chrisneu68olds

New problem today. My '71 wont start...
When I turn the key there is nothing happening. The Gen light is dim before attempting to crank and when I try the light gets brighter. Battery is good, have lights, but no click, no nothing, just as if it was in gear. I moved the old column shift back and forth, jiggled a few things, nothing. I was thinking of getting a remote start switch but not sure if that will even fire it up to get her in the garage.

I contacted the prior owner and he suspects that either the neutral safety switch or ignition switch on the column has failed. He said that he pulled the ignition switch off of some spare parts he had lying around so he is leaning towards that. As a MAW I will probably replace both.

Since my hazard switch is also broken (and I suspect it is causing the left front turning signal to also not work) I am pulling the steering column in a few days to fix these problems. The car was originally a column shift (auto) and now that I have a floor shift (also auto) and I want to convert the column to a floor.

Question; Is there a parts provider that sells "covers" (see attached) to where I can simply remove the old shifter cover and replace with one that is a floor shifter column? Or should I just scrap the plan and find a floor shift steering column and move on?

Thanks all.

toymobile

I have never heard of a COVER to elem-ate Column shifter, You need a floor shift column and move on, GOOD LUCK on finding one.

joe_padavano

Actually, Speedway Motors sells exactly this cover. I don't have any first-hand experience with it, and it may be plastic, but it's in their catalog.

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Column...FVAXHwodfmIA2Q

oldcutlass

In the past I've ground off the clevis part, filled, and painted, then mounted a tach there.

m371961

I would advise finding your problem by some troubleshooting before changing anything or hunting for the source by part replacement. The neutral switch is easy to check with a continuity test, and testing for voltage at the starter S terminal with a meter or light is simple. The starter current flows from the ign. switch through the neutral switch to the starter. I would start by checking batt. volts before and during crank attempt.

Octania

Patrick, I am just about fed up with your "logical thinking" and "sensible troubleshooting" approach.

just kidding of course

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...on-switch.html

post #24 has a diagram of a Forrd-enhanced system, your I.S. and NSS wiring will be similar.

Work from the starter/ solenoid to battery...

m371961

Good thing you're kiddin, Oct.
Don't want the OP to get confused with the idea and drawing of the "better idea"(?) remote solenoid used by some.

chrisneu68olds

I dont have the experience to do that. I have heard of people doing it though. If I did it, it would look terrible!

I will try the neutral switch test you suggest before replacement. If that passes at least I can eliminate that as a possible cause. Thanks for the suggestion. As far as the battery goes, it is fully charged so that is probably not it.

chrisneu68olds

I thought I had seen one before somewhere. Thanks Joe. It is plastic according to their website though. Might not be a bad stop-gap until I find a column that works better.

chrisneu68olds

Steps taken so far:

• Ran a jumper between the purple wires on the NSS, no start
• Ran a test light on each purple wire, attempted start, one wire lit, the other one didn't
• Ran a jumper from + of battery to purple wires, attempted contact with both, no start
• Checked connection from + of battery to starter solenoid, wires looked good, none melted or disconnected
• When attempting to crank I moved column gear lever up and down and noticed something that leads me to believe the NSS IS working - When in P, volt gauge was around 12v, when moved into R, the volt gauge dropped a little to around 11v, moved to N, back up to 12v, D, S, and L, 11v again. I think the small drop in voltage might indicate that power is moving to NSS unless I am misreading something -

So with that, I am thinking the ignition switch on column or am I still chasing wild geese?

oldcutlass

When you measured the voltage across the battery what did you get? If you ran a jumper to the purple wires and it resulted in a no crank situation, I'm leaning towards a bad connection at the starter solenoid or a bad solenoid.

MDchanic

Good. At least you're making progress.


Huh?

After all that testing, where did you get that from?

Go back a few squares.
You put a meter on the purple wires at the NSS plug and turned the switch to START.
One wire lit up 12V. That means the ignition switch is good.
The other wire did not.
So then you attached a 12V jumper to the second wire, which goes right to the starter solenoid, and nothing happened.
This means that there is a problem between that point, the starter, and the battery.

Now just check the rest of it.
Clip a 12V jumper to the S terminal of the solenoid and see if the starter turns.
Then put a meter on the same spot and turn the switch to START and measure the voltage to the battery (-) terminal.

If you do get voltage, but it is below about 11 or 11.5, you may just have too much resistance between the NSS and the solenoid, causing inadequate current flow to actually pull in the solenoid.

If you do not get voltage, then there is a break in the connection between the NSS and the solenoid.

Just think this out and proceed logically. If you need to, put a sheet of tracing paper on the schematic in the CSM and trace the starter circuit, then redraw it and look at it until it makes sense to you. At that point, you wil be able to figure out where the problem is.

- Eric

m371961

Agree with (other) Eric. Again, what voltage do you read at battery at rest and voltage when trying to crank? With jumper in place, what voltage do you see at solenoid small wires when they are connected and on the wires when removed ?

m371961

Good reply MD. I don't have the knack for explaining troubleshooting through this media very well, but trying to improve.

chrisneu68olds

I meant to say Ignition Starter Switch. After your notes I think I know what you are saying...I found my wiring diagram finally. For some reason I thought that it was going from the NSS to the ISS, but it is the other way around then?

Let me know if I am correct in my assertion;
When the key is turned current flows thru the purple wire FROM the ignition starter switch the NSS, then passes from the NSS to the solenoid causing the circuit to close activating the solenoid.

Wouldn't jumping from the battery to the solenoid with no result, not even a click prove the solenoid or starter is bad?

12v

Didn't get as far as that yet.

MDchanic

Right.


Yes, or that there is a bad connection between the two, or a bad ground.

If there is essentially zero resistance between the starter case and the battery (-), then you know that the ground is good.

- Eric

oldcutlass

!2v even = very low battery. Can you give it a charge? While your there clean both posts and cable terminals. Once the battery is charged take a 12ga jumper wire and run it from the positive battery terminal to the starter solenoid S terminal. It has a purple wire connected to it.

chrisneu68olds

I connected my jump pack it to see if it would start due to the battery being low, same result. I know my battery is a little old but when it craps out I get weak lights and at least a click and dim or lights go out when I try to start. The lights don't dim at all during the start attempt so that leads me to believe there is not a large load being placed on the system like a weak battery.

chrisneu68olds

I'll try it out during the evening when we get down to a balmy 90*.

oldcutlass

Try the jumper wire from the battery to the solenoid like I stated above and see if it cranks. Like I said I believe you have a bad connection at/or bad solenoid.

chrisneu68olds

Made a homemade remote started and set the jumper on the solenoid on the A terminal (battery side) and the S side (ignition side) and shorted the wires together....nothing but sparks...no noise, no click, no nothing. Bad solenoid then?

MDchanic

Sounds like it.

I'd pull it and check the assembly out of the car.

- Eric

oldcutlass

X2 pull and bench test it. Solenoids can be had through your local auto parts store.

chrisneu68olds

That is my Saturday project. I have never had a solenoid just 'die' like that but the starter and solenoid are far from new. I'll check it before I reinstall too.

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. I will follow up.

oldcutlass

Its basically a big coil that magnetizes and draws the plunger back to move the starter drive forward, there is a big copper washer that then comes in contact to energize the starter. They can get worn and short. Most just get pregnant and bind.

chrisneu68olds

Probably died of heat stroke.

chrisneu68olds

Turns out it was both the starter and the solenoid that bombed out. When I removed the old starter it failed all bench tests. I bench tested the new one, installed it and it fired right up.

As an aside, I suspect that the starter that I pulled out was very old. The solenoid didn't even have the neutral terminal on it.

oldcutlass

What do you mean by neutral terminal? Either way glad your back in the saddle.

chrisneu68olds

The neutral switch which I believe the purple NSS wire goes to which in this case is not being used. The terminal was not even on the old solenoid. I didnt take a pic of the old one before I dropped it off at the store.

oldcutlass

That is not how a gm starter is wired. The NSS wire is the ignition switch terminal (labeled S). The other small terminal would be the resistance wire bypass wire that normally goes to the coil+ terminal when you have a points type of ignition (labeled R).

MDchanic

The one that says "Neutral Switch" is the R terminal, which connects to the coil (+) terminal via the yellow wire.

The one that says "Ignition Switch" is the S terminal, which connects to the neutral safety switch, and after that to the ignition switch, via the purple wire.

- Eric

oldcutlass

Thanks for the correction, I don't know what I was thinking...DOH fixed my original post.

MDchanic

So, incidentally, to make explicit my implication (sometimes I'm just too subtle ), if he had the purple wire connected to the R terminal, as indicated in the photo, instead of the S terminal, that would be a really good reason why the car wouldn't start.

- Eric

chrisneu68olds

The old solenoid had no R terminal (and it was not simply missing, by design it was not there) and I have not connected anything to that new R terminal on the new solenoid. In fact, short of digging around there was not even a wire that would go to the R terminal anyway, it was not being used.

oldcutlass

I would assume somewhere in there is a yellow wire that used to run to your coil + from that terminal when it had a points distributor. I'm also assuming you currently have an HEI.

chrisneu68olds

Your assumption is correct sir.