Johnd

The guy who sold me my doors yesterday showed me his 1970 442 convertible, which is amazing. While talking he mentioned that the car was originally gold with a green bench interior and top, and that he changes the top and interior to black and added bucket seats. When I asked him why he didn't keep it factory, he said he did by changing the cowl tag - is this legal? I found a site that will sell new trim tags for $235


http://www.trimtags.com/prices.html


So with this I could change the color of my car to anything I wanted. I have no plans to do this but wanted to know if other have done it, is it legal, and is there any way to prove it?

GAOldsman

Legal? In some states, unfortunately yes. Now if you mess with the VIN tag then you may have Federal issues...

Unethical? Yes.

Very hard to reproduce the "look" of the factory rivets without a ton of makeup and paint covering them so you cannot see the shoddy job in most cases.

Why not simply change the paint and interior to what you like and leave the cowl tag be?

oldcutlass

It's not illegal

GAOldsman

It is in Oklahoma Eric

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195350

oldcutlass

I stand corrected, it's not illegal here in Texas and many other states.

Koda

I don't know if it's illegal or not in any given state.

It's unethical for the same reason cloning is unethical. That reason is, even IF the current owner is a scrupulously honest person and has a sign out in front of the car at shows saying it's a clone, or it's a re-tag, since a nicely restored hunk of steel will outlast a likely overweight and or middle aged white guy, that car will outlast the current owner, and probably the next two or three.

Someone, somewhere, in the chain of owners is going to misrepresent that car, either through ignorance or greed, and it will get sold to someone as the real deal and fraud will have been committed. While some people think I am too cynical, everyone has heard of people being taken by fakes, and we are all concerned about documentation, so it very much does happen. Better to not make such a car in the first place. Feel free to mod what you want, but don't fake a w-30 and don't change the cowl tag, please.

MDchanic

+1, Koda.

- Eric

Koda

I should add an addendum. My 442, being a project, is getting a full resto sometime soon. I've amused myself by picking up options for it and will make it a very heavily optioned car, while abstaining from things like the power antenna because I don't want to chop holes in panels and patch others.

Point being, my cowl tag calls for rear speaker, which I have, but no rear defogger, and no driver remote mirror. However, I do have those options to add, and I shall, but I will not touch the trim tag. It will still be a numbers correct 442, but I will have added bolt on options, but there will be no proof they were factory, which is as it should be.

joe_padavano

First, there is nothing that ties a trim tag to a specific VIN except the long-gone production paperwork, which is why in all states but one this is not illegal. I'm at a loss as to how someone could PROVE that a trim tag had been replaced, at least on a Cutlass. Of course, I also can't find a reason to replace one unless someone is trying to counterfit something.

wmachine

Exactly. I get so tired of hearing people say that any of this type of altering is fine "as long as they are honest about it" or any other such qualifications. That is nothing but short-sightedness, and suffice to say it does not work. I've said it before and I'll say it again: There is one reason and one reason only to alter numbers: FRAUD.
No? Show me where a number has been altered to show a six cylinder to be original to a car?

Another note, in other states it may be legal to change the tag, but it is *not* legal to claim the car came the way the altered tag reads. Misrepresentation is not legal in any state and fortunately there have now been many successful prosecutions for fraudulent representations of cars that were sold.

Junkman

Many options were available as dealer installed options, so you can add them to your hearts content.

As to the trim tag being changed, it is mostly a personal choice, but I don't believe that it is illegal in most states. I know the person that makes the replacement trim tags, and unless something has changed, he doesn't make replacements with changes that are intended to misrepresent the vehicle. The replacements are for damaged tags.

My belief on "clones" is that it is your car, and you are free to do what you want with it. In my opinion, if it OK to modify an original car, then making a clone is nothing more than modifying an original car to be something that it originally wasn't. Modifications are modifications, you can't say that some modifications are OK, and others are not. I agree that as long as the cowl tag and VIN stay intact, do what you want.

wmachine

Sure someone could want to replace one that was damaged or unwittingly taken off for bodywork, but that would be a miniscule number of times, and not at all challenge the number produced for fraud.

Actually, I've seen a number of trim tags that have been reproduced and used for Olds A-bodies. Yes, all for fraud. I've studies them and and I can tell that they are repops.
If anyone suspects a re-pop, I'd be glad to take a look at it and let them know.

wmachine

One can add whatever they want. Why would dealer option even matter?

You opinion being a personal choice, but obviously I (and a few states) don't agree with you.
The person making the plates has no way of being certain what they are used for and certainly no control over how they are used. He may have good intentions, but that is ultimately worthless in a den of thieves.

Johnd

I agree that this type of altering shouldn't be allowed. I wanted a burgundy 442 and I bought a rough project so it would be correct in every way. I could have easily bought a nicer 442, had it painted, and changed the trim tag, but wouldn't feel right about doing it.

The Bug Man

What about this guy selling these on ebay? If someone is going to be fraudulent then they will find a way. Just do your due diligence before you buy a high end car....

charlierogers

I always enjoy these threads, but I don't think they really ever go anywhere. I guess when talking about this it begs the question whats real and whats not. how do you really know?????????? answer......... you don't period! any high value muscle car can be faked to any of the experts. its been done, it continues to be done and it wont stop being done. its sad but true. i have seen it done in the past {non olds} with high end restored and barn/garage find cars. in the end you must do your homework and hope for the best.

dc2x4drvr

Sad but true Charlie..

jensenracing77

I was going to have my W-30 body dipped till I found out that the cowl tag and VIN tag have to be removed. They said the acid will eat the cowl tag and the rivets for the VIN tag. After they told me that I wanted nothing to do with it. Not that it is illegal to remove and reinstall but I don't want anyone in the future to question it. Fakes have gotten out of hand.

1969w3155

Agreed!

TK-65

Lets pretend for a minute that we are dealing with Fords instead of Oldsmobiles. Early 60s Fords had all the info on a tasg attached to the door. The VIN was stamped into the fender apron.

If the car gets into a minor wreck that damages the drivers door. Are you supposed to junk the car over a bad door or do you remove the door tag and attach it to a new door? If the car needs a new door due to rust, do you scrap the whole car over door rust or do you remove the door tag and attach it to a rust free door? Are you committing two crimes, removing tags from two doors to repair one?

Second scenario, car gets hit in drivers fender and ruins the inner fender apron. Do you scrap the car because the VIN was damaged or do you remove and replace that metal? Or do you you remove the metal with the numbers, weld it onto a new apron, and replace it on the car. Is this car now rebodied?? Because the VIN has been removed?

Any and all of these things happened before the internet and before these cars were worth anything. At one time these cars were daily transportation and when damaged anything was done to get them back on the road.

66400

[QUOTE=TK-65;631830]Lets pretend for a minute that we are dealing with Fords instead of Oldsmobiles. Early 60s Fords had all the info on a tasg attached to the door. The VIN was stamped into the fender apron.

If the car gets into a minor wreck that damages the drivers door. Are you supposed to junk the car over a bad door or do you remove the door tag and attach it to a new door? If the car needs a new door due to rust, do you scrap the whole car over door rust or do you remove the door tag and attach it to a rust free door? Are you committing two crimes, removing tags from two doors to repair one?

Working in a body shop in 73-4 we didn't even think about that, we replaced a door whatever tag the door had on it stay 'cause no one cared one way or the other.


Same thing with front structure.


Henry

joe_padavano

This is why, for the federal laws, at least, it is COMPLETELY LEGAL to remove and replace VIN tags if reasonably required for repair. As an example, say you brand new Chevy pickup has a tree land on the cab roof. You can go to GM and buy a brand new cab, which does NOT come with a VIN tag. You are expected to transfer the VIN tag to the new cab shell. Body shops do this routinely. Read the law carefully - the part that is illegal is THE INTENT TO COMMIT FRAUD.

cutlassjoe

That's why my clone 442 has the original vin and cowl tag to show that it is a low optioned Cutlass S. I know I will own it for a long time but, if it is sold in the future I want to the person buying to know what it is.

TK-65

[QUOTE=66400;631841]Think about how many cars are now being restored based on tags that didnt come on the car. 66 Mustang gets hit in door, new door from another 66 gets out on, now that wrecked car has all new codes. Guy buys now rusted out car in 2012 and insists on repairing around tags that didnt even come on the car.

We all like to think these cars were always worth money and never had any body damage. Fact is unless we are the original owners we have no idea what happened to our cars before we got them. Most of them got handed down to teenagers and raw-hided to death. Wrecked, put in ditches, etc.

The Bug Man

So answer this...what's the differerence between a clone, a tribute, and a replica ??? I've seen threads in the forums here and articles in magazines that are favorable to these builds, depending on how they are described...
When you have a few collectors with unlimited pockets full of cash sucking up every desirable car out there (say for example the collector that owns FOUR of the original eight 1969 trans am convertibles) why the hell is an issue with anyone to make yourself a clone ?

jensenracing77

Nothing wrong with building a clone but altering numbers and tags and trying to sell it as a real thing is wrong. I think there are more Cutlasses out there with 442 emblems than there were 442s made. This is why real documentation is getting so much more valuable. This is also why I am very public about my W-30 build. If ever in the future I need to sell and someone questions it, I have good documents and a public source of everything I did to the car as it was being done.

joe_padavano

Absolutely nothing. All are synonyms for "fake".

There is no issue whatsoever if you make a clone for your personal use. The issue is when such a car is advertised as something special and thus valuable.

Let's be serious here. The only difference between a Cutlass and a 442 is the engine, trans, and suspension tuning. The sheet metal, chassis, and interior are exactly the same. All Olds did was bolt a bigger engine into a Cutlass.

It gets even worse with cars like Yenko or Nickey Chevys. How is a 427 installed at a Yenko garage any different than a 427 installed in my garage? Neither car was built by GM. Of course, once you go down that slippery slope, you get to cars like the 1966 Shelby...

Johnd

This is what I like about this board - people aren't trying to pass their cars off as something they are not. My older brother (53) just bought a 69 Chevelle and the 1st thing he did was put SS badges on it - he has no plans to sell the car, but still, if you bought a chevelle then be proud to own a chevelle. If you want an SS the spend the money or build from scratch like I am trying to do... Today I have a bucket of bolts and a pile of rust but in 2 years I hope to have a fully restored matching numbers 442

pacekar

that's why I like the Pontiacs all you have to do is spend $85.00 on the phs and it will tell the truth.

The Bug Man

I will always tell anyone that ask about my project that it is a clone. I plan on passing it down to my son in a few years. He is now 18, I will be 58 next month. I'm afraid that in 20-30 years when our generation passes on what is and isn't a clone won't matter much. So I say go build what makes you happy, enjoy the process and then drive it like you stole it. Maching # benchmark cars definitely have their place but most of us can't afford them. I just think "to each his own"

classicmuscle442

Boils down to morals, changing trim tag should be no different than a vin, in the end we all do not keep our cars forever, keep them with original tags and build them your way.

The Bug Man

I'll agree with that 100 %. Hell we are all reliving our teens and 20's in here and having a blast