I was raised, and, in fact, taught in school to expect just that, and I have never been disappointed.

If you DON'T expect everyone you meet to try to rip you off, then everyone will.

The Romans were the first to post CAVEAT EMPTOR in the marketplace, and they understood the world well.

It was about five strips out of the pack, and he had to risk his life to go up there.

None of that is important. I asked him to drive by, stand in the parking lot next door, look at the problem area from there (it was clearly visible), and give me an estimate, NOT to come by with a helper, rig scaffolding, belay himself up there, and do the job. He said that he normally did not do roofing, but that he would look at it and tell me if he could do it, or, if not, recommend someone who was better suited.

If he had looked at it, called me on the phone, told me what he had to do and how much it would have cost, and asked me whether I wanted him to do the job, it would have been fine. He didn't do that, though. He just went ahead and did it, which was NOT what had been agreed. Legally, he volunteered to do it, and I could have refused to pay him at all and won in court, PLUS, he was trespassing (as he did not have my permission to be on the roof), and I could have had him charged with that.

It's the same thing in Allan's case.
He asked for an estimate. It was a stainless steel exhaust system on a late model car for pete's sake - there are not likely to be any surprises.
Put car on lift, examine exhaust system, generate estimate. Simple.
But instead, once they had his vehicle in their possession, they violated his explicit instructions and took his car apart, which is, essentially, vandalism.

If you went in for an appendectomy and woke up to find that the surgeon had done liposuction as well while you were under, without asking your permission, and was now billing you the full price (not covered by insurance because it's cosmetic), you could have him arrested for battery. Same thing.

- Eric

 

IMO - there's a few things wrong with Allen R's example.
Maybe it's a Canadian thing. You couldn't do that in Illinois!
And, if it was a franchised shop, a complaint to the franchise would get you a complete refund!!
I managed a franchised shop in a town near Joliet. Illinois.
Example; Had a guy needing a muffler, said he had it put on at our shop 6 yrs. ago., but had no paperwork.
My tech said it was one of our old mufflers, but without paperwork, what was I to do?
Charged him around $80, he paid it, and left.
Next day, I was told by our general manager to refund the whole amount in cash, and drive it to his house!
He complained to the franchise! The GM told me I was right, but it wasn't worth the hassle!
Never would I remove a system without a price, or do any work without authorization!
If the person couldn't afford it done correctly, I'd recommend a temporary fix, without a warrantee, just to solidify a relationship, and get 'word of mouth' out there.
Had a lot of repeat customers!
I feel you've recourse there, go to the government office that issues their license!

 

Caveat emptor does not even relate to this matter. It means buyer beware when purchasing goods or merchandise that do not have a warranty. So what your saying is there was no possible way that the guy could have misinterpreted that you wanted an estimate only.

In the exhaust system case with Allen, since he has done business with this shop previously, you suppose there could have been a breakdown in communication somewhere also?


So lets say you went in for the appendectomy, and they found something that was immediately life threatening, they should sew you back up, and wait for your approval to fix it??

Come on Eric be realistic here, lets compare apples to apples!

Back when I was in the industrial supply business, I had customers that I would price things higher because the cost of doing business with them is higher. There must be enough profit in there to deal with these individuals. I also would evaluate my customer base annually and cut the 10% that was not worth the effort in trying to maintain. They just were not profitable vs the amount of my time they would take up! Then I would spend that extra time to bring new more profitable business.

 

First e-mail:
"So, if this is the sort of job you can do, I'd be interested in having you come by and having a look, and if it's not, I'd be interested in knowing whether there's anyone in the area that you'd recommend who's comfortable climbing around like a squirrel."

Second e-mail:
"Easy enough to look if you want to, though. We're the house right next to the post office. If you park in the post office parking lot, and look up at the peak of the roof, about 3-5 feet forward of the front chimney, you can see the spot, just below the cap shingles, where one or two are missing. "

The non-conversational part of his response to the e-mail above:
"I'll swing by tomorrow to have a look."

How he got from "have a look" to "erect scaffolding and safety lines running across the roof of the house to the other side (anchor holes are still in the driveway), buy shingles, bring up a helper, and do the entire job without consulting you further" I'll never know.

Whole different thing - that's included in the permission form you sign.
You give them permission to do a specific thing, and to fix anything immediately dangerous that they have to fix in doing the first thing, but not to do any more than that.

- Eric

 

This thread is getting kinda philosophical, don't think I was ready for this on Sunday morning.

I digress, Carry on.

 

Very true. And counter point, there are also consumers who are all out for a free ride. I'm not one of them. I worked hard for my $$ and expected fair value in return. I also checked the shop labor rates when I walked in the door. I checked on line for the cost of a muffler for this car (94.50 at the time) and added markup (40%), labor, new hangers, oxy, etc. I'm not an uninformed or stupid walk in. I was expecting around a 200.00 cost factor. Anything close I would have approved in a heartbeat.

Why? Let's start with I thought they were reputable because I had used them before, and second, I didn't have time to stand around and wait for them to open that morning. I had the RO done up the day before and simply dropped off the car/key the next morning. Let's see now - I needed to be at work at 06:30 (yeah, A.M.) They don't open till 08:00. I think what I did was REASONABLE given those circumstances.

As far as pipe degradation?? C'mon. I did the SAME visual and metal tap test they do all the way down the pipe. Even checked the top of the pipe where it was possible. It was fine. And not meaning to slam you, but where do you get off supporting a group of ding dongs that were supposed to visually inspect ONLY, NO WORK DONE till authorized?? I would have at least had the OPTION to say, no thank you, or just do the muffler and they could leave the car parked on the lot till I came to pick it up. They could also have refused to do the work if they felt it wasn't going to be a good repair. That happens all the time with shops. This wasn't something they had to take apart to find the problem - it was the muffler/rear exhaust extension.

Look, I get the concept of basic economics, I didn't even have to pay attention in University to get that. However, the concept of doing the repair myself? That was part of the point behind this whole thread (if you go back to the beginning), and a sore point that 74 Omega and rennoc442 made; 'just get someone if a pickup to do it' if you can't do it yourself, but don't bitch about shops and rates?? Really???..... But I disagree with you on the diagnosis. You will never get my money if you aren't willing to give me a free diagnosis. You mean to say that in your dealership, you would NEVER allow a customer to test drive a car before buying it? They would be happy with "This is a great car you will love to drive, let's write it up?? Oh, and we're gonna charge you for the gas you use on the test drive??? I think not. The way I see it the repair industry also has standards of care to ADVISE before work is done, especially when it's spelled out in Black and White - or did you miss that in the post?

I will never pay you top dollar just because you say it could be really expensive on an over the phone quote. In fact, most shops up here refuse to do that for fear of losing customers with what will ultimately be perceived as unaffordable. Then there's a safety issue that doesn't get fixed. That's why the phone quote up here doesn't work. There's a happy middle of the road that everyone is happy with.

Well, I'm glad you're cracked up about my $$$ problem on that event. And as far as negative experiences? Most business that fall in that category do go belly up, for good reason. Unrealistic expectations?? I don't think mine were - maybe you have some crystal ball that looks into the past to explain otherwise??? I really fail to see how Burger King, or MacDonalds or Wendy's etc has anything to do with this. If I buy a burger from them and it tastes like crap?? They'll give me my money back and apologize. I heard no apology for what happened at this muffler shop. Do I expect my money back? No, I pretty much was forced to authorize the 'full blown exhaust replacement' because they can't read a R.O. Time for a time out now.

 

Allan, all I was alluding to was that these things happen, usually by an assumption or a miscommunication. Also my point is we only get one side of a story that has 2 sides.

The Burger King reference is that they do it your way. In business we mostly do it our way. Mechanics shops are not like Burger King, there are Corporate and Governmental policies and rules they must adhere to. There are somethings our service dept. does that I don't agree with, but my names not on the top of the building.

As a salesperson, I ask a lot of questions before I test drive someone in a multitude of cars and trucks, but that's a different subject and I'm a good salesman!

We get a lot of vender bashing around here, some called for and some not. I prefer to get all the details prior to making a judgement. The pricing that businesses charge is up to them, just as the decision to business with them is up to you.

We all have opinions, some agree and some don't.

 

If you think that food service operations don't have to adhere to a lot of regulations, you're dreaming!

Yes, but the point of this discussion is that he did not have a choice regarding price - he asked them to tell him the price, and they took his car apart and threw away his parts, so that he had to pay whatever price they set.
That is unethical, and, in most jurisdictions, explicitly illegal.

That is the opposite of being able to decide whether to patronize a business based on price.

- Eric

 

Ok, so you got my side of the story. It's based on fact. You're right that there's another side to the story; it's called incompetency by the bozo who removed the exhaust without authorization. And yes, there must have been a 'miscommunication' but it was the shops internal goof - they made unwarranted assumptions that I would just say yes???. So their miscommunication by 'qualified professionals' is something that I should accept and be prepared to pay big $$$ for? Should I have just bent over and dropped my drawers to make this easier for them? I was taken hostage and released without a shot fired.

And no one's disputing your ability. I respect your general input to the site and value a lot of the tech info you contribute. If I lived in TX, I would prolly enjoy being neighbors with you.

So if I walked into the muffler shop and started barraging them with questions about what I need, how do they know that, can I watch, can I please go in there and see for myself, what kind of parts will they use, etc.... you really think they would tolerate that the same way a customer who wants to buy a car does? Never in a million years. Your occupation is significantly different and as you stated you don't agree with all the service goings on but your name's not on the dealership. No comparison at all.

I based going to this shop on implied trust that the R.O. would be followed and price would be determined BEFORE work started. Kind of like buying a car right? You determine the make/model/year and price before the deal gets approved? Incredibly similar comparison IMO.

Well case in point is I'm not bashing the vendors there. This one was called for, and while I know you would like to get all the details, it's in the past now so what you decide is really moot. I certainly respect your entitlement to your opinion. I am equally entitled to my statements of fact. I actually wish I had never seen this thread, because it brings back a lot of bad memories for a car that I really loved.

I'm glad at least someone here 'gets it'. Thank you for your voice Eric.

 

Amen. I cannot believe that really happened.

There is a HUGE difference between requesting a QUOTE and DOING the work. Whatever went wrong at Allan's muf shop was either their miscommunication or a set-up hostage job. Allan was a super nice guy though. I would have either seen them in court or been put in jail, either one...

Eric was able to get a good compromise - glad that went over without violence!

As for the surgery analogy... What they do to you when you are asleep can be anything and you cannot approve or disapprove it. Scarey indeed. When I had back surgery, everything was arranged to be in network. A month later I got a 2700 bill for a guy out of network. The hospital said they "just wanted an extra helper - just in case". In short, i told them and my surgeon that doing unapproved things like that when I am out was totally unethical. They knew what network I was in and they did not even bother to try to pre-auth it through my ins. After telling them the way i saw it - twice, they wrote it off.

The customer always seems like the vulnerable one and we have to stand up for ourselves... This is a big reason i try to do everything I can, myself. Sure, it is often hard sweaty work, but it is rewarding when you are done, unlike battling a company that tries to do you wrong.

 

I can add to that. This is at the shop I work at on weekends.

"Cheap work is not good....Good work is not cheap."

 

Ok, it's not that I do not agree with you Allen and Eric, it should not have happened. In my profession, you can only imagine the amount of times assumptions are made by customers.! They call and complain to the owner, who then starts the crap rolling down hill, until it gets blown all out of proportion... only to find out that the customer assumed with no promise made by anyone in the organization.

By this point we have to eat it!

 

Rob, I can't believe it happened, but it did. I have never gone back there and if peeps around here ask me, I tell them to stay the heck away from them. I have enjoyed working on all my cars to the extent I can. Just sometimes I don't have someone like Richard handy to come over and do some welding for me.

Well, thanks. I agree; just wanted to share that experience in the nature of this thread topic.

Far as sales goes, every time I've bought new or used, I was in full control of what I wanted and what I would buy/pay. I met a few salespeople who were really pushy. I just walked away from them and found someone who would listen to what I wanted, and be able to understand. Some of the best were able to point out (subtly) a few things I hadn't considered. They also gave me the time to make up my mind before committing to the sale. I suspect you are one of those folks. I know a lot of times if feels like everyone is in the plumbing business where you only have to acknowledge 2 things: Payday is Friday, and $hit runs down hill.

 

And 3 - realization that **** running downhill is the reason you get a paycheck!

Like a buddy of mine who works in the sewage treatment plant once told me:
"Job security really exists here 'cause everyone's got to go and it is hard to find people who will work in real **** everyday"...

 

Yes sir, we all realized early on - **** does not flow uphill! The object in life is to be on top of the hill.