jrzybob442

Is GM Planning to Destroy Their History – And Who Cares?

OK, history is a bunch of dry facts written down by a crusty old professor who hasn’t seen the light of day in 15 years, so who cares – right? WRONG!

That’s not what we’re talking about here – we're talking about is all that stuff that we use in our hobby like production figures, engineering drawings, ads, brochures, assembly info, casting numbers, and such.

WHAT’S GOING ON
GM thinks of this stuff as either "junk" or "secret sauce" that is somehow going to give the Japs an upper hand in vehicle design, like Nissan is looking for the plans for a 1970 ram air hood – yeah right.

BUT inside information tells us that what GM is really up to is declaring these materials "secret" so that they can destroy them! Yup, they have already told the GM Heritage Center, where you can go and look up stuff that all engineering drawings are off limits – stuff that shows up in the assembly manuals already!

Why do they want to destroy the materials? Because then they don’t have to PAY to preserve it, period. Getting rid of documents and Artifacts (even cars and such) means that they can spend whatever they are on this stuff some other place. History means nothing to the bigwigs at GM, most of whom couldn’t tell a Corvette from a Cadillac (oh, that’s right nowadays, they are the same car).

We already know that over the past 15 years, they have sent lawyers out to those selling GM reproduction parts and tried to muscle up on these people to milk a few dollars out of them or shut them down, with stupid arguments that somehow GM is liable if the part fails. In some cases they have made people get insurance coverage when they are producing a T-Shirt with the premise that if the person wearing the shirt could sue GM if they were involved in an accident with the shirt on!

GM doesn’t give a poop about the very people that are preserving their history and cannot see the link between their past glory and how that relates to customer loyalty and selling new cars. "This is not your father’s Oldsmobile". Yup, and that’s why there is no Oldsmobile Division anymore, you mopes.

WHAT WE ARE DOING
Well, what is surprising is that it doesn’t have to be this way. Believe it or not, the federal government’s National Archives, the National Endowment for the Arts and the Parks Commission actually have grants money available to catalog and preserve these materials and artifacts. And now is the time to go after this money, while the fed still owns a major holding in GM – where they can exact leverage on the mopes to do what is right.

There is a group in place called the Auto History Preservation Society www.ahpsoc.org who is putting together projects for how to get the job done. The group needs YOUR HELP, by getting on their list to show GM that we are serious and concerned.

WHAT YOU NEED TO DO – RIGHT NOW!
Simply go to www.ahpsoc.org and sign up. All it takes is to click on the "subscribe" button that appears on almost every page of the website, enter your e-mail and your name.

By showing support for this program, we can avert a tragedy, and in the end it might even save you money – imagine that. Come on, it takes 5 minutes to join, so let’s get going!

Bob G

RAMBOW

uh... and your proof is where?

You didn't the RE: RE: RE: RE: at the top and the
"please forward this to 20 people" at the bottom so i'd know for sure you got it from a legit source.

jrzybob442

Yo Ben. If you want, why don't you go over to the GM Heritage Center and ask for some Oldsmobile Engineering drawings of the Dashboard for your 66 - something that was available last year. See what they tell you. Better yet, go make up a T-shirt with the 442 emblem on it - just one copy for yourself and go wear it in front of the GM building - and hope a GM lawyer doesn't see you.

Did you go to the website? Did you read anything? Did you do anything of the sort? Nah, you just fired off a negative response. Good for you - you are one heck of a stand up guy. We need more guys like you in this hobby, protecting the interests of all of us.

If you would have read what we are talking about (or even the end of the post) you would have found that we already have a source of funding - we just want a show of support. But, of course, you are more interested in b-breaking than doing anything positive. Keep up the good work. The hobby can really use people like you, sitting on the sidelines sniping at people, Go for it man!

I have been in this hobby for 45 years and at one time ran the New York City Municipal Archives - I am not some child. If you don't want to take my word for it, I can gladly put you in touch with many, Olds owners who have run into this situation.

Geeze, people try to help the hobby and people come out of the woodwork with your negative whatever. I hope that when you have something that's important to you and you post it on this website asking for help, that YOU get the same response.

Have a nice day.

Nilsson

I for one care about their history, but could care less about the the future of GM.

jrzybob442

OK - but the whole idea is to do this in spite of their fumbling and bumbling. Most of us agree that they are not on our list of great companies, which is all the more reason to do this.

One of the stipulations in the grants is that they sign off that they will protect the documents into perpituity and if they don't they go into the public trust - which means we get to take over the admin.

This is obviously a complex issue, but it starts with putting the arm on them to save this stuff, and we can't do that w/o step one. That is why we need you to come on board.

PS, looks like you and I have twin cars. :-)

Rickman48

Hey Bob - don't let one guy get you upset - life's too short, and it takes all kinds!!

I, myself, appreciate your info, and will sign-up for the newsletter, today!!
That's a waste of history to let this stuff go - [Zora's probably rolling over as I speak] whatta waste, especialy to us that lived it!!

Some of us were brought up to think - "If you can't say anything nice, don't say it at all"!
And some -------------------------weren't!!!!

joe_padavano

Bob,

I guess I'm surprised that you think that engineering documentation is even available now. Look, GM is a commercial business that is supposed to be earning a profit for stockholders. They are not a museum or document archive. The only reason for them to retain engineering documents is to comply with government regulations for recalls. I would be surprised if most of this information wasn't destroyed decades ago. Face it, the reason why there are no detailed production records for Oldsmobiles built prior to the mid-1970s is because they were discarded in an office purge. There was absolutely no reason for Olds to retain those documents or to pay to store warehouses full of paper. Same thing goes for engineering drawings. Heck, NASA didn't keep the engineering documents for hardware built during the Apollo program, and arguably that was more important to the nation than the blueprints for an O.A.I. hood. Do you think that in 1970, GM still had engineering drawings for cars designed in the 1930s? Why would it be any different now?

jrzybob442

Lol and thanks.

wmachine

Yes, I've come out of the woodwork for this one.

Ben, when faced with the either learning, or showing your ignorance, you've obviously chosen the latter.
There are some people people out there that have spent a lot of time and effort to pursue what is more commonly considered to be an extremely beneficial cause. I find it pretty disappointing to say the least that instead of thanking those that not only "give a damn", but are doing something about it, one feels the need to be so negative.
Please investigate this yourself. Find out what the truth really is. *Then* let's hear what you have to say about it.

jrzybob442

Joe:

That's not completely true. In fact, NASA falls under the Fed historical records program and they are taking some serious heat for their "release" of records right now.

And you should know that there is precedent for the argument that a significant US corporation's historical records belong to YOU (the public) not them. After all, their history is really a significant piece of US history, not just GM's history.

Last, history can be an excellent public relations tool. If you want to see how it can work in the auto industry - go to the Henry Ford Museum http://www.hfmgv.org/museum/index.aspx. Old Henry, the biggest skinflint ever, endowed the museum in the 30s and it is a model for how this can work. And there are people in marketing and PR at GM that are fighting for a program, but they need our help, so forget about whether you are in love with GM, whether you think they should or shouldn't spend moeny on this or not, help us get the dough to get this stuff saved.

I know that you have respect for this material and we can use you - as a avid Olds guy to help out.

But regardless of what reasoning there is behind GM's desire to dump their records, there is a way to see to it that this doesn't happen. As I said there is $$ available to both catalog and convert them into digital format.

That's where we are going and we will get there - but camn all help. Just sign up - it's a good cause!

jrzybob442

PS, Joe. many of those drawings of stuff from the 30s still does exist. Oh, and at the Ford museum they have stuff going way back.

Lady72nRob71

I wished that GM would have done what Harley-Davidson had done for years - show pride in their history and maintain it. HD recently built a huge museum that looks worth visiting. They also retained many of their bikes for historical purposes (which obviously takes less space than cars)... This seems to show great pride in their past, even learning from their not-so-good years.
Hope this all ends on a good note..........

jrzybob442

Go to www.AHPSoc.org and sign up. That will help it "end on a good note".

Run to Rund

The issue seems rather simple to me: signing up is easy and free; can we trust the gov't and GM mangement (not sic!); who killed Olds and who seems to be trying to keep the memory alive.

jrzybob442

Amen

RAMBOW

Bash me if you wish.

I guess i just find it strange that last week he posted his new car club site...Now today he's posting this...

I went and looked at the website before i posted earlier and i have to say I AM HIGHLY SUSPICIOUS.

There is no accrediation, no SEMA link, no link to any other organization or museum, and no substantiation to the problem he posted about (GM distroying their historical documentation).

There is no info from employees of the GM Heritage center, frankly there is no info there at all.

You are correct, i have not searched out this problem. I do know know that I would expect to see some sort of substantiated evidence of the problem before i'd get too excited.

I am in no way giving the finger to folks who are doing research and preserving history. Its a lot of work and I do appreciate it. I've used PHS and the GM heritage center before for pontiac docs, Canadian Chevelle docs, and have even bought some of the factory photos they sell off their site. So i'm not entirely ignorant of what GM already does offer.

However I am highly suspicious of someone posting out of the blue to go and join my site for "blah blah blah"

If i am incorrect and this really is a problem, Then find and post another source of info and post it. Hemmings article? Sema Action Report?

Maybe you already have that stuff handy since you seem to know about it already. If so please excuse my ignorace and skeptisism- but Please post it so we all may benefit.

jrzybob442

Ben:

I am not going to let you turn this into "Me" Against "You". Because this is not about me, period. The AHPSoc is a registered "Not for Profit" in the State of Mich, and I am merely one of the members of it. That is stated on the website.

As to "my website" I don't know what you are talking about because I alone, don't own any of the "websites". Wild ABout Cars has been around for 3 years and is a registered LLC in the State of Deleware. WAC has been a SEMA member since 2006. Since we are not doing commercial work on WAC we don't post the SEMA logo. Since the AHPSoc is a not for profit we are not a SEMA member, though we are in corresponcence with them about sponsoring us.

You are trying to make trouble where there is no trouble to make.

If you would have read any of the materials on the site that are dowloadable, you would see that we are trying to work on projects that have a definite benefit to the State of Michigan and the depressed cities such as Lansing, Detroit, and Flint.

If you really had looked, you would even have seen that you could download a copy of the Society's By-Laws, a copy of our projects, and a whole lot more, but you are just an unhappy trouble maker and this will be the last time I respond to you.

Go back to whatever it is you do to make other people unhappy and leave us alone we have a problem to solve and it isn't you.

RAMBOW

I was attacked by you and at least one other members so i responded asking for something to substantiate the claim that GM is destroying its heritage docs.

My initial post was flip because you posted something that was hype- very similar to all the junk e-mails that get sent around with unsubstantiated rumors in them. Thus my flip response post.

I did see the stuff on the site saying that it was to benifit areas of michigan... But I did not find anything to back up claims of GM destroying anything.
Since I don't know the organization or writer of that site, I then look to see if it has ties to a group I DO know... Finding none, I have to file it into the suspicious folder.

I'm not an unhappy person and I'm not a trouble maker. I don't know you and you don't know me. I take everything I read on the internet with a raised eyebrow.

I really can't see how its asking too much to have a source listed.

Based on what i did read, it sounds like there are some REAL and Valiant goals there.
But don't cheapen that cause by posting hype that cannot be backed up with evidence.

I'm out.

jrzybob442

I'm sorry I hurt Ben's feelings, but he really put us in a position of having to defend ourselves. A skeptical and flip response to an informational post is an "attack" because it is designed (however innocently intended) to discredit the post. So, regardless of the intention, it was Ben who attacked us, because had we remained silent, his remarks would have stood as credible, which is just not the case.

To me and my associates, people with questions would always be better served by making their concerns into questions instead of immediately inferring that someone is up to something, just because something was left unsaid. In my first post I offered my e-mail to anyone who had a question in depth that would take up valuable space in this Forum. Obviously, if that issue was of interest, we at AHPSoc would have shared it with everyone. Our post was intended to create interest and to drive people to the AHPSoc website - where, hopefully, they would gather up what information was necessary to see if our cause was legit in their minds.

That said, let’s speak to the issue of “unsubstantiated claims”, that Ben raised.

First, we are not trying to indict GM per se; what we are saying is that there are signs that they are moving away from a policy of sharing their history with the public toward locking down the data. They have also taken a very rigid position about their published materials, even if no longer generally available, in that they have tried to litigate against people for making these no longer published materials available to other hobbyists. They have also aggressively gone after people for using their logo on items that are truly an advertisement for them, such as T-shirts and such. What is bizarre is that these logos and such are taken from copy that they originally PAID newspapers and magazines to publish. This is not a positive approach and only further distances themselves from their customer base.

These are clear signs of a disregard for the GM hobbyist and a general lack of understanding of how the hobbyist and the Corporation's historical materials and artifacts keep GM and their brands in the public eye.

Next, they are guilty of what the archival profession calls "benign neglect" regarding the maintenance of artifacts and historical materials. This comes in the form of letting collections be destroyed through lack of oversight, bad management, and poor control. One example is cited in the Olds Performance Club W-machines Magazine; see: http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/membe...2010-01-15.pdf (page 4). Another is their own statement that Oldsmobile Production Records were destroyed in a "fire", though no record of any fire exists.

Last, they have allowed private individuals to acquire valuable records collections, like the Pontiac Production Records – and as a result, people MUST PAY to get copies. What is even more bizarre is that while they are suing people for logo infringement, they are letting an obvious "theft" such as this go unpunished.

There are many other examples of records being lost, denied access to, and generally being treated poorly, but as we have said; indictment is not the answer – a program to get the critical records cataloged, wherever they are, and then find funding to preserve them and make them available is the most constructive approach.

So the issue is not that the AHPSoc is up to something shady, the issue is that the Society is brand new, and that it needs advocates and helpers, not suspicion and detractors. And if we have neglected to explain something to one’s satisfaction it is not by design or subterfuge, but because we are working our tails off to get this organization launched.

On a positive note, already in our short tenure, we have had "lost" collections brought to our attention and offered to us to help preserve. We hope by these examples to find more and find cooperation among the holders of these important records and make it better for the hobbyist, researcher, and even the record holder.

So help us out – please ask questions bob.gerometta@ahpsoc.org – visit our website (www.ahpsoc.org), sign up and help, please!

Oldsguy

In my opinion GM is guilty of much more than what your grievances have expressed here, but that can probably be said of many private companies. Good luck in your efforts.

Rocket Richard

Wow guys,
I have to say, if there really is something important to take action on let's avoid this back and forth. Keep things professional. Let's concentrate on the facts, and provide evidence where available... and then everyone can be informed and help out if they feel the cause is worthy.

Personally, I haven't checked this out yet but now I am curious.

Burn me if you like for my response, but I don't think I would reply and only perpetuate the tone of this thread.

-Rich

442much

Bob and Ben basically agree with other, they're just using different paths. I checked out the sight and signed up. What could it hurt. I could use some info for my newsletters and keep my club members informed as this would affect all of us. I mean GM threw out its Oldsmobile NHRA trophies as they were found in a local dumpster, so what's stopping from shreading documents?

1n 1996 GM actually called me to talk about our club logo saying that it is a GM owned trademark and we could use it, but not modify it. Well what's the point in using it then? Luckily I missed my calling in the diplomatic corp and was able to talk them into letting us use it as it stands now. So, I can see them sueing for trivial things, or what we consider trivial.

And Joe has a point. Does GM really care about keeping this "junk" as they see it? I don't think so. So, I guess it comes down to "is it reasonable to think that there is a possibility that GM would get rid of its literature and stats?" I think so, so that's why I joined. It was even free. My $.02

D. Yaros

Somehow, I was alerted to this situation, and organization, before msg traffic on it appeared here. As noted, it costs nothing to join, and joining does indicate interest and concern.

A point I think worthy of note is the organization is MI based, and quite frankly, I suspect folks there may have a bit of a better handle on what is/is not going on than those of us spread out across the country?

Run to Rund

GM has already destroyed Building 70 (Olds admin) and the Fisher Body plant (built in 1924). Who offered pieces of the marble siding from Bldg. 70 engraved with the Oldsmobile name, dates, and logo? Who offered bricks from the Fisher building engraved with Fisher, location, and the dates 1939-2005? The union locals, of course. GM mgt. didn't. And the locals offered these pieces CHEAP, obviously from an interest in history, not to make money.

This situation suggests strongly that we have to look outside of GM corporate if we want to preserve history.

https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/krooswyk/shared/building70/

hamm36

Someone has been destroying/rewriting American History for 30 yrs. No one seems to care much about that!?

1969w3155

What Rambow was looking for was some reassurances that you have a legitimate site, which in this era of internet scams, is wise. You in turn attack him for not jumping on your bandwagon. I, for one am leary of anything not substantiated by legitimate means, whether by accreditaion or otherwise. Am I interested in preserving Olds/GM automotive documents? YES, but not at the risk of blindly joining any group, or organization that throws itself out there, and when questioned, am subjected to attack. That is a red flag. Perhaps you are over zealous with you devotion of Olds, which is alright, but don't attack people who don't immediately agree with you.

jrzybob442

1969w3155; You need to read the entire thread and not respond to a single post. This is not about Ben or Bob; this is about the auto industry's history, period.

As I said in my other previous posts, I offered the website; I offered a realistic explanation for what we are doing and why; and I certainly did not ask anyone to "blindly join" anything. As I have said more than once, I asked people to go to the website and check out what we are up to.

Everything is out on the website: our plans, our by-laws, our Michgan not-for profit status, our press releases, everything.

Surely one can ask questions, but a question is different from saying "yeah, right" and inferring (without reading the info) that we are a scam. That is, if nothing else, rude.

So my question to you 1969w3155 is: Did you go to the website and read anything there? After reading what we are up to, do you have any questions about what we are doing?

I stand ready to answer them.

In times where we need to start working together, it seems that we'd rather sit home taking pot shots at people who are trying to do just that.

Diego

If this is a scam, Bob has put in too much time and effort to convince too many people who aren't millionaires.

Bob, you need to change your target market.

jrzybob442

LOL Thanks, Diego. To our mind, all markets are our target market, and you are right if I was scamming this wouldn't be where I'd be looking for dough - but the fact is, we aren't asking for any money - so I'm still trying to figure out where the scam is.

Yes, once we have our projects underway and we have grant applications in to the Feds, we might ask for "matching donations" but that wouldn't be until we have something to "match" to.

Right now, we are looking for a "constituency" of people to lobby for saving this stuff. If you are a hobbyist or a restorer, or vendor, I don't see why you wouldn't want to get engaged to see what's going on and to try to help. I mean, isn't having a car like this - an Oldsmobile - an attempt to preserve history?

I guess I am baffled more by the apathy of this group than by a few people who have a problem with our attempt - after all - at least they are engaged. the others - where the heck are they?

I don't get it.

Run to Rund

When membership is free, the scammer would have to be really stupid; I'm gonna scam you so send me no money at all????????
Geez, Bob and the others are offering to help, I know, I know, it is hard to find anyone to help these days.

In 5-10 years when we are trying to get info and GM has lost it all in a "fire" those who aren't "engaged" will understand.

1969w3155

[quote=jrzybob442;227974]1969w3155; You need to read the entire thread and not respond to a single post. This is not about Ben or Bob; this is about the auto industry's history, period.

So my question to you 1969w3155 is: Did you go to the website and read anything there? After reading what we are up to, do you have any questions about what we are doing?

For your info I did read the entire post, Nice to know that you are also a mind reader...NOT. Was I interested in the site? at first I was, but after reading ALL of the posts, and saw that you are full of yourself. I did not need to procede further, maybe when you can quell your massive ego I'll consider it, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Aceshigh

This makes the most sense, and is a logical response.

jrzybob442

Huh? How am I "full of myself"? Am I full of myself because I questioned you? So you can question me, but I can't question you? The reason why I questioned you is because I answered your original question in the thread. Seems to me you are still all about attacking me and less about finding out about the Society. I have repeatedly said it's not about me, but you want to make it about me.

Bob is a big old bad guy, so because of that, I'm not interested. That's silly personalization and serves no purpose. Run to Rund and all the other respected people who chimed in that this is a good thing goes by the wayside, because I asked you a question . . . OK, that's really mature.

jrzybob442

Not really - I answered this in a previous thread.

1. The fact is that the materials were released to the Public were available and have been withdrawn. (Why?) GM cites "trade secrets" for engineering drawings from the 1960s?
2. There is precedent for corporate historical records belonging to the public, not the corporation - and companies have been successfully sued by the Feds to prevent their destruction. And NASA is in trouble for their release of historical materials. And just in case you didn't know it you, John Q. Public, still owns 26% of GM (52% untill they sell off the shares offered last week), so it ain't quite a "commercial business".
3. Who cares what "logic" you can scrape up for GM's position - do you want them to throw this stuff away? If so, fine. If not, join with us.
4. It doesn't matter what their or anyone else's "opinion" is - the fact is that we want to prevent the loss.
5. Last, there money available from private foundations and the federal government to save this stuff, so why don't you want to get on board and help do so? What's the problem?

We just want people to sign on and say this is wrong and that we should go forward and fix it. What is the rub? I don't get the apathy.

Oldsguy

Priorities. Everyone has a different list. Don't let it frustrate you.