Got a question on points. I am familiar with installing and setting them up.

I am seeking advice from those who have experience with different brands/quality.

Is it worth it for pay $40 for a set of Echlins vs $8 for a cheap set? The main difference I see between the two is rubbing block material. But is there a performance difference when using a quality set? Or if they are both brand new and gapped correctly, is there no difference other than how long they will last?

Thanks.

 

Spend a few extra dollars and convert to the "Pertronics" set up.
Then you will never have to worry about the points at all.
The set up is complete stock looking.

Gene

 

You will likely find the rubbing block material on the cheap set wears faster and would require more frequent adjustment.

On another note, I've seen a lot more threads about folks having trouble with a Pertronics unit then someone having trouble with points.

 

That could very well be the case.

Can't offer any more advice .....

It's actually been @ 10 years since I was in the market for a set of points.

And that car was converted to an HEI not long after I bought it ... & it was sold a couple of years ago.

Man .....

$40 for a good set of points.

I remember when that would get you a new distributor.

 

I am not an electronic ignition-phobe, they have their place, but unless you are averse to tuning your car from time to time, and unless you need to rev the snot out of it, there is no good reason to convert it. I have points in one of my cars, and it runs 100% smooth and never gives me a hint of a problem. They were standard on cars because it's all that was available, and the roads weren't littered with cars with points that mysteriously failed. I once had a full-sized big block car that hadn't had the points looked at in probably 50k miles. It still ran, poorly, but it ran. Did a quick roadside gap on a whim, no other attention, and it picked up 100 horsepower...on a worn out 10 year-old set. My current points car has a $12 set from Autozone, and they are lasting just fine. I check the dwell once in a while with a $10 meter and adjust as necessary. I say go with the cheap ones and buy a couple sets to last forever.

 

I replaced the Delco points in my '71 455 with an Echlin set from Napa. The difference in quality was noticeable too. The Delco points worked fine, but were cheaply constructed. The Echlin points felt tighter, and had a better quality spring. My preference is to buy the best parts I can afford and do the job right.

 

To actually answer your question, performance should be exactly the same, you will probably have to adjust them more often, but there is a chance that because of lower quality materials and poorer manufacturing tolerances the spring might be weaker and they might not be as smooth at high RPMS. But then again, they might be fine.

$40 for a set of points is just scary. I'd buy the cheap ones and keep an eye out for old sets new-in-the-box at flea markets.

- Eric

 

X2 on finding NOS Delco-Remy sets. They were very high quality stuff back then, esp the ones that came in sealed foil boxes. D-R contracted their points ignition stuff out to Wells in later years and they were "adequate" but nowhere near what they had been.

For that matter about any old stock ignition stuff will be pretty good, and that includes Echlin, Sorenson, Filko and Standard/Blue Streak. Even Western Auto's house brand were very good and I think Filko made those.

Look for a set with higher spring tension. Those are more resistant to point "bounce". The tradeoff is the rub block may wear a little quicker and require more frequent adjustment.

Knock on wood, I've had no trouble with either a Pertronix or a Mallory Unilite ignition. I thought the Unilite had failed once but turned out to be the Accel coil.

 

Echlin is a top brand. I wouldn't be worried about installing those although that $40 price is a lot more than I used to sell them at. It's been awhile so maybe I'm just out of touch lately.
I've also used Accel points and I would steer away from their set with the heavy springs. Noticeable difference in wear on the rubbing block. Lasted about half as long as the regular set.
As stated earlier you're not going to see any major difference no matter what brand you use. They just aren't a high tech part to worry about. As long as the contacts are square to each other and in good condition, no pitting, they'll last a long time. I also don't like the sets that just use the spring pressure to retain the condenser wires. I prefer to have the screw to cinch it down.
I've had Pertronix in two vehicles without a problem. Just make sure it's getting a full 12v if you go that route. I have seen a set fail in a 65 T-Bird I was working on. Pertronix quickly replaced the bad module and even told me how to test it to check the module. They have great customer service. Of course none of that matters if you're stuck on the side of the road with a broken car.

 

I've used Standard Ignition Products Forever. If you want some performance get a set for a Vette.

 

I'd buy a better brand. Cheap sets tend to have rubbing block wear much faster than better sets, GM brands are not made in this country, so it is a crap shoot. I have changed all the old cars I have owned over the past 20 or so years to Pertronix and had zero problems. My 70 Bonneville has over 80,000 miles on the Pertronix and it runs the same as the day I installed it. My 72 Cutlass had a Pertronix installed when I bought it in 2006 and I have had no problems.

Most problems with Pertronix come from not following the instructions. All my experience comes with Ignitor I and II. I have never used the Ignitor III. I know on the I & II, the instructions say to remove the distributor and measure the play in the distributor gear, and shim it to specs. That is not difficult to do, and all the shims are provided. Too much play in the gear, will let the shaft rise up as rpms increase and make the gap too large to trigger the spark and the car will miss, cut out or shut off. I don't know if that is still required on the latest Pertronix units, but it was critical on the earlier units.

So a couple of my Pertronix units are about 20 years old and they still work perfectly, so I have had no reason to buy new ones. You will not gain any performance with Pertronix or HEI, but you will have a car that runs like it has just had a tune up with correctly adjusted points, all the time, rain or shine, with no adjustments required.

 

Blue Streak was a good brand years ago but I don't know if they even make them anymore. I have never seen a thread about somebody breaking down with Pertronix. $40.00 is crazy for a set of points. Check Rockauto and see what they have. They won't have Echlin since that is a NAPA brand. As oldcutlass mentioned, Standard is a good brand and has been around forever. Points and Pertronix is 6 of one and half dozen of another. I just happen to like Pertronix.

 

Thanks for all the input guys. I figured it should be about the same performance wise, being it is nothing more than a mechanical breaker. I didn't see the point in buying a expensive set either.

$40 is insane, even the guy at Napa when I called asked if I was sitting down before telling me the price.

 

In the 1970s I used Delco D112P for higher rpm than the D106P. Mallory used a lighter arm for more rpm. Accel went to a very heavy spring that caused fast rubbing block wear; they also offer a lower rpm set with a somewhat lighter spring (which I would recommend). Standard is good too.

 

This engine rarely sees over 3000 - 3500 rpm, so I am not too worried about the spring tension.

This reminds me of something else I've been considering. Has anyone ever changed just the advance weight springs without changing the weights or bushing? I would just like to run more initial timing without the total getting too high. What would be the effect of using the stock advance stop bushing with heaver springs vs using the bushing provided in the kit?

 

Lighter springs is a different concept than more initial. Lighter springs allow advance to come on more quickly, but don't necessarily change your total. What is your timing set at currently? FWIW, I'm shooting for 15 degrees initial, 35 degrees total. This should be ideal under most circumstances. If your centrifugal advance allows for 20 degrees, then setting initial at 15 and using lighter springs is probably a good plan. The problem with very light springs is that they sometimes allow centrifugal advance to come on too early, such as at idle. It takes a lot of experimentation once you start messing with it to get it just right. I'm still in-process with it.

 

I was actually thinking about using heavier springs, not lighter, to make the mechanical advance come in later, allowing a higher initial timing. This makes sense to me unless I am misunderstanding something.

I am shooting for a similar setup to yours, I'd like to run 14-16° initial without the mechanical coming in at too low of an rpm causing pinging under load.

I guess what I am thinking is if I used heavy springs, the advance curve may end well beyond where I rev my engine too, which would be ok, so long as the mechanical advance + initial timing never exceeded 30-35° in the rpm range the engine operates in. If that makes any sense...

 

I would plot it and see what its actually doing prior to changing anything. Most often times a good mix is 1 light and 1 heavy spring.

 

Depending on when it's "pinging under load", this might have something to do with vacuum advance. How much of that are you getting? I limited mine to only 10 degrees. When you're cruising at higher RPM, the total including vacuum will go much higher than ~35. If the pinging you're talking about happens when you're cruising along and then you suddenly dip into the throttle, there's a good chance this is your problem.

I'd make sure you're happy with your mechanical curve, i.e. make sure you're getting enough so that your initial can be reasonable, and then set total to ~35, and then make sure that you're not getting more than about 10-12 degrees vacuum. (take a reading of your initial with the vacuum unplugged, and then take another reading plugging the vacuum advance into manifold vacuum...I don't recommend using ported vacuum, ported defeats the performance advantage IMO) It's easy to modify even a stock vacuum canister by making a restrictor plate. I finally did reach my timing goals, and the biggest mistake I made was to go too conservative on the springs. The answer for me was to use the LIGHTEST springs. It seems to me that the bigger risk is getting too much TOTAL advance, not getting it too soon, within reason of course.

 

It shouldn't be.

When you step on the gas while cruising, the vacuum drops immediately (you can verify this if you have a vacuum gauge on your dash), and the vacuum advance pot on the distributor immediately retards the vacuum.
If you floor it, the vacuum goes to zero, and the vacuum advance is adding no advance at all.

- Eric

 

Ported vacuum is for idle so as not to advance the timing. As soon your off idle the vacuum comes on and advances. You don't want full vacuum at idle.
Just as MDchanic said, as soon as you dip the throttle the vacuum goes down, and at WOT there is none and slowly comes back as you gain in the rpm.
So if you set you timing w/full vacuum at idle, say 15* as soon as you pull the vacuum off, that number may go to retard, depending on much timing is in the vacuum pod. You set your timing at 900 rpm, run it up to 2000/2500 and see what the mechanical is and then the vacuum for total. JMO......

Gene

 

You're right, the vacuum drops immediately. But if the distributor has been recurved to provide a lot of advance early, and the vacuum advance hasn't been restricted to a reasonable level, under certain circumstances it's possible for detonation to occur before the vacuum advance is able to pull off fully. That's all I was saying. If the question is, limit centrifugal advance or limit vacuum advance, I'd err on the side of limiting vacuum advance and keep as much centrifugal as early as possible, within reason. JMO.

And I use manifold vacuum on my vacuum advance, it runs better for me. It's my impression that ported was an emissions-era development.

 

I can't argue with that - no changes in this system are instantaneous.

I am not going to go there.

This has been discussed before, and vehemently at that.

There are definitely cases of ported vacuum in stock applications going back to the 1940s, and cases ported vacuum being used in later years to improve emissions.

Bottom line: try both and do whatever your engine likes best.

- Eric

 

I have springs and bushing on the way from Summit Racing. It will be time to play with it soon! I'll see what it is doing currently first, like you say.

 

Yes, the ported vs timed @ idle argument has gone on and will go on way into the future. There are advantages and disadvantages to both. Be advised that it only effects the idle, once you get off the idle circuit its all the same, it has nothing to do with performance, period!

Some engines like it and some don't! I would just experiment. The A/F mixtures and idle speed will have to be tweeked with for each.

 

Rock auto has the Standard point set with the cam wiper/lubricator. I believe this is the Blue streak version that I used on all my point ignition vehicles back in the late 60s and 70s. Back then, IMHO, they were the best ignition products available. Their ignition coils had a unique way to attach the coil wire, but I don't think those are still available.