old car philosophies
April 27th, 2012, 05:01 PM
#1
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old car philosophies
so at what point does the old saying of "if it ain't broke don't fix it" become preventative maintence?
I'll use my car as an example, it has 103k miles on it and the trans shifts and operates just fine,never (knock wood) slips or gives an issue,but w/ all those miles is it time to start considering having it refreshed and maybe a new torque converter.
I've only logged about 2,500 miles since the last time the pan was dropped and filter replaced and that was some yrs back.
This also applies to the the engine, is it time to consider having a top end job done,new valves,springs,rods,lifters and such? maybe a new stock cam? is it bad to put a new cam in w/ out replacing other parts as everything is "broken in together"?
same thing for the carb, that was rebuilt about 12 yrs ago and it starts right up,choke works nice and all, no smell of gas or leakage around base.
not that money is free flowing and I have it to burn, I don't want to spend needlessly but it would be interesting to hear some outside opinions and get other perspective on things.
mike
I'll use my car as an example, it has 103k miles on it and the trans shifts and operates just fine,never (knock wood) slips or gives an issue,but w/ all those miles is it time to start considering having it refreshed and maybe a new torque converter.
I've only logged about 2,500 miles since the last time the pan was dropped and filter replaced and that was some yrs back.
This also applies to the the engine, is it time to consider having a top end job done,new valves,springs,rods,lifters and such? maybe a new stock cam? is it bad to put a new cam in w/ out replacing other parts as everything is "broken in together"?
same thing for the carb, that was rebuilt about 12 yrs ago and it starts right up,choke works nice and all, no smell of gas or leakage around base.
not that money is free flowing and I have it to burn, I don't want to spend needlessly but it would be interesting to hear some outside opinions and get other perspective on things.
mike
April 27th, 2012, 05:35 PM
#2
Kjr442
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Texas
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IMO Unless you are restoring the car I would not open up a transmission or anything else that has no sign of a problem. I think brakes,wheel bearings,and so on fall in the P M kind of thing.
Last edited by kjr442; April 27th, 2012 at 05:38 PM.
April 27th, 2012, 06:58 PM
#3
Just an Olds Guy
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Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
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what he said ^^^^. Tranny fluid isn't going to break down when it's not being used. If the tranny or engine isn't leaking and is providing faithful service? Wait until you have symptoms that need mtce. BTW, I do count the trans flush and filter replacement as mtce, but that's like doing an oil change or grease job.
April 27th, 2012, 07:29 PM
#4
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Keep It Original and "Over" Maintain It
Mike,
From looking at the picture by your user name your car is 68 Delta 88, this is one of my all-time favorites. If the car is nice now "over maintain" it and keep it original. It will cost less and the car will be original.
IMO use very high quality lubricants and parts and cut the manufacturers maintenance schedule in half. For example, if they recommend an oil change in 3K do it in 1.5K or at least twice a year, especially before winter storage. Drive the car first to enjoy it and second to help keep it in good operating condition.
Some may disagree, but I would definitely put a timing chain and both gears in it as maintenance soon because the cam gear has plastic teeth that could fail without notice possibly bending valves. Also, the plastic teeth are probably wearing away and may chip off and plug the oil pump pick-up screen. You will probably regain some performance that you didn't even know was missing due to chain stretch causing retarded valve timing. I would not go farther into the engine unless there is a problem. Just as an example if you pull the heads to do a cleanup you would lower the compression ratio due to new non-factory, thicker head gaskets.
As maintenance have the suspension, brakes, steel brake lines and rubber hoses closely inspected.
For maintenance change all of the fluids even the differential, power steering fluid and the brake fluid (you may want to get the brake fluid done professionally). When servicing the trans change the filter but don't let anyone flush it. Flushing can move particles and start a problem. If the trans does give any problems then rebuild it at that point.
If you plan on keeping it for a long time start stocking up on hard to find parts such as lenses, brake parts, axle seals, carb kit, choke pull-off and float instead of spending money on items that are in good shape.
Invest in preventing rust, I've read that a product called Fluidfilm is good. Has anyone else on the forum used it, anyone have experience with Fluidfilm?
Just my opinion FWIW. Best wishes.
From looking at the picture by your user name your car is 68 Delta 88, this is one of my all-time favorites. If the car is nice now "over maintain" it and keep it original. It will cost less and the car will be original.
IMO use very high quality lubricants and parts and cut the manufacturers maintenance schedule in half. For example, if they recommend an oil change in 3K do it in 1.5K or at least twice a year, especially before winter storage. Drive the car first to enjoy it and second to help keep it in good operating condition.
Some may disagree, but I would definitely put a timing chain and both gears in it as maintenance soon because the cam gear has plastic teeth that could fail without notice possibly bending valves. Also, the plastic teeth are probably wearing away and may chip off and plug the oil pump pick-up screen. You will probably regain some performance that you didn't even know was missing due to chain stretch causing retarded valve timing. I would not go farther into the engine unless there is a problem. Just as an example if you pull the heads to do a cleanup you would lower the compression ratio due to new non-factory, thicker head gaskets.
As maintenance have the suspension, brakes, steel brake lines and rubber hoses closely inspected.
For maintenance change all of the fluids even the differential, power steering fluid and the brake fluid (you may want to get the brake fluid done professionally). When servicing the trans change the filter but don't let anyone flush it. Flushing can move particles and start a problem. If the trans does give any problems then rebuild it at that point.
If you plan on keeping it for a long time start stocking up on hard to find parts such as lenses, brake parts, axle seals, carb kit, choke pull-off and float instead of spending money on items that are in good shape.
Invest in preventing rust, I've read that a product called Fluidfilm is good. Has anyone else on the forum used it, anyone have experience with Fluidfilm?
Just my opinion FWIW. Best wishes.
April 27th, 2012, 07:33 PM
#5
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I know heat kills the tranny fluid. If its nice and red and doesn't smell burnt, your fine. As for the engine, if it isn't using oil, leaking everywhere, and runs fine, then leave it alone. Just change the oil and filter at least once a year if it isn't used much. And always make sure when you do use it, its able to get warmed up good. like a 20 mile drive. Just enjoy it, I know Oldmobile engines will run and run and run as long as you keep the oil fresh and full. 
April 27th, 2012, 07:58 PM
#6
Kjr442
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Texas
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" I would definitely put a timing chain and both gears in it as maintenance soon because the cam gear has plastic teeth that could fail without notice possibly bending valves. Also, the plastic teeth are probably wearing away and may chip off and plug the oil pump pick-up screen. You will probably regain some performance that you didn't even know was missing due to chain stretch causing retarded valve timing"
X 2
I do agree with this as a preventive maintenance.
X 2
I do agree with this as a preventive maintenance.
April 27th, 2012, 08:59 PM
#7
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Mike,
From looking at the picture by your user name your car is 68 Delta 88, this is one of my all-time favorites. If the car is nice now "over maintain" it and keep it original. It will cost less and the car will be original.
Thanks for the feedback i appreciate the time you took to reply. I hate to disappoint you but the car's the '98 ragtop.
Some may disagree, but I would definitely put a timing chain and both gears in it as maintenance soon because the cam gear has plastic teeth that could fail without notice possibly bending valves. Also, the plastic teeth are probably wearing away and may chip off and plug the oil pump pick-up screen. You will probably regain some performance that you didn't even know was missing due to chain stretch causing retarded valve timing. I would not go farther into the engine unless there is a problem. Just as an example if you pull the heads to do a cleanup you would lower the compression ratio due to new non-factory, thicker head gaskets.
(knocking wood) there's no problem w/ the engine and thank for the feedback on the timing chain and gears,never would have thought there was plastic there!
When servicing the trans change the filter but don't let anyone flush it. Flushing can move particles and start a problem. If the trans does give any problems then rebuild it at that point.
If the trans isn't flushed how do you get all the fluid out? just keep dropping the pan every couple years?
Is it advisable to add a drain plug to just drain the fluid and refill to proper level?
If you plan on keeping it for a long time start stocking up on hard to find parts such as lenses, brake parts, axle seals, carb kit, choke pull-off and float instead of spending money on items that are in good shape.
I'm trying to, sometimes easier said than done.
Invest in preventing rust, I've read that a product called Fluidfilm is good. Has anyone else on the forum used it, anyone have experience with Fluidfilm?
Never heard of it,but the car is garaged and barely comes out. The picture you see is from '01 I believe after it came home from paint and still looks the same.
Just my opinion FWIW. Best wishes.
From looking at the picture by your user name your car is 68 Delta 88, this is one of my all-time favorites. If the car is nice now "over maintain" it and keep it original. It will cost less and the car will be original.
Thanks for the feedback i appreciate the time you took to reply. I hate to disappoint you but the car's the '98 ragtop.
Some may disagree, but I would definitely put a timing chain and both gears in it as maintenance soon because the cam gear has plastic teeth that could fail without notice possibly bending valves. Also, the plastic teeth are probably wearing away and may chip off and plug the oil pump pick-up screen. You will probably regain some performance that you didn't even know was missing due to chain stretch causing retarded valve timing. I would not go farther into the engine unless there is a problem. Just as an example if you pull the heads to do a cleanup you would lower the compression ratio due to new non-factory, thicker head gaskets.
(knocking wood) there's no problem w/ the engine and thank for the feedback on the timing chain and gears,never would have thought there was plastic there!
When servicing the trans change the filter but don't let anyone flush it. Flushing can move particles and start a problem. If the trans does give any problems then rebuild it at that point.
If the trans isn't flushed how do you get all the fluid out? just keep dropping the pan every couple years?
Is it advisable to add a drain plug to just drain the fluid and refill to proper level?
If you plan on keeping it for a long time start stocking up on hard to find parts such as lenses, brake parts, axle seals, carb kit, choke pull-off and float instead of spending money on items that are in good shape.
I'm trying to, sometimes easier said than done.
Invest in preventing rust, I've read that a product called Fluidfilm is good. Has anyone else on the forum used it, anyone have experience with Fluidfilm?
Never heard of it,but the car is garaged and barely comes out. The picture you see is from '01 I believe after it came home from paint and still looks the same.
Just my opinion FWIW. Best wishes.
thanks again,
mike
April 27th, 2012, 09:01 PM
#8
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It depends a lot on how much and how far you travel with your car. A breakdown five miles from home isn't much of a deal, 1200 miles is a different story. I would do (repair) all the things that have a history of leaving you stranded with out warning first, like the timing gear and do the rest as you feel they need it or can afford......Tedd
Last edited by Tedd Thompson; April 27th, 2012 at 09:03 PM. Reason: spelling
April 27th, 2012, 09:02 PM
#9
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" I would definitely put a timing chain and both gears in it as maintenance soon because the cam gear has plastic teeth that could fail without notice possibly bending valves. Also, the plastic teeth are probably wearing away and may chip off and plug the oil pump pick-up screen. You will probably regain some performance that you didn't even know was missing due to chain stretch causing retarded valve timing"
X 2
I do agree with this as a preventive maintenance.
X 2
I do agree with this as a preventive maintenance.
mike
April 27th, 2012, 09:21 PM
#10
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,100
98 Convertible
98 Convertible...definitely no disappointment there!
About adding a drain plug to the trans pan, I would only do that if you are still going to drop the pan and change the filter each time. It does make the job easier if it has a drain plug; however, if you are dropping the pan to change the filter it probably is not worth adding the plug. The torque converter does not have a drain plug so approximately four quarts is all that is exchanged each service.
As a previous poster mentioned, if the fluid smells and appears ok than it should be a good trans but don't wait until the fluid shows any signs of deterioration to do the servicing. With low mileage accumulation every couple of years should be sufficient.
About adding a drain plug to the trans pan, I would only do that if you are still going to drop the pan and change the filter each time. It does make the job easier if it has a drain plug; however, if you are dropping the pan to change the filter it probably is not worth adding the plug. The torque converter does not have a drain plug so approximately four quarts is all that is exchanged each service.
As a previous poster mentioned, if the fluid smells and appears ok than it should be a good trans but don't wait until the fluid shows any signs of deterioration to do the servicing. With low mileage accumulation every couple of years should be sufficient.
April 27th, 2012, 10:40 PM
#11
Connoisseur d'Junque
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Location: The Hudson Valley
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I agree with everyone else.
Change timing chain and gears somewhere before 100,000 "whether it needs it or not," because it need it.
Be aggressive with the regular maintenance.
If the carb is working great, don't mess with it, but get a rebuild kit and keep it "in stock" so that you can quickly go through it if a problem develops.
Changing your brake fluid seems over the top, but it will definitely make your brake system last longer (and European maintenance rules these days call for new brake fluid every 1-2 years, so it's not as crazy as it sounds).
Do not mess with your transmission.
The TH400 is as close to a perfect and indestructible machine as has ever been created and will happily survive hellish mistreatment, so long as it is properly ignored.
If you stir up trouble, though, trouble is what you will get.
I had a couple of '68s full-sizes, and I am very fond of them.
- Eric
Change timing chain and gears somewhere before 100,000 "whether it needs it or not," because it need it.
Be aggressive with the regular maintenance.
If the carb is working great, don't mess with it, but get a rebuild kit and keep it "in stock" so that you can quickly go through it if a problem develops.
Changing your brake fluid seems over the top, but it will definitely make your brake system last longer (and European maintenance rules these days call for new brake fluid every 1-2 years, so it's not as crazy as it sounds).
Do not mess with your transmission.
The TH400 is as close to a perfect and indestructible machine as has ever been created and will happily survive hellish mistreatment, so long as it is properly ignored.
If you stir up trouble, though, trouble is what you will get.
I had a couple of '68s full-sizes, and I am very fond of them.
- Eric
April 28th, 2012, 04:41 AM
#12
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hey all; appreciate the info.
as for the timing chain/gears, looking thr USA Auto Parts catalog, they have 2 sets available.
3piece timing set;
1) is for All 8cyl '68-76 standard 8cyl $40.00
2) is for All 8cyl '68-76 high performance $110.00
if anyone knows,what's the difference? obviously I do not have a high performance car,but would it wrong/bad to put the high performance timing set in my car?
would/is the gearing different? or is it made for high performance and stronger....or thinking about it, it could be both,stronger and different gearing.
well something to think about....I wasn't planning on doing a costly repair this year and was hoping to drive the car out to the Olds Homecoming in June (about 750 miles from home) but now I might need to reconsider.
mike
as for the timing chain/gears, looking thr USA Auto Parts catalog, they have 2 sets available.
3piece timing set;
1) is for All 8cyl '68-76 standard 8cyl $40.00
2) is for All 8cyl '68-76 high performance $110.00
if anyone knows,what's the difference? obviously I do not have a high performance car,but would it wrong/bad to put the high performance timing set in my car?
would/is the gearing different? or is it made for high performance and stronger....or thinking about it, it could be both,stronger and different gearing.
well something to think about....I wasn't planning on doing a costly repair this year and was hoping to drive the car out to the Olds Homecoming in June (about 750 miles from home) but now I might need to reconsider.
mike
April 28th, 2012, 05:43 AM
#14
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There are a huge variety of timing sets out there, and all I can say is that Bill Trovato (if I recall correctly) noted in his book that he had seen cheap Chinesium sets that were over 7° off, so unless you get a really good one, you should degree the cam after you put it together.
- Eric
- Eric
April 28th, 2012, 08:49 AM
#15
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Just go out and purchase a Cloyles brand set if you can find it. It will outlast you and the car. While your in there I would also change the water pump if has not been replaced in the recent past.
April 28th, 2012, 08:53 AM
#16
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timing sets
There are a huge variety of timing sets out there, and all I can say is that Bill Trovato (if I recall correctly) noted in his book that he had seen cheap Chinesium sets that were over 7° off, so unless you get a really good one, you should degree the cam after you put it together.
- Eric
- Eric
hey eric, thanks for the heads up, you got any mfr recommendations on timing sets?
mike
April 28th, 2012, 08:57 AM
#17
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water pump was done about 3 yrs ago...maybe has 500 miles on it.
now...what about the camshaft? Let it be as the Beatles said?
April 28th, 2012, 11:09 AM
#18
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Leave the Camshaft
Replacing the camshaft would require additional work and expense that is not preventive maintenance IMO. If the engine performs well and sounds good, my opinion is to leave the camshaft alone. The early 455's were strong motors that ran very well with factory parts that were within spec. This is why they are sought after.
If the camshaft is changed, a full set of lifters would be needed, a couple of pushrods, rocker stanchions, etc. it adds up fast and in the end of the project you will have a good running 68 455, the same thing you started with, a good running 68 455.
This has become an interesting thread, thanks for starting it!
If the camshaft is changed, a full set of lifters would be needed, a couple of pushrods, rocker stanchions, etc. it adds up fast and in the end of the project you will have a good running 68 455, the same thing you started with, a good running 68 455.
This has become an interesting thread, thanks for starting it!
April 28th, 2012, 08:03 PM
#19
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OC, I looked up the Cloyles and there is a timing set available for my car.
From the picture they provide,it looks pretty stout.
Thank you for the tip,as always all the info everyone gives out is really appreciated.
April 28th, 2012, 08:16 PM
#20
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Replacing the camshaft would require additional work and expense that is not preventive maintenance IMO. If the engine performs well and sounds good, my opinion is to leave the camshaft alone. The early 455's were strong motors that ran very well with factory parts that were within spec. This is why they are sought after.
If the camshaft is changed, a full set of lifters would be needed, a couple of pushrods, rocker stanchions, etc. it adds up fast and in the end of the project you will have a good running 68 455, the same thing you started with, a good running 68 455.
This has become an interesting thread, thanks for starting it!
If the camshaft is changed, a full set of lifters would be needed, a couple of pushrods, rocker stanchions, etc. it adds up fast and in the end of the project you will have a good running 68 455, the same thing you started with, a good running 68 455.
This has become an interesting thread, thanks for starting it!
I kind of thought that installing a new cam would open a whole can of worms of added work so all that other work will need to be put on hold until I can have the motor pulled stripped down/media blasted and re-painted. So all that other stuff just got added to "The List".
The good thing is the motor & trans feel strong, but now after reading thru the thread, the need to get that timing set out of there is pretty urgent.
Glad you've enjoyed this thread,one thing I've learned about this site is that there are some real good ones on here,I wish I would have come across this place a few years back,I feel like the new freshman at school.
April 28th, 2012, 08:57 PM
#22
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..Tedd
April 30th, 2012, 06:48 PM
#23
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My 64 Dymanic 88 has had the following done to it all under the title of PM the past 4 yrs:
oil change 2x a year
power steering fluid changed.
radiator fluid changed and radiator re cored
rear end fluid flushed and replaced
brakes bled.
standard tune-up...plugs wires rotor points etc.
and everything down to the door hinges oil and greased.
I change the fuel filter with every tune-up.
My wheels have only 89K, I have replaced every gasket I could find except the tranny.
I agree with everyone who say change out the timing chain. Since I had a leaking cover gasket I decided to change the chain...it was loose and the gears were very stressed. the performance improved .
Any time I do some some kind of PM( especially on the engine) I notice a vast improvement, and I feel more confident on long drives...and that is the most important thing
oil change 2x a year
power steering fluid changed.
radiator fluid changed and radiator re cored
rear end fluid flushed and replaced
brakes bled.
standard tune-up...plugs wires rotor points etc.
and everything down to the door hinges oil and greased.
I change the fuel filter with every tune-up.
My wheels have only 89K, I have replaced every gasket I could find except the tranny.
I agree with everyone who say change out the timing chain. Since I had a leaking cover gasket I decided to change the chain...it was loose and the gears were very stressed. the performance improved .
Any time I do some some kind of PM( especially on the engine) I notice a vast improvement, and I feel more confident on long drives...and that is the most important thing
April 30th, 2012, 07:02 PM
#24
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I'm not saying that this will happen to everybody, but it definitely DID happen to me.
- Eric
May 1st, 2012, 05:39 AM
#25
Collector of Stray 55's
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I do not want to argue with you, as this has come up before, but when the timing chain on my '70 Cutlass convertible (350, 4bbl, 10.25:1, 106,000 miles) jumped a tooth at idle, it bent four valves.
I'm not saying that this will happen to everybody, but it definitely DID happen to me.
- Eric
I'm not saying that this will happen to everybody, but it definitely DID happen to me.
- Eric
This ABSOLUTELY happened to my 71 Supreme convertible when it had the orignial 350. Timing chain had jumped a tooth (or 3) and I had valves damaged - don't remember exactly how many, but it was more than one -
May 1st, 2012, 06:18 AM
#26
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http://www.amazon.com/Cloyes-C3082-3...5878113&sr=8-1
I really want to do my timing chain too. My odometer is at 116000 miles, and i'm not "100%" sure the guy before me changed it. I think i'm going to assume he didnt and just get it done.
May 1st, 2012, 07:31 AM
#28
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Yeah, but look what happens when i search for '71 4-4-2 on cloyes.com it gives P/N --> C3082 --> List price 67.99
Of course, i assume that the 71 and 72 350 engines are identical.
THEN, i search for 72' Cutlass and it gives P/N --> C3006 List price 26.95
What the heck is going on!?
Last edited by Tony72Cutlass'S'; May 1st, 2012 at 07:58 AM.
May 1st, 2012, 08:56 AM
#30
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I do not want to argue with you, as this has come up before, but when the timing chain on my '70 Cutlass convertible (350, 4bbl, 10.25:1, 106,000 miles) jumped a tooth at idle, it bent four valves.
May 1st, 2012, 09:18 AM
#31
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There's always an outlier...
- Eric
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