Oldsmobile's 66 has no parts from the original, long-lost car. However, the original owner/driver has driven and raced it and feels it captures the spirit of his original car that he traded in 1970 for his next race car, a 70 F85. Is my re-creationb a "real" W30? It was made up from about 12 parts cars, and has my first shroud on it. Neither it nor the original was a factory built W30. Maybe both cars are simply holograms, not real cars. Back in the 1970s when I bought #13 and #24 factory cars, they were generally considered to be worn out, tired, cheap looking used cars from a mid-range luxury car company. I thought I was the only person who considered them special.

Ranzan

I think Joe that your car captures the era... I wish there were more around really

myself I would love to have a 66 W-30.... real or not they are awesome cars

I hate people passing off stuff but as most they are just in it for the money not the History of the cars

Run to Rund

I couldn't afford it at today's prices. Fortunately, my passion for the 66 W30 began in 1966 and parts hoarding began in 1972, so I got stuff before the prices went wild. Unfortunately for history and the cars, the big money guys usually don't have the passion, and the cars change hands many times after restoration. No wonder, as many restorers build generic tractor engines for them, and then the buyers wonder why the cars had the reputation for being fast, but theirs is boring. The 67 Olds 442 ads called it the "anti-boredom machine" and they can be!

442garage

Joe, I absolutely am in agreement about the "anti-boredom machine" ad, I know mine certainly is! I personally have no problem with your recreation of a icon that most people of a certain age have never heard of, and if they had, it wouldn't have any particular significance. On a personal level, I could probably recreate a 1966 drag pak car, I have the contacts, and the parts to do so, but I probably won't, unless I were to do so for my own enjoyment, and not with the intent to enrich my bank account by selling the car to some unsuspecting, uninformed individual, who has more more money than sense.

Run to Rund

I thnk it would be really cool if several of the competing cars (or faithful re-creations) from the 1966 Nationals would appear together, such as at an Olds Club Nationals. The closest so far will be this July if I scrape up enough $ to go to Massachusetts and meet up with Sam Murray and his 1967 Brainbeau re-creation, and see Loyed Woodland's original 66 which is apart. There were at least a dozen 66s at that NHRA event:
Information taken from National Dragster, Sept. 2, 1966

1966 Olds in “Stock Car Entries”

633 Dickens Racing Team Kenneth Burger Cincinnati, Ohio
635 Loyd Stackhouse Bob Stackhouse Youngstown, Ohio
701 Re/Action II Rick Nutt Kokomo, Ind.
750 Hale Shot Gene Dunlop Carrollton, Ohio
794 Bob McLaughlin Ronnie Broadhead Porterville, Calif
816 Rectifier #2 Thomas Blankenship Lansing, Mich.
932 Holiday Olds Jim Lutz Minneapolis, Minn.
1006 Rund Motor Sales John Molnar Southgate, Mich.
1016 Key Olds Richard Haas Howell, Mich.
1031 Brainbeau Olds Loyed Woodland Braintree, Mass.
1041 The Holiday Olds Greg Fleury & Jim Mann Coon Rapids, Minn.
1190 Chesrown Oldsmobile Ronald L. Garey Newark, Ohio

wmachine

I think we're getting caught up in terminology here. Again. The word real meaning different things to different people. Joe, I understand and appreciate your viewpoint that if you put a car together with "X" specific parts, it is essentially an "X" car. It looks like it and performs like it. And there is nothing wrong with putting cars together like that and enjoying them.
But there is one unavoidably big distinction: A car that is originally an "X" car *does* commands great interest and more money. And that is just about universally true of any antique.
Sure the word "real" is lacking in this case, but I believe the intention was to identify it as being one of the genuine 54 factory cars. And it turns out it isn't. Maybe there is too much emphasis on the original. One thing for sure, "back in the day" there was *very* little concern in in originality and correctness. Modifying and altering your car "to taste" was the order of the day.
But it is because of the high values of the cars and the high interest in "originals" that keep the market full of dishonest lowlifes that lie about the origins of their cars, and flood the market with cars with bogus pedigrees all for their personal gain. They are a disgrace to the hobby and a disgrace as a person.

Run to Rund

I agree with your statements, Kurt. My anoyance comes from the ignorance of people who don't understand how things were back then, and how the 66 W30 was a unique project, sneaked through GM management, and in 3 parts: (1) 54 factory built cars so NHRA would accept them in Stock and so some would be out there racing (the Olds people asked dealers to try to "screen" potential buyers); (2) conversion parts given (I believe) to established race teams so all the 442s at Indy would have the best stuff in Olds attempt to beat the GTOs; (3) conversion parts individually available, and as Track Pack 230195, through parts dept. As you noted, no one in 1966 would think to ask if the Brainbeau or Rund car was real. Bogus coppa camaras [ ] and hemis have brought out the "clone" wars.

That said, I guess I have one real car and one unreal car. In the Feb 67 Cars magazine, the UFO on the Rund car's trunk lid was explained: Unreal Flying Oldsmobile.

agtw31

go to one of these auctions,the people bidding don't give a squat about originality.

these cars are nothing but another place for a rich guy to hide their money from the IRS.

WhatIf

Well, after being the one that started this thread, I have to say I'm glad I did! My original topic starter was "Real 1966 W-30 coming up at auction", and now we have determined that this was a Trak-Pak car, and the ad has been redone.

I'm amazed at the knowledge on this website. I shudder to think of how often people are taken by counterfeited or misrepresented cars at auction. And of course, when I say "taken", I mean they are paying huge sums of money for what they thought was an authentic car, and it turns out to be a counterfeit (or misrepresented). It really seems like the guys with all the money don't ever care what they buy. They don't spend any time on the web, don't belong to any forums, and they ask no questions, other than "how much", and "how will buying this car make my jealous?" (bragging rights).

I think with the recent market collapse of the past couple years, we'll see more and more examples where people will try to pass off a counterfeit as an authentic. It means the difference between $100,000 and $25,000, so they will stop at nothing.

Stay in touch with websites like this one, that have many well-informed people that know these rare cars in and out, and sometimes the actual history of a particular car!

aliensatemybuick

Just watched the auction coverage on TV, which I had TIVOd so I could scan through. Not sure what they said at the actual event, but the "color commentators" on TV refered to it as an "original" and "early" W30 car, one of 54 made. It sold for $110K.

Indy_68_S

I saw the car in person on Friday. Very nice. Unfortunately it was all closed up so I couldn't check out the innards....

aliensatemybuick

Indy, that doesn't surprise me. Check out the dialog below I had with a B-J rep late last year about a different car, especially the text I've highlighted in bold. Not to question the "bidness model" of these auction houses, but hey, just bid on the car...don't worry about how it runs and drives...its SHINEY!

***********

From: scott fettner [mailto:scottfettner@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:34 AM
To: lbarosky@barrett-jackson.com
Subject: RE: duPontREGISTRY.com Retail Buyer 1967 OLDSMOBILE CUTLASS CONVERTIBLE

Luke,

I have to wonder how ANYONE would bid on a car without being able to evaluate it fully, which from what you said below isn't going to be possible? Your title is "Consignment Liason", which I would think means you could LIASE with the seller to arrange for a proper examination for an interested party! I don't understand how you can expect people can buy cars under such circumstances (but I guess you know they will).

-Scott

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: duPontREGISTRY.com Retail Buyer 1967 OLDSMOBILE CUTLASS CONVERTIBLE
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 08:15:19 -0700
From: lbarosky@barrett-jackson.com
To: scottfettner@hotmail.com

Hey Scott,

I absolutely agree with how things appear on Dupont and wish it was more straight forward with how it is being sold. You would not be able to have the car evaluated prior to the auction, but there is no reason why you could not have someone go and look at the car for you. Keep in mind that due to the event setup, your appraiser will not be able to get a good, if any, mechanical inspection. Also, if the consignor is not around, they will also not be able to get a good inspection of the interior. If you do send an inspector to evaluate the car and decide you want to bid on the car, you can register as an absentee bidder to bid over the phone or internet. Please let me know if there is any other questions I can answer for your.

Best regards,

Luke Barosky
Consignment Liaison
P: 480-421-6694
F: 480-355-3604, attn. Luke
E: LBarosky@barrett-jackson.com

Blk71SX

brings to mind an old saying we have in the south about buying a pig in a poke.

z11375ss

I DVRed the coverage of Mecum. They had a 71 442 with W-30 on the side. Looked nice. The announcer said the car had a 383 chevy small block in it with a 700 R4. I almost puked.

Indy_68_S

Well, in this case it just have been that the owner wasn't around. It was in an area with other higher end cars lined up for the next day's auction. Most had hoods/trunks open for inspection, but a few didn't (like this one) & it didn't have the piles-o-documents visible like others. This one did have the driver window down & I poked my head in, but didn't touch it.

Side note....If I had a high 5 figure collector car, there's no way I'd just leave it sitting all opened up without me around. I saw many like this. I wouldn't worry about it going anywhere, just some idiot hopping in with his wallet chain banging everywhere and flipping every switch / turning every ****.....

Not quite as bad as you see at the yearly Auto-Show, but you get the picture...

Jimi2much

I'm going to attempt to pull a 3year old thread into relativity of today.
First , I had a discussion with Lee Pearl about his upcoming sale @ Russo
Steele the 21st or 22nd of next month . What an amazing man. He was also the perfect man/family to preserve this car . I thought after reading about the history and the multi year Level 1 restore , I had a good idea about the car . Not even close . Museum quality is a completely inadequate way to describe this car . I closed our conversation by saying that I would be calling several of my infinity funded friends to let them know this would be " THE ONE " to own .
Second : Out of outer space. I get a PM from " fatcat " on this forum .
" fatcat " has zero posts here. Now this is where this ties into this thread , and it leads to " Run to Rund "'s post from 3 years ago. March 26th 2010.R to R listed the 1966 NHRA Nationals entry list . #1041 , Fleury Mann , Conquistador II ,,, driven by our one and only " fatcat ". This car , and this driver was a car I raced against 10 times each summer for 2 years. I think it would be a gas to hear exactly what SS/E was like at the Nationals in 1966. The other Minneapolis driver was # 932 , another W-30 Drag-Pac Cutlass . Driven by Jim Lutz. Of course , this was to become the 442Much altered wheelbase " Blown " match race car.
Jim Lutz's son actually worked for me in the Midas Muffler business in the early 1990's... This is a really interwoven world.
Now I own a one owner previous to me 1967 Olds Cutlass 442...
It is in a body off frame resto in the middle of Kansas . I know the car will be very cool , and authentic , and totally refreshed when I get it back..
Now , I'm wishing I was in the process of building a 66 or 67 W-30 drag-pac replicar ??? Any way I slice this , I have had a chance to communicate with some of the neatest people in this hobby in the last week!!!!! Have a great weekend , Jimi.

Dave Siltman

For half the money, one could have bought the '66 L-69 (also converted and advertised as a W-30) that sold this year. That car was an older restoration with bona-fide race history and had the real shroud from original W-30 car #9. I came close to buying the car, about a year or so ago, before the wheel/tire change and before the lettering was applied. The real reason I didn't was because I own a race car from the dealership that my family and I have been associated with for a looooooooooong time. My car has many documents and original sales paperwork. I just felt that the '66 would have been second fiddle to my '69 W-31. Is my car as important and valuable as that car? It is to me and in reality, that's all that matters to me. I also have a '72 that is oh so close to finishing a frame-off restoration. Since my competitive racing days are behind me, I decided to stay with what I already have and enjoy sharing my story associated with my W-31. Joe D. most likely knows the car I am referring to, and would probably agree with my assessment of that car (the one for $55K) and the one this thread is referring to ($110K). And to Joe, I applaud you for your desire and devotion to your Run to Rund car. You represent the car in a truthful manner, and I, for one, am impressed with it's performance which is evident in the ETs. You may remember we talked at the York show a number of years ago, and I am amazed at your knowledge and the homework you have done on these cars.

Run to Rund

Thanks. Yes, I remember you and your car, a very fine example of 60s-70s racing with dealership involvement. We met at York 2009; my car was next to one of Wally Booth's (Gremlin). Interestingly, the original Rund driver knows Wally and they spent a few minutes talking on my cell phone.

Jimi2much

Dave Siltman , you absolutely hit this on the head. I believe you are referring to Lot # F266 from the Mecum Indy auction. I would have been lined up to bid on that car. 55,000 , was a steal. Really , replicas come close to that , and if a person builds one that would be an opening budget to put one together , IF you could find all of the parts.... I wish that car was in my garage.... Anyway , it is not . That car was a real Canadian Documented car.
My problem is that I just do not travel the country to evaluate and buy , WHEN I think something like this is going to come up. The above car was listed on ebay for months before the sale , and I did NOT call the broker.
The owner listed the car to have a value of 80 - 100 K . He NEVER would have accepted a 55 K offer on this car. GGGRRRRRRRRR.
So since I do NOT have Autumn Bronze and Fawn bench seat car . Now if I want one I have to either find another one ,, or build one myself. And , because I live in a suburb of Phoenix , I will have to get permission to build a replica of the Conquistador II , IF , I can get get permission from the
" fatcat " on his forum. I'm sure Run to Rund would love to see another Drag -Pac car show up at the Pavillions some Saturday night.
Anyway , just another 108 degree day in Phoenix today. Nice to hear from 2 vintage members from the old SS/E wars of 66 - 69...
THX , Jimi

Run to Rund

The 66 W30s ran in C/S in 1966. For 67, NHRA required 500 units be factory built, so they went into SS/E, with SS being a new class for 67. You might talk with Curt Anderson; he is familiar with some of the players and lives in MN.

Chesrown 67 OAI

Joe -- since this thread has been "re-born" -- I wanted to tell you that i had never seen that list before and was very surprised to see that Bob Stackhouse had a C/Stocker at Indy in 66. You list him as Stackhouse Olds in Youngstown OH -- which is quite corrrect -- but the irony of it was that Stackhouse formerly owned Stackhouse Olds right here in good old Dover, Ohio where i live. I even was in jr high with Bobby Stackhouse - son of the owner. He then sold the dealership in Dover and bought the Olds dealership in Youngstown. Small world -- eh? But i do just happen to remember the last car on your list ---- pic attached!!

fatcat

In 66 the Conquistador was owned by Holiday Olds in Minneapolis. The team that ran the car were Greg Fleury and Jim Mann. Jim was hired by Holiday as a mechanic and I think his primary job was to prepare the car for the 66 season. The car was not of course an original W-30 as it was built during the winter of 65/66 at the dealership. I had no involvement with the car till Mann and I bought it in Nov ? of 66. I did go with them to a points meet in Omaha in the spring of 66. The W-30 package either wasn't yet released or was not yet legal, but the car did have the W-30 cam in it. Remember we fired it on the trailer while at a car wash to get the engine warm so the idle would be less noticeable while going through tech.

The main driving source behind the car was a super salesman, Jim Anderson, and when the dealership wanted to bale on the car he arranged for Mann and I to buy it at a bargain basement price, even though the local Buick guru had offered quite a bit more. Jim and I ran the car briefly but he split for Florida and went to work for Bo Laws. I joined up with two close friends, Greg Smith and Duane Johnson and we ran the car in SS/E till the end of the 68 season.

Lutz drove the funny car, I didn't know he ran a 66 car in stock at the 66 nats.

Jimi2much

I have to apologize for wanting to see and hear a few FatCat pieces of information here on the forum. I'm sure I prodded , but man , look at the stance of that Killer Black W-30 SS/E .
My dead stock 67 442 is going to have a hard time getting my heart pounding , when I could potentially build a tribute to this car. Which is why
my car will probably be sold @ Barrett - Jackson Jan. of 2014.

My other point is that I would like to see a few of the more senior members here ( there are a lot of them ) be valued for their experience .
If younger members do not see the cars , listen to the stories , and feel the essence of that experience.... Well , it just dies.
I thought I could drive over to Newport Beach to watch Lee Pearls magical gold W-30 convert go through the sale process , but I will be out of the country. If any Olds lovers are in the So-Cal area the weekend of June 21 - 22. Take the time hit the Russo - Steele auction , and just take it in. There are probably less than 5 totally honest , born with , done to the 99.9 level W-30 Converts in the world . If this goes to a private collector , we may never see this car again. That weekend you can talk to the owner + restorer. Double winner...
My .02 cents worth.. Thanks to all who carry the torch. The cars are cool,
the people are even better.
THX, JIMI