Carshinebob

Hi everyone. Here's a little essay I wrote four years ago and then I didn't post it to the thread I wrote it for. I thought it might be a better post on it's own.
Nothing I say in this essay is backed up with photos or factory documents. Just my lifetime of experiance.
Authenticating Lansing built Oldsmobiles from the muscle car era. I've read a number of threads about people wanting to verify a real 442 or "W" car and I would like to put some of my experiance in this essay. I've been restoring 442's since my first 70 convertible in 1978. Restoring classic cars has been my full time career ever since. I've seen some amazing knockoff's (fakes, clones, tributes, etc.) in the last thirty-five years and there's a lot of them out there. When I've been asked to look at a car, there are three catagories I consider: #1. Inspection. #2. Documentation and #3. History.
#1. A general inspection of the car. Look for correct options for the model and build. An example would be, looking for correct rear sway bar, boxed lower control arms and frame stiffeners for a 442. Most of the information you would need to inspect a car can be found on this site. I also look for the matching numbers (Frame, motor and trans.) and if they're found I look to see if they look original. The factory did not do a very good job of clearly stamping numbers. So alot of original stampings are very poor. Restamps tend to be near perfect.
I used to go farther such as auditing the date codes. That would take some time to inspect and catalog all the date codes.
#2. Documents. With Oldsmobiles built in Lansing this is always an issue. To start with let's define some popular terms used by a lot of people.
"Build sheet"or "build card". This is what I would call a Fisher Body broadcast card. This is generally what you might find in a Lansing built car inside the seats and stapled to the bottom of the carpet. This card was generated by the Fisher Body division (not the Oldsmobile division) and only has the information needed for Fisher Body to produce the body assembly. Fisher Body was not responsible for the front clip (fenders and hood), chassis, drivetrain and bumpers. Be aware that Fisher Body didn't need to know if a car was a W-30 to build the body. I've seen very well documented examples of W-30 cars with and without "W-30" being broadcast on the Fisher Body broadcast card. In the case of W-31's, Fisher Body did need to know to delete side mouldings on cutlass S bodys and delete the sound deadener. Although I have seen one original car that didn't have "W-31" on the brodcast card. So go figure. A number of years ago I knew three people that installed interiors at Lansing Fisher Body and in talking to them learned some interesting info. Each car's interior was put together in the trim department one floor above the assembly line and put on a cart. The broadcast cards were used to coordinate the interior parts for each car.The carts with interiors were sent down on a freight elevator to the staging area next to the assembly line. The carts were lined up for assembly. The guys that worked there found that it was easier to roll all the common black interiors to one side and get the color interiors in order. Since I found this out, I've found two (as of August 2013, three) different cars with black interiors that had non matching cards ( # on the card didn't match the # on the cowl tag ).
"Broadcast Sheet" this would be a legal sized paper with build information generated by the Oldsmobile division. It would include all Regular Production Order (RPO) codes(factory installed options) to build each car. It would also show broadcast date, dealer destination and shipping info. The broadcast sheet was used by assembly plants (except for Lansing) to coordinate interiors. So if you have a car built anywhere but Lansing you might get lucky and find your broadcast sheet. Broadcast sheets were used at Lansing final assembly too, However they didn't stay with the car. Darn! There's a common myth that the broadcast sheet can sometimes be found above the gas tank. I've taken apart over a thousand Lansing built cars and have yet to find one broadcast sheet there. Maybe the myth comes from the fact that Corvettes and some other gm cars have their broadcast sheets taped to the top of their gas tanks.

#3. History. There is no such thing as a car with out history. We may not know the history but I'll say again, there is no such thing as a car with out history. I think this is the most important part of authenticating a car. Cars can be faked and documents can be faked even easier. However a good history with verification is tough to beat. I like to see pictures. Pictures with previous owners all the way back to new would be perfect (but rare). For all of you folks that have valuble and rare cars, get history information as soon as possible if you can. We're all getting older and it's much harder to find out the history of a car when previous owners have passed away. Unfortunatly it can be impossible to uncover the history of your car too. Just remember if you're buying, Verifiable history adds value.
Now for a few stories.
The first story is of a 67 big block corvette coupe. Sorry not an Olds, but a good story anyways. A good friend of mine owned this car for about ten years. After he pulled the original motor and installed a small block he never did any thing with it. A guy from the Detroit area knew of the car and kept making offers to buy it. Finally he named a price high enough and the coupe was his. About four years later this same car came up for sale at a major auction. What a suprise! it had it's original numbers matching motor!!! What my friend said and I quote " That's funny, the original motor is still in my garage ". It even gets better. The seller had displayed all the oil change receipts and other repair receipts for the life of the car. All of it was fake. the stack of receipts was like two inches thick, aged and looked very convincing. This happened in the early 80's.
The second story is of a 71 442 convertible dressed up as a W-30. The seller did not try to pass this off as a W-30 but sold it as a 442 convertible. He did claim in the title of an add he used to sell the car "A true unmolested surviver". Also included with the sale was a three ring binder with lots of receipts.The top side of this car was freshly painted and looked very nice. The color matched the cowl tag color code. Under the hood was a 455 with aluminum intake and "H" heads. This car looked as though the underside was never touched or restored. Very original, dirty and greasy. Upon inspecting this car I found the correct 344671M in the VIN and 34467 Body style on the cowl tag. After that it gets interesting. this car had 350 motor mounts, no return line from the gas tank, (71 big block cars had a return line) and marks on the rear frame rail from a single exhaust tailpipe hanger. The rear axle was a 2.56 open. The gas pedal had the bracket for the 350THM kickdown cable. I found the voltage regulator on the firewall (in 71 all 442's had an internal regulated alternator). Looking very close in the door jambs I could see that the color that matched the cowl tag was not the original color of the body. Ok folks. This car had the VIN and cowl tag changed (unmolested surviver). The receipt book looked impressive however if you started reading the receipts, most of them were from other cars. There were receipts for two headliners, four carbs, two clutches (this car was automatic) and a year one receipt for hardtop quarter panels. Well I broke the news to the owner that the car was originally a small block Cutlass Supreme convertible with a notebook of wrong reciepts. He wasn't too bothered. The price he paid for the car was about what you would pay for a nice Supreme convertible. The last I knew the current owner was correcting all the issues I had found wrong with the car. I wonder how this car will be represented next time it's sold? ~BOB

Dave Siltman

Very good info. and good reading, too.
Oh, what a web we weave............Folks, I say this NOT because of I being Christmas, but because of a way of life I was taught at a young age. Honesty is the best policy. Always has been, always will be. I maintain that there is a place in our hobby for clones, tributes, call them what you will, PLEASE JUST REPRESENT THEM AS SUCH!!!
Happy Holidays to one and all.

Octania

Thanks, Bob!
Did you ever find that first car you ever painted, a blue Nova?
:-)

Carshinebob

The first car I painted was my own silver 68 Impala custom coupe in the spring of 1974. Merry Christmas everyone. ~BOB

jwsolds

Good info Bob! I like researching documents myself and have to add things I've found.

What you call the Broadcast Card is what I call it too. But as some call it build sheet would be incorrect as I view it. Just minimal info Fisher Body used. And like you said, found mine stapled to the carpet (sized approx 4" x 8"). One particular difference is this is very thick paper compared to a build or Broadcast sheet. Something simular to the W30 442s, My '74 Broadcast Card has W30 listed on it but it's a Y77 Hurst and I've found same thing on two other '74 H/O Broadcast Cards that were 350 cars?.

Build Sheets do exist for Lansing cars as I luckily found mine under carpet in my '73. It's approx the same small size as Broadcast card but on lightweight paper. It has the build day, dealer & zone, etc., and alph-numeric blocks for all the options available. Each block corresponds to the "Inspector's Guide".

Now there is a third type document which I think you refer to as the Broadcast Sheet. It's the larger build document, with lots of blocks showing options such as shocks, interior, color, and such for build. Have documented a '69 that has both the small build sheet & larger build sheet (Broadcast Sheet). Another '74 known with build sheet and recently found a low mileage '74 with that larger build sheet found under carpet! First large build document I've seen in person and even for an H/O!

My personal cars are highly documented and I know what my documents are but have argued the difference between Build Sheets & Broadcast Cards because some have said mine is not a build sheet. I tend to research '73-'77 cars more and have documented Lansing Build sheets for those years though they are so very rare to find. As for the larger type build documents, Lansing did use them too as I've found both a '69 & '74 H/O with them so they do exist along with the small build sheet for Lansing cars.

Carshinebob

Thanks for more info Jon. In my experiance (most of my experiance ends at 1972) it would be rare to find full broadcast (small or large) under carpeting in Lansing built cars because carpets were installed at Fisher Body and F.B. didn't need to know the full broadcast to build a body. However Hurst/Olds cars are different than regular production cars. So I might only assume that there could be differences in how the documents followed those cars. Thanks again and happy holidays. ~BOB

Jimi2much

Carshinebob , thanks for the dose of clarity and accuracy . If there was a way to " collect " information and essay's like this it would be priceless .
I have been around many of the same circles you have been around , and can only say + 1000 .
The individuals that create and cause ( build ) these cars have zero shame .
Your Corvette story went straight to my heart . A shop I managed in the high end exhaust business was witness to grinding and ageing of block and head pads , and near perfect gang stamp reproduction numbers . Wealthy owners of cars , professionals doing these modifications after hours in my shop . THERE should be a law . The Mecum announcers should NOT be allowed to say Matching Numbers about ANY car crossing the block . Repeating ANY lie , simply does not make that lie , a truth . The announcers COULD say , " THIS is a BORN WITH engine , components , and drive line car. Seems to rarely happen .
THEN , show me pictures . Tell me Jerry MacNeish certified your Chevy , Kevin Marti did your Ford , or Galen Govier did your Mopar , I'm good .
THEN , still double check the dates of certification , name of the person it was certified to , ETC .
In this electronically and image driven world we live in it would be very possible to accomplish this . I'm just not that guy . It would be possible for a I-pad , notebook camera to close up on cowl tags , block - head -
intake - trans ID #'s - R.E. stamps , and then just post the images on the appropriate forums . I wanted to do this at B - J this January . I have this sneaking hunch that if an individual were too prolific at recording too many cars , MANAGEMENT of the event might begin to question you .
BOTTOM line is this . If you have correct , accurate , detailed images and stories , YOU WANT people to ask , and are HAPPY to show . If there is a cloud over your details ( papers , owners + restorers trails ) that usually surfaces very quickly .... Again BOB , great essay , timely topic .
Thanks , JT

rustyroger

Very interesting post Bob, thank you.
Of all the millions of cars sold in the USA over time I wonder how many can be accurately documented right back to being sold new?.
My guess is if the figure were expressed as a percentage it would start with a decimal point and several zeroes....
Unfortunately with any collectable, be it cars, jewellery, art, or sport memorabilia, there will always be fakes floating around, from bodge jobs a blind man shouldn't miss like a four door 442 perhaps, to very skilfully executed clones that can and have fooled experts.
I suppose we need to be cynical and assume anything offered as an original classic probably isn't unless backed by by hard incontrovertible evidence of its authenticity.
I'm pretty confident that my current car is an unmolested original simply because it's an '87 Olds 88, not worth much, so not worth faking. I dare say I could paint it, freshen up the interior, clean up the engine etc, then wind back the clock from its current 152k miles (which I know to be incorrect because the speedometer didn't work when I got the car) to say, 28k and present it as a genuine low mileage survivor complete with fake history. I won't because I despise dishonesty, and the car wouldn't be worth enough to make it worth anyones while.
But older more desirable cars (not limited to Oldsmobile by any means) are fair game for this kind of activity.
Certainly it happens over here with old Jaguars, Rileys, Mini Coopers and the like, and I'd wager anywhere else in the world where there is a lively collector car hobby.


Roger.

1970cs

Hi Bob,

Anyone you recognize in these pictures.

Pat

allyolds68

Nice write up but are you sure about Fisher not caring about W30's? I was always thought that the W30 did not show on the Fisher Broadcast card in 68-69 because the fenders were pierced at the Lansing Plant but in 70-72 the W30 stripes and fenders were completed at Fisher.

Carshinebob

All W-30 and W-31 stripes were painted in the final repair hole at the end of the line just inside the exit door at final assembly where the finished cars drove out. Also the front fenders were still being painted and installed at final assembly in 70-72. ~BOB

Carshinebob

Hi Pat
Those are pictures of Gary Glen. He just passed away about a month ago. The picture with my old H/O golf cart is Gary and me. May he R.I.P. ~BOB

PS. after looking at the picture of Gary and I, I realized that it was taken at LCC durring the 1997 Olds Centenial show.

Ctls442

Thanks Bob for taking the time to put together this informative essay, and post for education purposes. Greg

lazy394

The older the car the harder it becomes. My 59 was advertised as a genuine 39k car in 2006, I bought it in 2010 with 42k on it. Every effort to confirm this ended with dead ends.
The suspension and trim suggest this would be close but no documentation exists as it has outlasted its original owner, dealer and sadly Manufacturer.
The only documentation available is a service sticker in the glovebox showing 32 k in 1974.
I adjusted the price and bought it based on 142k.

costpenn

Thanks Bob.

Sure wish you were closer. I'm getting ready to send my W-30 off to paint.

Carshinebob

After following Stefano's recent posts, I thought about bringing this thread back from the past.
One more story to add since this was originally written.
A couple of years ago a customer of mine from the distant past contacted me about restoring a 69 Trans Am. We parted the car out in 1980. he still had the clear title and had just got the PHS doc for the car. So what he wanted to do is build this car from another body with all the correct as built options. Has this been done before? I bet it has. I declined to be involved in this project. My point is, I guess that would be a complete re-body right down to the recreated VIN plate. Cheers. ~BOB

Koda

I have found that people are concerned with other people being honest, but, for themselves, their only concern is to not get caught. I find it easy to be honest in this hobby as I am not in it for money. I buy what I need, and have yet to sell anything, though I will someday soon.

A restored car is easily understandable. A survivor is an unrestored original car, sometimes called a "numbers matching original." I do not consider an original car with a paint job a survivor. I own my grandfather's Monte Carlo, and it will need a paint job to both the body and engine. It has had partial repaints due to two wrecks. Right now, it is a survivor; someday, it will be a "minor restoration."

A 442 with a powertrain that is not original is a "non-numbers matching 442." A 442 with the original powertrain and a different body, but all else original is a "rebodied 442." A frame replacement is a frame replacement. A pieced together car, with parts from wherever, and vin and cowl from a 442 is a clone, and a fake.

Now, all that is fairly obvious, and thanks for reading it. My question is this. Situation A is a numbers matching 442 with a rusted body gets a new body and is a rebodied 442. Situation B is someone takes powertrain and tags from a wrecked 442, and puts them into a rolling Cutlass body....what is that car then? Is it a clone, or a rebody? I personally think it's a clone, and then the next question is, what is the dividing line between a rebody, where everything but the body shell is original, and a clone, where you put a 442 powertrain into a Cutlass? That may be a case by case thing.

Greg Rogers

Great info Bob, I didn't see it before. Glad you brought it back.

D. Yaros

I have to agree that this is great info. Thanks for your sharing your knowledge and insights!

allyolds68

Bob,

Do you know why 68 Lansing 442's have W29 on the small 2"x4" broadcast card? The cowl tags obviously weren't 344's.

Carshinebob

Sorry. I don't know that one. ~BOB

Koda

I am going to reason that it is something 442 (w-29) specific, that a W-30 would not get, or vice versa. Needed something to differentiate between 442 options. I have no idea what, though.

allyolds68

W30's got them too. It could be something as simple as the dash pinstripe

Koda

A w-30 got a card that said w-29?

allyolds68

With 68-69 Lansing cars there wasn't anything on the broadcast card to identify it as a W30. The cowl tags were V8 Cutlass tags. I had always thought this was because Olds made no distinction between a Cutlass and a 442 until the cars came to the Lansing assembly line. Then I found the W29 on my card and all others I know with these cards have it too. So there was "something" that made 442's different from Cutlass bodies when they left Fisher. These are the small tags that are usually found hog ringed to the rear seat springs

Koda

Well, I imagine the trunk said 442.

Mr Shifty Sidney

Bob
Can you give more information on post #9 & #12? Is the person pictured the guy that put the stripes on the 68 H/O's?

Thanks
Don W

Carshinebob

Gary Glenn was a Lansing legend. Painted signs and art on cars. He wasn't the guy that striped the Hurst Olds cars when they were new though. ~BOB

Mr Shifty Sidney

Bob
The reason I asked was I have talked to a guy locally whose dad did stripe the 68 H/O and some of the 69's. I think he said they offered to let him switch to the Hurst Scramblers if he wanted to. He did just to do something different. I need to chase this story down and get all the details.

Don W

1970cs

Please read the body and interior section of this Hemmings article. "lore"

http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/...rs_guide1.html

Carshinebob

I'm bringing back this zombie because just this week two different people called and asked questions that are addressed in the first post of this thread. ~BOB

OLDSter Ralph

Bob, thanks. Lots of info from beginning to end. It makes me think about documentation. I had one of those H/O's" back in the day". I am starting to think about documentation for my 1970 W-30. I ordered it and own it. Its nicely tucked away for my heirs.
Ralph

72xw30

The '68 "YoungMobiles" broadcast card (Lansing) WILL have the W30 option selected as #7 in BOX 37.

For a Ramrod, W31 option, #8 would be selected in BOX 37.

The broadcast card itself for 1968 is different then other Lansing broadcast cards found in the W Machines from 69-72.

The 69 broadcast card (Lansing) has nothing printed on it to identify the W30 option as mentioned above.

The 68 and 69 model years seem to be the toughest years to document the W30/W31 option.

Cheers,
Sam

allyolds68

mobileW-30

great post bob and your work man ship is fantastic .

rand5204

I recently sold my 71 442 convertible. One of the potential buyers (thanks Mike) found what Bob has referred to as the "build sheet" under the front seat. It is the "small" about 4x8 I guess, sheet referenced above. I have never found this document in any Oldsmobile I have ever owned. in fact, I've never even seen this one before. This car was built in Lansing and had two broadcast cards AND this small build sheet. Pics of all below


I have the large build sheet for my 70 442 but it was built in Fremont. They seem more common from that plant