Fraud regarding Olds Muscle Cars:

I have unfortunately had some experience with similar issues in the course of my business, so I have my own opinions, but am curious what the "Olds Community" here has to say.

I recently encountered a situation regarding an Olds car sale transaction. The car looked good upon initial inspection and the seller / broker agent represented that to "the best of their knowledge" that the car had its original engine and bought it as such.

Turns out that was not the case and that the car was sold prior as "not the original engine". The broker / agent actually dressed a correct block with broach marks and even drilled the dowel alignment hole as well as re-stamping in the correct VIN derivative and finally painted over it. All this with full knowledge and consent of the owner.

It is obvious to me that the reason this was done in this case was to enhance the resale value of the car.

The valve reduction of this particular car without its original engine can be substantial in the resale market.

How should a situation like this be handled when the seller / broker agent accepts no responsibility and has no intention to do anything about the situation?

a) Buyer Beware, too bad so sad? Buyer takes his lumps and bruises and moves on and hopefully discloses the issue to the next buyer.

b) Buyer seeks civil remedy in order to recoup his financial loss.

c) Buyer seeks criminal / Felony charges for fraud in order to balance the scales of justice.

?

 

A well qualified attorney would be able to answer this question. I would think something can be done.

 

If the seller didn't put it in writing on a bill of sale or some other similar "contract" then it's buyer beware...... At least that's what Judge Judy always says.

Rick

 

You would probably need to prove damages -- i.e. document or otherwise show that there was in fact a reduction in the vehicle's value. A lot of cars have perfectly competitive resale values with correct (but non-matching) engines.

 

This is a great question
The Vin laws ONLY pertain the the Actual Vin Tag of the car, meaning the one on the dash.
The law has no provisions for the vin on the block/trans/frame etc.
Think of it this way from the law stand point it does not matter if the car has the original 455 or a replacement 455 or 350 for that matter.
This i would say falls under the buyer be ware situation.
I understand the value aspect. But if you persue it leagally you need to be able to show actual proof or loss by means of documentation, not opinions or here say.
Not enough do diligence in the beginning. Obviously the info was out there to be found, but to late.

What ownership does the current owner have in this situation? Or is it all on the seller? HMMMMM

 

Many years ago I was up at the Portland Swap Meet in Portland Oregon. A buddy had a friend who was well off and had some uber rare cars. He was offering a rare Mopar, Hemi/convertible car for sale. Suddenly the Feds show up with a trailer and take his car. Story was the person he bought it from had swapped some vin tags and been caught in the act. I was told the Feds went over his car with a fine toothed comb checking numbers. They decided his car was legit and returned it to him.

I agree with you Stefano, changing things to sell the car at a higher value is against the law. Which law, and which agency should be involved I'm not sure.

John

 

if youre a broker, i can see how it could be easy to "buy" into what a seller says..i doubt most would admit they committed tampering, a federal offence.

due diligence..means you do everything you can to prove the sellers telling you the truth...if youve done that your conscious is clear..

if you have any freakin' doubt...why take the consignment...you deal in high end stuff, get the insurance you need..and pick and choose...make the seller sign a full disclosure statement, the buyer, a release of liability for you, and do the best ya can...


the higher end the car..the bigger the fish..and the better the fish are educated...

be on the other side..Joe 6pack..you save ten years to buy the car of your dreams and you find out its a rebody, or the engines a restamp...etc...it would break a guys spirit..

 

The way we run our business is not what I'm seeking opinions about.

My family and I have done the best we can to properly represent the cars we sell for many decades.

We have never stamped a VIN into anything, nor have we ever modified a trim tag or even rebodied a car. We run into these scenarios all to often and disclose rebodiies, retags and restamps to the best of our knowledge.

When we do broker a car we are only generally responsible for what we are told/ know about it. We have agreements and insurance to help protect us from the the bad guys.

We have turned away many cars. In fact I just recently turned down a 1969 ZL1 Camaro which has a known history as a rebodied car.

Check out how I have the White Douglass Yenko Camaro advertised:

http://www.nickeyperformance.com/196...douglas-yenko/


Getting back on track:

The person who sold the car for the owner acting as the broker is the guy who had the engine modified and stamped in order to enhance the market value.

Both made representations that other than detailing the engine the car was just at is was purchased from the prior owner. Both responded that to the best of their knowledge it was the original engine.

Even though this particular car did not have many prior owners, it took a while to track them down and contact them.

Many times, the best you can do is say as far as I know or to the best of my knowledge I believe........etc......But when you take an engine that had a different stamp/numbers on it and replace it with a vin derivative in order to make it matching numbers.................

Had the two guys, broker and owner not been the ones who stamped that engine and not been the ones who withheld that info when asked, I believe the scenario would be completely different.

Fraud is never OK. Whether you are Joe lunch box or Jay Leno doesn't make defrauding someone Ok, IMO.

 

If a seller tells me "to the best of my knowledge" I take it as a No and price it accordingly. To 95% of buyers they could really care less about a block number unless they are looking to profit from it.

 

I dunno. When I bought my '69, the fact that the engine, trans and rear were original to the vehicle was an influential factor in my decision to purchase. I wouldn't have been willing to pay what I did if it had incorrect or non-matching components.

 

I suspect that as far as recourse, you would have to prove that the broker knowingly/intentionally did that modification and how it affected the selling price of the car.

I think the act itself is very slimy and fraudulent. What we don't know is how it has been determined or proven that the broker did or knew it was done.

 

This is my take on it as well. Some folks are in "the car hobby" to make money or win trophies at shows while others (like me) just enjoy having/driving an old car and have no qualms about modding the drivetrain for extra performance. Granted, modding or swapping an engine is different than misrepresenting the one that's in there, but for some folks it wouldn't matter.

 

The whole barret jackson crowd makes the hobby not fun. Like a group of snobs who don't care if you save a plain jain cutlass s from rotting into the ground. You can't buy a basket case satelite for under 6k you can't buy even a basket case 70 malibu for under 5. I bought my 72 as a basket case runner for 2k . I'm sorry but I can't wait until the muscle car fad dies and these cars become undesireable. I would love a w31 but I sure as hell would not keep it numbers matching. The profit aspect of it to me seems greedy. Its like "here sir we found your old highschool car which we paid nothing for but we want 25k because its legit. I would love a real w31 so I can cage it and build it as a w31 drag car. My buddy has a 71 w30 that's caged and runs 10's . That would make some people sick.

 

Here is my take, we can have all the moral thoughts and opinions we want. Did the actions of the of the broker and the previous owner break the law? If so they need to punished to the fullest extent of the law. If not then what recourse do you have.

 

Fwiw in a case above where illegal and fraud is evident my take is history is filled with bad things that happened to people because of greed so for all i care his house could burn down with family inside and I could care less,now im not greedy so I dont fear bad karma

 

We all have different frames of reference regarding the cars from this or even other eras. The whole, they are bad guys because they make more money than I do mentality seems very unrealistic to me.

Markets and venues for buying and selling cars have been around for longer than many here have been alive.

The BJ auction has been around since the 1970s.

If you have ever purchased something and resold it for more than what you paid, no matter what is was and no matter whether you added value to it or not you are in the same boat. Stocks, bonds, companies, art, cars, motorcycles, tools parts......etc. This is the basis of our Capitalistic society.

I am disappointed that my income doesn't seem to have kept pace with all the materialistic things I would like to have, but I certainly don't blame others for it.

There are plenty of "Deals" to be had if you decide to put some time and effort into getting what you want, but there will always be others who have the money to just buy what they want.......that will never change.

Spend your time and money where it make you happy.

 

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...cottsdale.html


the legit cars should be worth more
but the fakery theives liars get more adept in their art
and debase the value of the real cars

 

I agree. You should see all of the parts cars that show up at The Pavilions in Scottsdale prior to BJ with high dollar asking prices, as if they are restored collectible cars. It's sickening.

 

Very soon I will be the owner of the world's only genuine non-numbers matching '70 442 and it will be worth a fortune

 

Ha! Not as much as my 1-of-1 '64 4-4-2 prototype with the exceedingly rare automatic transmission.

 

Pfffft, someone posted one the other day in the flesh for sale.

 

Stefano , unfortunate this buyer came to you too late in the process . I hope you are not too deep into this yourself .
Option A. 2 Bad ,so Sad . Hopefully disclose . I do NOT like . Perpetuates the myth of rewarding Bogus stamps , and fraudulent behavior .
Option B and C : Only if there is a possible Lawyer / Car Guy that would work for a minimal fee to expose the slime beneath this representation and sale of a car .
There is definitely damage done here . It was intentional .
I'm certain there are email's and pictures of the representation process . Gather information , and indicate there would be deposition's taken in the new owners state . That might get the Sellers / Brokers attention .
Might even get a refund or monetary offer . Unfortunately , this car is tainted forever . Just a stupid , stupid thing to do .
Then on to Option D . : OUT the Seller / Broker . Post names , pictures , dates , times , and let Karma take over ..

If the offender team is from AZ , I'm happy to attempt to serve them papers .. Maybe something good can come from this lesson.. JT

 

As I posted in another thread,I'm not sure a court would rule that a rebody is fraud. Body shells were available from GM and they are so noted in the parts book. I'm not a lawyer but how can a rebody be fraud if it's a serviceable part? I know the question was about an engine block stamping and just thought I would throw this out for debate also.

Another thing,64-67/72 the 442 was an option,not a standalone model. Say you take a Cutlass and add all of the correct 442 components,is it a clone or a 442. I know in a sanitary world we all think these cars should be as they left the factory but situations happen and things are changed. I think it was brought up in the thread I'm referencing the difference between a clone and a rebody. I've seen advertised cloned up cars bring good $$$$ @ auction. This debate will go on forever about what constitutes fraud.

 

Okay 66, this makes me think of a question, and it's just a question. What was the purpose of the factory offering a body shell in the catalog? Was it in case someone wrecked their new car and they could rebody it with the salvageable parts, or was it so someone could buy a body and build a race car cheeper than cutting up a complete car and throwing away all the parts they didn't need? Was there specific wording that only allowed you to buy a shell for one reason or another or was it like anything else, put down your money and drive off with it?

 

Good Point....I had to sign a waiver to get this Body from GM. But this thread is supposed to be about engine restamping. Not rebodies.

 

stamp the block equals piracy
for cubic dollar gain that is

 

by the way
are you going to put an olds engine in that
or why are here?????

 

In the end, there are only two reasons for stamping/restamping engines/parts: NOVELTY OR PROFIT (or maybe the novelty OF profit)

 

I really do not know but if I had to venture a guess,I would say to replace a wrecked/destroyed car. I do not think body in white race cars had caught on during that period. I also do not know the protocol involved in buying a body shell back then. All I can tell you is,they are in the standard GM parts book.

 

In my pursuit of this hobby, profit would definitely be a novelty.

 

lol!

 

I don't think this is about the re stamping being illegal or legal, That in itself is not illegal. This is more about restamping and using this to gain value with false claims about the stamping. The act of restamping an engine block is not illegal but for a fact the fraud of selling it as original IS. I see NO reason to restamp a block other than for the use of later fraud.

The problem is, Without documents of the fraud you will likely never be able to win compensation. The only hope would be if the former owner that said it was not original would step up in your defiance. Even then, without documents it will likely go nowhere.

All this is why I was up front and publicly said my W-30 did not have the original engine. I wanted it to be known by everyone so no future owner could ever get away with restamping it.

 

What does Steve say about it?