dc2x4drvr

http://dallas.craigslist.org/ftw/cto/4278341130.html

W29 in the VIN?

joe_padavano

The seller is an idiot.

1) There is no way the VIN could be traced to a "W29" option in 1972 unless the car was a W-30

2) There was never a 442 built on the notchback Supreme body.

mmurphy77

One of none.

Allan R

Hmm, I read that ad and *interpreted* it this way: This car is a Cutlass that I think is a W29. I don't really know because I'm brain dead on checking this out before posting. I don't really know what W30 options are either, but have fun dissing me about the mistakes I've made.

X2 on your comments. All I see here is a black Cutlass Supreme with a few options any of the 72 lineup could get.

Joe, just a point of clarification. I understand your comment, but it could also be interpreted differently by others. I believe you meant to say 2 separte things; a) No 1972 VIN or cowl tag will prove a 442 W29 build, b) The only 1972 442 that can be identified by the VIN is the W30 with an X in the VIN. W29 was a separate option from W30

Koda

Exactly. One of the things I've learned is that you look dumber by pretending to know something when you don't. You either know something, and you can say it, or you don't, and you either keep silent, say "I don't know, but I think it's X and I could be wrong" or you BS.

One of my favorites is putting bottom brake lights into the bumper on the non-Supreme 67s. The rare reverse light delete option I was told.

Vader

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.
Abraham Lincoln

mmurphy77

My favorite classic lines that YOU KNOW are leading to a blatant lie are "...as far as I can tell..." or "...to the best of my knowledge...". When I read that I think, 'here comes an attempt to bullshit me.' The other thing that drives me crazy is how many people think it was a common for the manufacturer to just install any engine or parts they wanted. They use terms like 'out the back door' or 'parts shortage' or 'experimental'. Those things never (or rarely if ever in the case of extraneous stuff) happened. It didn't work that way, sorry.

joe_padavano

Allan,

No, I meant to say exactly what I did say.

In 1972, the W-29 was mandatory to get the W-30 option, unless, of course, it's one of the handful of W-30 H/Os from that year. Any 1972 442 with an "X" engine code is DEFINITELY a W-29 (which was simply the option for the 442 appearance and handling package in 1972). These are the only "W-29" cars where that can be proven from the VIN. Obviously other true 442s were made in 1972 without the W-30 engine code, but these cannot be proven to be "W-29" cars from the VIN.

Ironically, the only Cutlass Supreme hardtops with an "X" engine code in the VIN were a handful of 1972 H/Os, which definitely were NOT "W-29" cars.

redoldsman

The guy is full of crap but it does look like a pretty nice car. I don't think he will ever get that price unless the greater fool comes along and believes his bs.

Koda

Wasn't him.

Vader

whoever...............

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt . -- George Eliot
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.-- Abraham Lincoln (also attr. Confucius)
It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.-- Mark Twain (1835-1910)
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding. -- Bible, 'Proverbs' 17:28.
Frank "I got nothing to say" Holloway

hullinger

A game my family and I play when breaking open fortune cookies is to add the phrase "in bed" after each quote. I don't think Abe Lincoln and the others had this in mind but it sure is funny to read these quotes that way.

Allan R

HUH??? I think you should check the ordering guide - then carefully read what W30 and W29 options were. I also have the dealer showroom guide that I use for documentation. W30 included some of the W29 features such as FE2 suspension and grills but that's about it. Show me ANY W30 broadcast card that has W29 in the COPO/SO Box 12 and I'll believe you. If anyone does have a broadcast card from a W30 it will show W30 in the COPO/SO box.

The W29 was a SEPARATE option for 72, and so was W30. I'd love to see a dealer order showing both the W29 AND W30 boxes checked. And dealers wouldn't do that because they were 2 separate option packages that would not get factory approval.

If things happened the way you suggest, the assembly line would have to process deletes/upgrades on the available (5) W29 engines, special paint and stripes, manual brakes, exhaust, hood, rear bumpers, cooling system, differential carrier etc. It makes absolutely no sense to order up a W29 and do this. It is FAR more believable that a W30 would be ordered and built to meet base W30 specs, then modify build sheet as needed for options were requested by the dealer/customer. (eg: AC/AT/PB etc)

That's simply the most outrageous statement I've ever seen you make. Any 1972 442 with an X code engine is automatically and DEFINITELY a W30. A W29 is not even close to being a W30.

Your logic on this is uncharacteristically befuddling.

Keegan

Enter the noob kid.
The 442 was NEVER made in the supreme body style? (I'm assuming that's called the notch back, like mine). I see a ton of "442"s in that style, so that must mean they're clones in a sense? Sorry, still learning. I love the look of the notch back more than the slope back, but that's just me.

Koda

Keegan, it was back in the 70s, so you COULD do a lot of neat and funny stuff, but, the 442 was either a hardtop or post body S (fastback) body, or a convertible Supreme (notchback) body. There was no S convertible body. The idea was that the notchback and the Supreme trim level was higher, and thus, less performance and more old people luxury oriented, so the fast and loud guys got S bodies.

However, there were some things you could do. Engines could be gotten separately, and the Cutlass SX was almost a 442, and I don't know if the W-32 (442 light option), I think, was available on the Supreme body.

The SX convertible and the 442 convertible were, other than badging and some cams and other tuning, very close to being the same thing.

Others more knowledgeable will correct and add to what I said.

Texas442

While on this topic, i've never seen the 1972 ordering guide. What was the exact wording next to the w29 option?

costpenn

X2 - wish I myself could always remember this advice.

kjr442

I would like to see that too Allan.

joe_padavano

Let's set aside the 1972 H/Os. For the purpose of this discussion, I'm only talking about 1972 442s.

EVERY SINGLE 1972 442 was a W-29. By definition, the W-29 was the "442 Sport/Handling Package". Here is Page 37 from the 1972 full line brochure:



For a car to be a 1972 442, it HAD to be a "W-29".

For the 1972 model year, the W-30 package was ONLY OFFERED on 442s (again, except for the handful of 1972 H/Os that came with the W-30 engine). You could not buy a W-30 that was not a 442 or a H/O, therefore all 1972 W-30s were also either 442s or H/Os. All 1972 442s were W-29 packages, ergo every 1972 W-30 (except the H/Os) was also a W-29. Not all W-29s were W-30s, obviously, which is not what I said or implied.

There's absolutely nothing befuddling about this.

joe_padavano

Correct.

A clone is a duplicate of something that already exists. A 442 notchback doesn't exist in nature, so these aren't clones. The street rod world calls fabricated cars that were never built by the factory "phantoms", which is probably a better term in my opinion.

wmachine

No reason you can't see for yourself. It is here and has been here:
http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/cgi-b...aldisplayed=50

Wild About Cars. http://wildaboutcars.com. An information supersource, especially Oldsmobile. More Olds content than anywhere else on the internet and continuing to grow.
You'll find Chassis Service Manuals, Product Information Manuals (AKA Assembly Manuals), Inspector's Manuals, and other documents that will contain this and much much more.
Dealer Brochures, magazine ads and articles, and the Automotive History Preservation Society library growing daily.
Free to join, free to learn.

69ishHoliday

The BS that once said makes me want to run away is when someone says; "Well, I'll be honest with you". I sometimes reply "Oh, well don't compromise your position" or "what have you been up to now?".

Allan R

Well that is indeed interesting depending on which print you look at. The full page brochure calls it Sport/Handling. The SPECS (used for ordering) calls it the APPEARANCE/handling package, and so does the Dealer showroom ordering guide. IMO the SPECS and Dealer guide are better references than what you're saying what you accept as 'by definition' The text of the promo literature simply says this is designed to make the car appear more 'sporty'.

Yes, I have that brochure too and from what your comment it's obvious you've misunderstood the nature of the material.

1. 442 was an OPTION that could be applied to any of the 2 door Cutlass models in 72 (except 4257). We agree on that. But the brochure you're refering to makes it appear that 442 is still a model, which it's not. The layout of the text in the brochure simply states that a 442 OPTION package could be ordered as 2 different choices - appearance and handling, or performance.

2. 442 has 2 different application options. W29 and W30. THAT is where this is all going downhill. They are separate orders, not cumulative. If it was, the "optional engines" component would suggest that either W29 or W30 could be then have engines changed to any of those listed in the third slot.

3. We both know that each of the W29 and W30 has unique features that identify it in each of its appearance options and it makes absolutely no sense to argue this component.

4. The SPECS booklet clearly shows OPTION W29 and OPTION W30. As I mentioned earlier we both know that part of the option W29 (grilles and FE2 suspension/wheels) was a required feature of BOTH and as such it is clearly cross referenced. But for that purpose only. It's the same as reading the Standard features of each model level in the dealer guide. Using that as an analogy, a Cutlass has base elements of a Cutlass S and Cutlass Supreme. The Cutlass has base elements of the Cutlass Supreme. So ergo, using your logic a Cutlass Supreme must therefore be a Cutlass or Cutlass S before it can be upgraded to a Cutlass Supreme, which is obviously not the case.

joe_padavano

Nope, sorry Allan, but you've got it wrong. The W-29 RPO code WAS the 442 option, available on exactly FOUR Cutlass models, the Cutlass Holiday Coupe, the Cutlass S Sport Coupe, the Cutlass S Holiday Coupe, and the Supreme Convertible. The W-29 package included the 442 appearance items (grilles, exterior 442 emblems, and paint stripe) and the FE2 suspension, period. (Note that this is why the glovebox didn't get a 442 emblem in 1972) For the first time in the the history of the 442, the W-29 package had nothing to do with the engine and was available with ANY engine offered in those four Cutlass models. I personally owned a 1972 "W-29" with the VIN 3G87K..., which was a Cutlass S Holiday Coupe with the 350 4bbl single exhaust motor.

To recap, RPO W-29 was the 442 handling and appearance package (or sport and appearance package, depending on which marketing hype you're reading) which ONLY included the 442 exterior appearance items and the FE2 suspension. RPO W-30 was ONLY available on 442s (once again, ignoring the H/Os), thus only available on RPO W-29 cars.

Here's a Venn diagram that might help:

Keegan

Someone needs to make a chart or something. Break down the Cutlass into each of its "submodels" or packages or whatever and what they meant/contained. My head is exploding right now and I really want to learn all this!

joe_padavano

The breakdown of models is clearly called out in the Chassis Service Manual, Section 0. The standard equipment that came with each model, and the available options on each model, were detailed in the salesman's guide. Your car appears to be a 1971 model, so this thread really doesn't apply. The 1972 model year was a strange one for a couple of reasons. First, the new 1973 Cutlass styling was actually supposed to be introduced for the 1972 model year, but a GM strike delayed that intro a year. As a result, the 1971 cars were given a very cursory makeover (different grilles and tail lights) and called 1972 models. Engine and equipment choices were also limited, both due to the late redirection and due to ever-increasing EPA requirements. For example, there was no six cylinder engine available in the 1972 models (though it was brought back for 1973). 72 was also the first time the 442 was demoted to an option package since 1967 and it was the first time that the 442 option only included the appearance and suspension items. There was no special engine offered as part of the 442 option - you could get a 442 with a 350 2bbl single exhaust and TH350.

For the 1972 model year, this 442 option carried RPO (Regular Production Option) code W-29. Every single 442 built by the factory in the 1972 model year was, by definition, a W-29. All that meant was that they got the 442 grilles, emblems, and suspension. There was no way to get the grilles, emblems, and suspension without ordering a W-29. To bring this thread back on track, the car in question that started this whole thread is a Cutlass Supreme Holiday Coupe, which CANNOT be a "W-29", since Olds never built a 442 on the Supreme hardtop body.

There were seven possible engine codes used in 442s (RPO W-29) in the 1972 model year (the engine code is the fifth character of the VIN for that year):

VIN H 350 2bbl (L32) single exhaust (MT or AT)
VIN J 350 2bbl (L32) dual exhaust (RPO N10, MT or AT)
VIN K 350 4bbl (L34) single exhaust (MT or AT)
VIN M 350 4bbl (L34) dual exhaust (RPO N10, MT or AT)
VIN U 455 4bbl (L75) dual exhaust (AT only)
VIN V 455 4bbl (L75) dual exhaust (MT only)
VIN X 455 4bbl (L77) dual exhaust (RPO W-30, AT or MT)

Edit: Also note in the brochure that I posted above, the text says that there are three versions of the Rocket V8 available AND the W-30, making four all together. Those four are the L32, L34, L75, and L77 (W-30), as listed above.

vette442

Good summary Joe.

Looking at the side trim and headlight bezels, Keegan's car is a '72 with the '71 metal Supreme grilles installed.

wmachine

Not on the hardtop (in '72), but yes on the Cutlass Supreme Convertible in '72.
I know it is difficult to be exact.


This can be a bit more simplified:

Some basics
1.There are options that include other options. The included options are part of the main option and included in the price of the main option. The included options do not show up as line items on the window sticker.
2. There are mandatory options for certain options. They are required when the main option is ordered. They are not included in the price of the main option and are listed separately as line items on the window sticker.

That said, the '72 W30 includes the W29. There are other options that are also included and some that are mandatory.

joe_padavano

Yes, but I did reference the car that started this thread, which was a Supreme Holiday Coupe (to be exact )

And now I've edited the earlier post to correct this oversimplification.

joe_padavano

Thanks. You looked a lot more closely than I did.

joe_padavano

Edit.

My apologies, Kurt is correct. Now that I read the fine print on the order form, RPO W-30 does include W-29 for 1972. I've deleted my incorrect post.

http://books.google.com/books?id=2Hq...page&q&f=false

Allan R

With respects Joe, I don't agree, and it's apparent you and I both have strong but different points of view. RPO W29 was ONE option, RPO W30 was a separate option. It simply included some of the W29 features as you and I both noted. IMO Olds did a great dis-service to the community by not identifying the option of W29 with emblems (such as the W30, W31, W32) or having the VIN production sequence specific to 442 while staying within the model designations (eg 442 sequence start at 500001 based on known previous 442 production stats) It would have also been incredibly helpful to have the cowl tag stamped with the W29 or W30 alongside the TRM code. I fully realize that no one back then could realize the potential for discussion this would generate amongst Olds hobbyists.

Kurt, I don't want to misinterpret your post or twist any meanings. If I understand your comments, the W29 option is simply one choice of ordering the 72 442, and may include other factory available options for creature comfort and appearance (eg: OAI hood on 350 equipped cars, rallye pac, AC etc). The W30 is a second and separate choice to order a 72 442 option, and any other options required or desired would apply. Am I reading this correctly?

costpenn

Joe P., I don't know if you ever saw my thread about the differences between the 71's and 72's. I have been fascinated for a while about how the alternators on the 72 442's (W-29!!) went back to external reg., only to have all Cutlasses, not just 442's get internal reg. in '73. Was internal reg. alternator a standard feature of the 442 model in 69-71? It is interesting to me that it was never "talked up" in the promotional items of the day. What was the purpose/ benefit of putting it on the 442 's only?

wmachine

RPO W30 includes the W29. Period. The H/Os were RPO W46 which included L77, which was the W30 motor. The H/O did not include RPO W30. The X in the VIN is for the motor designation as you say, not the RPO code.

droptopron

joe_padavano

Agreed. See my retraction above, which I must have edited as you were composing this post.

Good point. I guess I didn't appreciate that.

joe_padavano

Again, no. Open the link I posted above. RPO W-29 was THE ONLY RPO code that got you 442 grilles and emblems. As Kurt correctly pointed out (and as backed up by the RPO information sheet I linked to above), RPO W30 INCLUDED RPO W29 (as well as RPO W25).

My original statement stands. ALL 1972 W-30 cars are ALSO W-29s, which simply means that they are 442s. There's no need for a separate "W-29 emblem". That's what the 442 emblems are. I could also say that all W-30s are N-10 cars, or W-25 cars, etc, etc.

Allan R

Exactly, so W-30 is the correct identifier of the W-30 442. As Kurt noted "There are mandatory options for certain options. They are required when the main option is ordered". I truly believe that means that when the MAIN option is W-30, BY INCLUSION, any and/or other required components are automatically subbed to complete the MAIN (W-30) option.

Your link proves nothing; it is simply a scanned copy of one page in the 1972 SPECS booklet that basically confirms all the information that I have previously stated is correct. BTW, check page 150 of your Resto guide for 442's and W-Machines and you'll see the W-29 called a RPO 'package' whereas the W-30 is called the W - Machine OPTION! Hence the OPTION W-30 includes some of the package items in the W-29

What a great example. No of course not - you'd call it a W-30 wouldn't you - because all those OTHER options that are required to make the car into a W-30 are part of the other RPO's that it needs. Similarly a W-29 442 equipped with an OAI hood and N-10 exhausts wouldn't be categorized with it's list of components either. That said, we've both agreed that the W-30 needs some of the W29 components for appearance and handling. Therefore it's no longer a W-29 that has extra parts - it becomes THE W-30 option! And by definition ALL W-Machine cars are 442's so they automatically get the badging and subcomponents to make that happen. Categorically we identify the car by it's badging. So a 1972 W-29 could correctly be called a 442, while the 1972 W-30 would be called a 442 W-30. NOT a W-29 with upgrades.

And yes, I guess you could start calling all W-30's W-25 cars except then you'd have to deal with this:




Gee, you don't think W29 badging VIN derivative or cowl tag ident would be helpful? I think it would have been very useful. Too bad it never happened. That's what lends itself to the types of discussions we have here. I think inherently we both understand the 1972 442 issue but you're stuck on every 442 being a W-29 and I'm not.

mmurphy77

Allan when you say (several times), "...OPTION W-30 includes some of the package items in the W-29...", what part(s) of the W-29 package are not present when the W-30 is ordered? Aren't all W-30 cars (with the exception of the aforementioned H/Os) simply 442s with the W-30 engine?

Allan R

Mike,
No, they are not. There are many variations that could be called into play for discussion but I'm only dealing with the basics here.

The W-30 got these items from the W-29 package:
- grills & 442 badging
- FE2 suspension
- delete body side moldings and rocker trim.

The W-29 retained:
- metal hood with blacked out louvers and Oldsmobile script on the front right,
- 350 engines (2bbl & 4bbl) majority of production,
- 3 thin body stripes, special hood outline stripes,
- single exhaust (majority of production)

The rest of the W-30 option automatically gave it
- L77 engine,
- W25 hood and underhood components,
- cutout bumper,
- dual exhaust with trumpet tips,
- special paint (OAI hood/wide body stripe/W30 emblems),
- HD cooling,
- manual front disc/rear drum brakes (due to L77),
- sport mirrors,
- G80 anti spin rear axle with 3.42:1 GR.
- G70/14 wide oval lettered tires
- not available with AC.

The W-29 was basically a car designed to look and handle well. The W-30 was designed for performance. I suppose you could argue that a U code W-29 would perform well too, but it still wouldn't match or be a W-30. It's NOT like in 71 when your car was built.