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Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
Posts: 24,525
Pat, there are plenty of ways to create that patina look such as spilling milk on it and baking in the oven...
There appear to be some discrepancies in the option wordings that don't match other known build sheets and that makes me wonder about authenticity. The part that makes this so intriguing is no one except Lansing assembly workers would know if that sheet matches or not what was in circulation in the day.
If a Lansing build sheet is as rare as hen's teeth, which means that none of us has ever likely seen one, how do we know what the correct font is?
Originally Posted by anthonyP
Also, never seen FE2 described as '442 susp pkg'.
Never seen it where? On the build sheet from a different (non-Lansing) plant? Again, if no one has ever seen a Lansing build sheet before now, how do we know how that plant might have described various option codes? Would it necessarily have been exactly the same from plant to plant?
I'm not saying that this thing is legitimate. I'm just saying that, if none of us has ever seen a Lansing build sheet, how do we know what the details of a correct one looks like?
Every build sheet I've ever seen has has printing that is far less "perfect" than the printing on that one. No, I've never seen a Lansing build sheet. Other build sheets have font and printing that looks like this.
On the other hand, the 1972 Inspectors Guide calls FE2 the "442 Suspension Package".
If a Lansing build sheet is as rare as hen's teeth, which means that none of us has ever likely seen one, how do we know what the correct font is?
Never seen it where? On the build sheet from a different (non-Lansing) plant? Again, if no one has ever seen a Lansing build sheet before now, how do we know how that plant might have described various option codes? Would it necessarily have been exactly the same from plant to plant?
I'm not saying that this thing is legitimate. I'm just saying that, if none of us has ever seen a Lansing build sheet, how do we know what the details of a correct one looks like?
You are correct that there is no documentation to compare this Lansing build sheet's fonts and wording to, but does anyone know if all the build sheets were centrally printed or at each assembly plant?
Every build sheet I've ever seen has has printing that is far less "perfect" than the printing on that one.
There are areas of this build sheet where the printing is less than perfect. Many of the entries are offset to the right. I've circled a few of them below. Either whoever faked this took great pains to make it look less than perfect with the rips and tears, missing edges, discoloration, and less-than-perfect entries, or it is real. We really don't know because we have nothing to compare it to. We're making judgments based on what we think it should look like.
Just because Lansing was famous for being meticulous about not leaving build sheets in the car doesn't mean that it didn't happen once in a while over the millions of cars that came out of that plant over the decades.
Last edited by jaunty75; August 14th, 2017 at 09:12 AM.
Probably true, but the saying goes that the simplest explanation is most likely the correct one, not that it's always the correct one. In all likelihood, this is a fake build sheet. But we can't prove it one way or the other.
Probably true, but the saying goes that the simplest explanation is most likely the correct one, not that it's always the correct one. In all likelihood, this is a fake build sheet. But we can't prove it one way or the other.
Actually, Occam's Razor supports the idea that is a real build sheet. After all, what's more likely? That, in the millions of cars that came out of the Lansing plant, not a single one ever had a build sheet left behind, either on purpose or by accident? Or that, in the millions of cars that came through that plant, one might have occasionally slipped through? In my book, the latter is the more likely.
Then do so. And even if you can prove that this particular build sheet is a fake, you can't prove that no Lansing car ever left with one. To do that, you'd have to examine each of the 10 million or whatever cars that came out of that plant.
Each character on a build sheet or window sticker will line up with a character above it or below it. There may be an empty space on said line but the alignment is still there. Not every word or code aligns with the first character but it does align. Look at the real sheets that are posted and compare them with the fake. The fake has ever so slight misalignments. And the font is wrong which is a dead giveaway. I've studied these things enough to know what's legit and what's fake.
And another thing. The only acceptable form of proof that this build sheet is fake is to show us how it differs from a real one. But how can you show us a real one if Lansing build sheets don't exist?
Each character on a build sheet or window sticker will line up with a character above it or below it. There may be an empty space on said line but the alignment is still there. Not every word or code aligns with the first character but it does align. Look at the real sheets that are posted and compare them with the fake. The fake has ever so slight misalignments. And the font is wrong which is a dead giveaway. I've studied these things enough to know what's legit and what's fake.
This is no proof at all. We've already made the point that we don't know what a correct Lansing build sheet looks like, and comparing it to what build sheets from other plants look like only proves that it didn't come from one of those plants. But it doesn't prove it's not real. Show us what a REAL Lansing build sheet looks like (certainly they did exist at one time) and how this one differs, and then we'll have proof. Until then, it's just speculation.
What I'd really like to know is, why is it so important, to you and Mr. Padavano, that this be a fake build sheet? What would be so horribly wrong if turned out to be real? Would it destroy your world view? I, for one, think it would be excellent if this turned out to be a real build sheet. It would be the proverbial "exception that proves the rule." It would give all of us with Lansing-built cars a straw of hope to grasp at and a reason to tear our cars apart looking for one!
Relax. It doesn't mean two ***** to me. I don't care. You are the one litigating this. I have proof and that's it. The sheets came off the same printer as the window stickers. I have over 200 original Lansing stickers and they all are how I previously stated. For the record there have been 1970 Lansing build sheets found. It's not like nobody has ever seen a Lansing sheet. Those sheets look nothing like the sheets found in cars built in other plants. Matter of fact I may have an example of a 1972 sheet at home. And it looks nothing like the fake one posted here.
Relax. It doesn't mean two ***** to me. I don't care. You are the one litigating this. I have proof and that's it.
I'm relaxed just fine. And I'm "litigating" it? Now who needs to relax? If it "doesn't mean two *****" to you, then why did you respond at all? Apparently it does mean a **** or two to you.
I'm just having fun pointing out that nobody here, including you, has any way to prove that this is fake. Even the fact that it doesn't look like a 1972 Lansing build sheet doesn't prove that it's not real unless it's from the same year. I don't know what the year of this sheet is (does "6/78" mean June 1978?). There is no reason to assume that the factory's printer would have stayed the same over the decades or used the same typeface in 1962 as it did in 1972, 1978, 1985, or any other year. Equipment, including office equipment, changes over the years.
I know this a '69 Lansing build sheet which could be different, but I cannot find another '69 or '70 442 build sheet that lists FE-2 on it. Seems it was only listed if the FE-2 suspension was ordered on another model as an option.
I agree, there could be some build sheets that made it into Lansing built cars, especially if someone working the line had the old 'if you tell me to do something' syndrome and deliberately placed the build sheet in the car instead of the trash bin.
Has anyone ever spoken with someone who worked at the Lansing assembly plant about the build sheets and did this rule go for the other GM division's home assembly plants?
Someone had mentioned in the past that Anchor Motor Freight might have copies of documents for each vehicle it shipped. Is it possible they might contain a build sheet and still have the records?
Last edited by anthonyP; August 14th, 2017 at 10:30 AM.
There is no reason to assume that the factory's printer would have stayed the same over the decades or used the same typeface in 1962 as it did in 1972, 1978, 1985, or any other year. Equipment, including office equipment, changes over the years.
We don't have to assume. Since the internet solves most arguments we can see that in 1980 GM was still using the same printer to print out build sheets.
The weathering on this looks faked to me. Look at the whiteness of the unaltered paper and on the left that perfectly straight edge while the rest and all corners damaged. Someone could look at the paper itself and determine if it was the type of paper used back then. This is my take on it.
Someone could look at the paper itself and determine if it was the type of paper used back then.
Good point. A little forensic analysis of the paper should show whether it was made recently or is decades old. Of course, that's why the seller has it laminated, so it can't be easily tested!
Since the internet solves most arguments we can see that in 1980 GM was still using the same printer to print out build sheets.
The internet causes as many arguments as it solves. Second, I highly doubt Olds used only one printer for its build sheets across all of its factories and over all the decades it produced cars. And again, the build sheet you show is NOT a Lansing build sheet. So the fact that the build sheet in question does not look like it means nothing.
Let's see a known-authentic 1969 Lansing build sheet and compare it the one in question. Only then do we have a chance at getting an answer.
No, actually we're making judgements based on the fact that in HALF A CENTURY, not one Lansign build sheet has surfaced...
I put that in the same category as SMW 403s.
I must not know enough about this subject. I have what I thought were build sheets to a 70 Rallye 350 and I believe all Rallye 350 cars were built in Lansing. We also had the exact same sheets to a 70 W-30 that was the Sebring Yellow with blue interior and stripes. These sheets were marked A and B. I have seen one other car with the exact same sheets from Lansing. Maybe what I thought were build sheets are not? They do not look like what is posted. I will look for my Rallye 350 sheets and post them. maybe I can learn something new here.
I must not know enough about this subject. I have what I thought were build sheets to a 70 Rallye 350 and I believe all Rallye 350 cars were built in Lansing.
What you're describing may be what's known as a "broadcast card." These looked somewhat like old computer punch cards, and people, including me, have found these in Lansing-built cars.
Here's the one I found in a '73 Custom Cruiser I owned until a few years ago. It was built at Lansing.
You said company's change printers all the time. Proof is GM used the same style printers for over 15 years. Fact is the big three use machines until they are obsolete. The Camaro build sheet is exactly the same print as the known Olds sheets.
The 69 Lansing sheet I posted is from a known 69 Hurst Olds. That alone is proof the sheet in question is fake. I'm not sure why you asked to see something I already posted. Did you not click on the attachment?
I must not know enough about this subject. I have what I thought were build sheets to a 70 Rallye 350 and I believe all Rallye 350 cars were built in Lansing. We also had the exact same sheets to a 70 W-30 that was the Sebring Yellow with blue interior and stripes. These sheets were marked A and B. I have seen one other car with the exact same sheets from Lansing. Maybe what I thought were build sheets are not? They do not look like what is posted. I will look for my Rallye 350 sheets and post them. maybe I can learn something new here.
Those sheets marked A and B are Lansing build sheets.
Last edited by TK-65; August 14th, 2017 at 02:39 PM.
I clicked on it. I question whether it's actually a build sheet. It looks more like a larger version of a broadcast card. But if it is actually is a build sheet for a '69 Olds from the Lansing plant, then fine, the OP's build sheet is a fake. I never said that it wasn't. I was just asking for proof that it wasn't, and people's gut feelings, arguments about fonts and printers, and "no, it shouldn't look like that"-type, comments are not proof.
What you're describing may be what's known as a "broadcast card." These looked somewhat like old computer punch cards, and people, including me, have found these in Lansing-built cars.
Here's the one I found in a '73 Custom Cruiser I owned until a few years ago. It was built at Lansing.
I clicked on it. I question whether it's actually a build sheet. It looks more like a larger version of a broadcast card. But if it is actually is a build sheet for a '69 Olds from the Lansing plant, then fine, the OP's build sheet is a fake. I never said that it wasn't. I was just asking for proof that it wasn't, and people's gut feelings, arguments about fonts and printers, and "no, it shouldn't look like that"-type, comments are not proof.
Actually it is proof. You just like to argue about everything. Fact is you have no idea what these sheets look like.
So on the serious side. I just really want to understand. Are people saying that Lansing Cars never had a build sheet or that none were EVERY left in a car? Also, at the risk of being slammed, If it is being said that every plant used the same printer, paper, etc, why is the sheet posted in #25 above so different then the other build sheets posted here.
Found them. We had these very same sheets for a very rare color combo 70 W-30. I am still trying to track that car down.
Just so I am not confusing the different documents:
The build sheet has the options written in plain terms in the lower halve, plus the part codes in the upper halves. Includes dealership name and assembly plant. Usually found under front seat, behind rear seat, on top of gas tank, or behind door pane.
The broadcast card is the index card sized document with just a few codes noted, including the W-codes. Usually found behind bucket seat shell or under front/rear seat.
The window sticker has all of the options and prices listed, including the dealership name.
What are the legal size (?) documents with code numbers listed that Eric posted called, and where are they usually found in the vehicle? Are these only found in Lansing built cars or also those built at other plants?
Just so I am not confusing the different documents:
The build sheet has the options written in plain terms in the lower halve, plus the part codes in the upper halves. Includes dealership name and assembly plant. Usually found under front seat, behind rear seat, on top of gas tank, or behind door pane.
The broadcast card is the index card sized document with just a few codes noted, including the W-codes. Usually found behind bucket seat shell or under front/rear seat.
The window sticker has all of the options and prices listed, including the dealership name.
What are the legal size (?) documents with code numbers listed that Eric posted called, and where are they usually found in the vehicle? Are these only found in Lansing built cars or also those built at other plants?
These are what I have always known as 70 Lansing build sheets. They are very rare to find in a Lansing car. I am for sure not an expert on build sheets but TK-65 is saying what I have always believed them to be. The other format build sheet is non Lansing built cars. That other format I have found in a California built car.
August 14th, 2017, 06:50 AM
