pcard

I am hoping to enter my car in this year's meet in Springfield, and have a couple of questions of the more experience folks.
Rule 33 requires:

33.

8. STOCK/RESTORED STOCK

means that the vehicle was available for public sale and is as
it appeared when new plus any accessories of the era. So-called “Promo Vehicles” must
provide proof of existence. Items that are WEAR DATED and have been replaced such as
tires, shocks, mufflers and battery DO NOT exclude an entry from this class. DUAL
EXHAUST does not force an entry out of this class. Any other item that has been replaced
due to wear is permissible as long as the owner has attempted to restore the item as close as

possible to the original. An Original in good repair (according to the Judge) takes precedence

I have a reproduction Olds radio from AutoSound - does this qualify as "attempt to restore as close as possible"?

Thanks, Peter

1970cs

Run to Rund

You can use sales brochures, owner's manual, chassis and body service manuals, Service Guild bulletins of the era, assembly manual, pretty much any factory documents pertaining to the car.

If the radio looks correct, it will be fine. I assume the speakers are factory or hidden from obvious view. A boom box in the trunk, for example, would result in a points deduction, since it is obviously non-original.

pcard

Thanks guys. I do have an original 1970 Fisher Manual and an original 1970 Service Manual.
The Custom AutoSound 630 Oldsmobile model radio looks very close when turned off, and speakers are factory correct in dash, and hidden behind seat in rear.

69HO43

Supporting documentation could be iffy if it doesn't go to describing the car, etc. Try to get a repro window sticker from TK-65 as mentioned, and any dealer literature you can find for your car, which there's plenty. That should be easy to do.

Repro parts are acceptable as long as they work, and look pretty much like originals. If you have a digital clock on the radio face even if it's close in appearance otherwise, then it'd probably cost you. But if you had upgraded guts in an otherwise stock looking radio from the outside, then that usually is perfectly fine.

Of course, there's always a little bit of subjectivity based on the judge. What I personally would find acceptable for something on the fence may not fly with another. And vice-versa.

The main point is that you get the car like YOU want it and enjoy it for what it is. And if you find that you didn't have enough of the right literature or if a part isn't deemed "acceptable" per se, then you can choose to upgrade it and fix it for next time, or ignore it and just have fun with your car. It's may be a good idea to attend car shows and find out what it is that makes one car stand out and get recognized over the others. Watch, listen, and learn. You'll do fine.

Biggest issues I found when judging is CLEANLINESS, or lack threof!! You'd be surprised how many cars look great, but the detailing like dirt in the seat beading crevices, down in the window belt weatherstripping, and trunk lips, etc., definitely made a difference between the "good" and the "wow" factor.

pcard

OK -I will pursue the sticker. Does this have to mimic my build sheet exactly, or should it reflect the options that I have added/changed, such a center console, bucket seats and passenger side mirror?
As for the radio, I was more concerned about if the reproduction radio would disqualify me completely from the "Restored Stock" class. If I loose points then that is a choice I have made, and I will live with it.
I plan on driving the car out from Rhode Island so it may pick up some dirt, especially if it rains, but I will have time to detail it before the show.
Thanks all for your help.

joe_padavano

I guess by "very close" you mean it has five buttons and two *****. Sorry, but this is clearly not OEM. As a judge, I would deduct points for this.

Here's the factory radio:

pcard

Joe - yep, that is the radio, obviously not OEM, but let's say trying to be close Loosing points I would expect, just do not want to be banished to the Pale.

Tedd Thompson

Be sure to get your judging sheet after the show so you will know what cost you points and what didn't. Most judges will catch the major stuff but you will be surprised what gets missed. If I judged my own car I would never trophy.....Tedd

69HO43

As far as a build sheet vs. window sticker, it's not a big deal if you added a tilt wheel for example, and although it's not on the build sheet, the reproduction window sticker shows the add-on. Recall it's period-correct additions.

The only time you get into issues really is when you try to say something like under bumper ram air like a 68/69 W-car came on your Cutlass SX without legitimate documentation to verify.

Run to Rund

Your service manuals plus a sales brochure or owner's manual will be plenty.

Run to Rund

Don't forget the fire extinguisher!

costpenn

X2. First thing I look at when judging are the wiper arms and blades and pedals (rubber pads) and pedal arm paint. Easy to see and are ofter overlooked.

rocketraider

Any more I'll take the deduction on the supportive literature and spirit items for two reasons:

1) it invites theft (you wouldn't think it would happen but it has) and some of that stuff is expensive. If you're lucky your collector insurance policy will cover a theft loss.

2) I have had serious disagreements with the OCA Judging Committee over supportive literature/ spirit items being a points deduction instead of bonus points as it was when I started judging way back in 1988. I don't know who changed that or when but I have been very vocal about it and was basically told to shut up because it would stand as a points deduction.

I'm there to judge a car, not a literature or especially a trophy display, and I fail to see where either is a reflection on a car's quality. It HAS caused some exceptional cars to lose Best of Class to a lesser car that had a fancier SL/SI display, and that's when I barked about it.

I'm also convinced that National Judging Committee is a bunch of slackers who are invisible in OCA and who do not shoulder their weight in the judging program at the National Meets. As a Zone director I moved to put responsibility for all National Meet judging issues on the NJC, reasoning that the host chapter had enough to handle without having to recruit and train judges, keep up with and total the scoresheets, and make sure owners who requested their sheet got them. I was told in no uncertain terms that if that motion passed and they were saddled with that responsibility the entire NJC would walk. I said don't let the door hit you in the *** on your way out.

Tedd Thompson

I have never never lost a point by doing just that, sometimes less is better.Get odd outrageous or real fancy and that is when you get into problems....Tedd

pcard

Tedd - we all judge our stuff harsher than anyone else will, especially our cars and wives (always trying to make them better).
I already have a fire can, always had one in my car after seeing a damaged car by the side of the road out in the middle of nowhere.
I wondered about the reason for requireing the promo material. I can understand a document which identifies the equipement you have added or changed in a restoration in order to highlight what was original. But that would just be as an aid for the judges, not speaking to the quality or attention to detail of the work.
And I can see how original build sheets or invoices or window stickers would be a bonus, just like having a complete set of service records, or original photos your friend took with you and your girl in the front seat. It documents your car and adds to its story. I do not think it should effect the "car score" though. The car should stand alone.
I also thought another bonus category would be documentation on the resotration process itself, to help other guys understand what was done and how. You know, things like what type of materials were used, where they came from, any special techniques used. Rob would excel in that! I thought that people could even have mini presentations and seminars on their projects during the first few days of the show.
Anyway - did not want to turn this into a political hot potato.
Thanks, Peter

TK-65

If I had something very valuable to the car, like an original window sticker, build sheet, or photos, I would not leave them out for others to see or potentially steal. It has happened before, and when my car was judged at the Dearborn and PA shows, I stayed with the car and kept my eye on my "literature". After they were done I locked all of it up in the trunk.

As for the window sticker, I personally think every car should have one. They were installed at the factory and were on the car when one purchased it, or should have been. The law was that only the owner could remove it. If you look at some vintage dealer sponsored drag cars, the stickers were still on the cars when raced.

From my experience the judges count a window sticker as literature. Plus people love to stop and read them, they get a kick out of how cheap these cars were.

1970cs

I have judged and been judged, I also think that the three OCA logo pieces is excessive! But rules are rules.

As far being extra clean, trailer queens compared to driven cars is another story, again i'll cut some slack on driven cars anytime.

Spirit items I will agree that I do worry about leaving (while judging) cause most things are a grab item! I do tie down my portable dvd player which runs an official Oldsmobile sales dvd.

On the fire extinguisher, I thought I heard some where that there now checking for a sufficent charge? I have mine painted the same color as my car and to boot an OCA logo on it.

I focus on the judging sheet as it stands, and then nit pick for non o.e. pieces unless specified by the rules!

Pat

Tedd Thompson

Peter in all the judged events I've participated in they did not want a build photo album leaning baby dolls or easel photo history.,don't know why but i was told not to put my stuff out till after the judging was complete, probably it was a distraction.

No hot potato here just a discussion.......Tedd

stevengerard

I would really want to go to this meet, heck, its practically in my back yard. I think it would be fun to get judged but wondering how frustrating it would be in the end. My car is definitely a driver thus radial tires, new shocks etc so it will be picked apart. But then again I even have an original screen for the OAI heat pipe, date coded vacuum thermo switch and the original open-faced alternator - who would even notice that stuff.

I too feel the documents are goofy, I appreciate them at car shows but a judged event is about the car - isn't it.

joe_padavano

Since we've meandered onto the OCA judging topic, I'll add some comments on my experiences and thoughts. I was a judge for the combined H/O class at Sturbridge, MA in 2010. I had not judged before but consider myself pretty knowledgeable about these cars. I was pretty surprised by the fact that there is no standardized database of what is or isn't correct for the cars being judged and the majority of the judges were newbies without a lot of experience in technical correctness for their respective class. Consider that the class-winning car in the 68-72 performance class at Seven Springs in 2009 was a 1968 "W-30" with the W-36 side stripes and emblems clearly in the wrong location. What part of "clone" was not clear...

Lacking a good, factual database, it is difficult for most judges to know what is or isn't correct. Worse, there was no firm direction on how many points to deduct for apparent incorrect items. It seemed that the vast majority of cars at Sturbridge were "First Place" cars, so the trophies became participation awards in my opinion.

The whole "period accessories" argument is a slippery slope. I think that someone who has correctly restored a very rare car (one of 54 1966 W-30s, for example) deserves more recognition than someone who has assembled one from parts. That gets into the whole "dealer-installed accessories" argument, but if a dealer had installed a Chevy motor, would that be "correct"?

I put reproduction window stickers in the same category as clone cars. From a judging standpoint, something that got printed out yesterday on a desktop inkjet printer is worthless. Show me the real window sticker from the selling dealership and I'll be impressed. More to the point, a person who has that original window sticker should get greater consideration than someone who wrote a check for a reproduction.

Speaking of clone cars, at the judges breakfast at Sturbridge I specifically asked about clone cars - for example, a 1972 "W-30" that didn't have an "X" engine code. Ed Konsmo did not provide a useful answer to that question.

pcard

Hey Steven - I hope you do go regardless. I have radial tires, new Bilstien shocks and a "not so close" reproduction radio. I am driving 1000 miles to go to the show - I do not want to have to listen to AM radio the whole way! I guess my attitude is - here is my car - tell me wht you like about it. Ido not really care if I get 900 points - it will be fun.
Joe - I agree on the window stickers - but I do not think having an original should add points, nor do I think not having a window sticker at all, repro or original, should deduct points either; this is not something that a usual buyer would have retained. I think a car should be judged on its nuts and bolts. Finding an original build sheet is pretty cool - but should not put me ahead of another car which is a better restoration.
But as Pat says - the rules are the rules.
I am very surprised that the judging is not done according to a defined checklist and points schedule. I would expect to recieve the same penalty for a non OEM radio in 2013 as I do in 2014.
Perhaps we should have a prize for cars restored most faitfully to their original documented condition, and another for those like mine which have recieved upgrades, even if period correct.
I am not surprised there is no database of correctness; this would be a huge project.
As I have seen in other threads there are many interpretatins of what was correct. I remember the big discussion on what was the correct crank pulley for a Y72 option on a 1970 Cutlass, and I am not sure if that was even ever resolved.
Perhaps it is a good thing there is no difinitive authourity - if there was then what would we have to talk about?

joe_padavano

Having the original window sticker and/or build sheet is one way to tell if the car is original or not. One of my pet peeves (yes, there are many...) is that EVERY restored musclecar you see today has EVERY SINGLE available option installed on it, along with a fourteen page writeup on ebay telling how rare it is, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, it's rare - it's one-of-none because all those options were added when the car was restored. The reality is that when these cars were new, most musclecars were ordered with bare bones options, because 1) the options added weight and 2) they options added cost. The latter was the main issue, because the primary buyers of these cars were young males without a lot of disposable income. Now that every single restored musclecar is "rare", none of them are. I have a friend with a 1967 GTO convertible with factory shoulder belts front and rear. This car is not restored (it's a rusted mess, actually) so these are truly rare factory-installed parts. Similarly my 68 W-30 has power windows, power seat, UHV ignition, and other rare parts. It's also not restored, so I didn't add them. Unfortunately, once it's done you won't be able to tell that, since there's no build sheet or window sticker.

Sorry for the rant. Back to our regularly scheduled thread...

stevengerard

I will go if I can and will have my car judged, it will be fun to see what they say about it. I'm not concerned about points but wouldn't mind doing well.

having the original window sticker would be great but heck look how many of us have a Lansing car with no trace of any documentation, those of us with broadcast sheets are very, very lucky to have found or received those.

A lot of cars do have options added on over the years, some not. I would love to see the car with rear shoulder belts. My car is one of a handful of convertibles I have seen with shoulder belts but I have never seen a 72 or earlier car with back seat shoulder belts.

My convertible is really loaded, but only the W option and the rear speaker is on the broadcast card form what I remember. My hardtop has the original order form but no build sheet or window sticker - can't remember what's on the broadcast card, I think W30 and that's it.

69HO43

Consider that there's not a single person that knows everything about every car in a certain class. If they did, they could write a book and make a mint. There are some though that seem pretty close!

Car literature and window stickers and stuff are kinda non-issues with me. It's the car against the sheet, and that's pretty much it. But everyone should be playing under the same rules so if you have to have spirit items and such, then quit yipping about it and get them. They do not have to be pricey to count.

It really depends on the class you're putting your car in. If it's restored/original whatever, then it should look that way. Radial tires on a 65 Cutlass would not be an issue with me, in the event the other cars in the class have radials too. All on even ground. But if it's a restored car, and two cars are close, the car with the most original looking bias-ply tires - whether original or reproduction- will get a point or two more, for example.

And yes, you can tell a daily driver type from a trailer queen in most instances. Still, the overall cleanliness is important. Wouldn't be as tough on a non-trailer queen, but anyone that's been to any car show can tell you, if you don't at least make a good effort at cleaning, it shouldn't get full points.

Run to Rund

"The reality is that when these cars were new, most musclecars were ordered with bare bones options"

#24 of the 54 66 W30s has two "luxury" options: tinted glass, and deluxe seat belts (required to order the shoulder belts that it has also). No radio, no heater (heater delete is C48), manual steering and brakes. No chrome options.

I believe the OCA position is that they judge condition, but do not certify authenticity.

BTW, Sturbridge was 2010.

joe_padavano

DOH! Yeah, I knew that...

What, you still remember that long drive?

charlierogers

where and when is this show?

joe_padavano

http://www.oldsmobileclub.org/wp-con...ats_Flyer1.pdf

Boldsmobile

Yea that looooong drive was tough on me

charlierogers

thanks joe! my wife is really getting excited now that her pacecar is almost done. we will most likely be there.

Run to Rund

"What, you still remember that long drive? "
Yep, 2950 miles one way.
Looks like the 2015 show will be about 40 miles farther. . .what's 40 more miles, lol?