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So I have a 1969 Vista Cruiser. I believe the 350 Olds in the car is original, and due to a bottom end noise, needs a total rebuild. Which begs the eternal question- do I find a 455 to drop in?
I'm wondering what people think about the value of "numbers matching" on a Vista Cruiser? I know for a 442 or W-machine it's very important, but does it significantly alter the value for other models?
My Vista Cruiser has a non-original paint scheme, wood grain and original trim removed (by PO, don't blame me). It has a SSII style wheels. The TH400 and O-Type rear end seem to be original. The dash had been cut for a modern radio. The original bench front is gone and replaced with period correct buckets. My point is that lots of the original parts are there, but it's not a perfect survivor by any stretch of the imagination. I know "it's only original once", but I'm curious what do people think about keeping the 350 in favor of a 455 regarding the car's value? I know for "smiles per gallon, the 455 can't be beat".
Sounds like there is already a lot of changes. Why not put a 455 in it, and keep the 350. I had 72 350, and put a 455 in it never had a problem selling it.
In the situation you've described I don't think it would matter much especially if it is a LC 2bbl. If it is a HC 4bbl they ran well and I'd try to keep it as it would be original and they were strong enough. If the 455 is a later smog motor then I'd definitely keep a HC 4bbl 350.
If it was an untouched original low mileage survivor, it could have an impact. Other than that numbers matching would not add much if any value to a small block car like you are describing. It most certainly would not offset the increased value you will add by istalling a 455. That said, if you have the storage space I would keep the original motor just in case you want to rebuild it and put the car back to stock some day.
So I have a 1969 Vista Cruiser. I believe the 350 Olds in the car is original...
It doesn't sound like you're convinced it's the original 350. Additionally, a truly numbers matching vehicle would have both the original transmission & the original engine numbers matching (validated via the VIN derivatives located on each). Since the car has already had some heavy modifications it most likely isn't going to matter much if it is or it is not numbers matching. Have you attempted to validate the VIN derivatives of the engine & transmission to see if they match the VIN?
Amen. A Vista is a big car to pull around. I would 455 it in a minute. I had a 72 Vista Cruiser with a 455. Can't even imagine a 350 pulling that car around.
Are you even sure the transmission is original? A 350 should have gotten a TH350, not a TH400.
Regardless, since the car's already been dicked around with by previous owners, I think you're free to build it any way you like. And a 455 is definitely more fun. Now, if you really want to have fun, think 4-speed!
On a vista cruiser I doubt any difference in value if you went 455, most would rather have the 455..its not like a factory muscle car where many want OE. I wouldn’t even bother storing the original 350, just no reason for it from a value standpoint.
The 350 -th400 powertrain was a valid factory option on heavy cars.
Y'know, I nearly stopped myself, but then I thought, "nahh". I haven't been in any trouble on here lately, anyway. The only instance I could remember where a TH-400 was available with an engine of 350 CI or less was over at Chevy where you could get a LT-1/TH400 combo in your Z/28 or Corvette.
Just as a sidebar, does anybody know if Buick offered a TH400 with their 350 in a wagon?
My 72 had a Turbo 375, looks like a 400 but has a 350 size tail shaft. I thought mine was a 400 till I took it the the tran shop, and they told me the difference.
Thanks for all the input! I'm out in AZ, so I'll need to brave the heat and try and find the stamping on the block to see if it original or not.
Either way, from what I'm hearing it sounds like I have a lot of leeway to do what I want (from a value perspective, I know I can always build it as I see fit!).
My concern with keeping a spare small block around is having to store a 500 lbs paperweight "just in case". I'm already hording old parts removed from the car and a block would eclipse my current pile!
Thanks for all the input! I'm out in AZ, so I'll need to brave the heat and try and find the stamping on the block to see if it original or not.
Either way, from what I'm hearing it sounds like I have a lot of leeway to do what I want (from a value perspective, I know I can always build it as I see fit!).
My concern with keeping a spare small block around is having to store a 500 lbs paperweight "just in case". I'm already hording old parts removed from the car and a block would eclipse my current pile!
Meh. I have a 3 car garage that actually has 3 cars in it, along with 2 spare engines (400E block and a 455), the back seat for my Jeep, my work bench, tool box, boxes of spare Cutlass parts, a new exhaust system for the Cutlass, and a bunch of other stuff. You can surely make room somewhere for one spare engine.
Only my 2 cents My Vista has a 455 and you will be amazed at how small the Vista gas tank takes ya If you ever concern yourself with mundane things.
Haha- "smiles per gallon" is fun but doesn't go far? Curious - what kind of mpg do you get? I've found the 350 in the VC to get about 16 or so on the highway, but around town is terrible. Also, I've heard the 455 likes.to overheat- any experience with that? I live in AZ by the way.
The older these cars get, the less relevant the block vin stamp gets. It’s really only viable on investment grade vehicles. Always a major plus, but certainly not a deal breaker on a more door station wagon.😉
You are correct on Oldsmobile 455's running warm/hot but if you are putting it in do it right. Get a good radiator. Get the right thermostat. Nothing like a 455 Olds motor. Better than it was known as. Me personally if you want to go old school motor. Go 455. The torque and power is 👍👍
Maybe 10 MPG on a good day down hill with a tail wind. its best to carry extra gas cans the tank is just too small. Even with a Tiger in my tank Temp sits right on 180 at 55 MPH climbs a little at 75 maybe 190
Last edited by Jamesbo; July 12th, 2023 at 02:35 AM.
From what I've seen, matching numbers don't mean a lot on orphan models like the VC. No one saved them, most went to the crusher. There's probably less than 1% of each year's production left. The benefit is that they tend to be more reliable, being as they are mostly untouched by the type of people who try to "improve" their cars.
But you do have another option for more power that doesn't involve a 455.
Here's what I did with my first 1970 VC that had the 2-bbl regular fuel 350 and 2.78 axle...
rebuilt the 350 with forged 10:1 compression pistons
used a 222/222° at 0.050" duration cam (stock was 201/210°)
put on a Quadrajet with manifold
bought a cutter kit, so I could do simple bowl porting, smoothing, and gasket matching
had a shop add 455-size intake and exhaust valves
had a shop make a T-400 switch-pitch transmission; I set the governor to shift at 6000 rpm
added headers and dual exhaust
I got around 16 mpg on the highway and it seemed very quick. Confirmed by the fact that my current 1970 455 VC with 2.56 axle was definitely slower above 30 mph.
I will be the first one to say it although others know as well. Go grab an LS truck from your local impound lot. It's not like you would be putting an LS in factory W-30 ragtop. They can be a very efficient swap. You get reliable horsepower. Decent gas mileage. I wouldn't feel bad at all sending your original drivetrain down the road.
Careful though. Once you start investing money and you like it... Make it yours. 👍
I will be the first one to say it although others know as well. Go grab an LS truck from your local impound lot. It's not like you would be putting an LS in factory W-30 ragtop. They can be a very efficient swap. You get reliable horsepower. Decent gas mileage. I wouldn't feel bad at all sending your original drivetrain down the road.
Careful though. Once you start investing money and you like it... Make it yours. 👍
Not often I get to use all my anti LS swap funnies
Last time I checked, this forum was called ClassicOlds. I see enough LS swapped/chevy crossbreeding Oldsmobiles at the track and car shows. I don’t want to see or hear about it here.
Yes, I’m well aware of GM bastardized cars, and I’m also well aware of the class action lawsuit. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
Did all model year Oldsmobile 350cid get same cam?
Here's a 95%-correct overview...
Most 330s and 350s had cams with 250/264° advertised duration. Police, marine, and high performance engines had longer duration cams. In 1970 to 1973 the 4 bbl manual transmission engines also had longer duration cams--the longest of these was the 286/286° in 1970.
I get the LS hate. I really do. That factory W-30 ragtop that got gutted here still makes me sick. Absolute blasphemy. One of the most get my blood going threads ever here. This Original Poster is working with a Vista Cruiser. Numbers matching really means nothing. He is wanting to swap the motor anyway. He wants reasonable gas mileage. LS with a four speed automatic shouldn't be so hated on. If you know anything about early drag racing, Oldsmobile engines were in so many non Oldsmobile cars. Look it up. Were they hated on for putting an Oldsmobile engine in a 32 Ford? No they weren't. They went for a reliable strong drivetrain. LS swap in today's day and age is no different. I am so with don't pull an original drivetrain W-30 442 etc. Making a Vista Cruiser fast strong good gas mileage etc? I see nothing wrong with swapping an LS motor and transmission into this car. Paint it Oldsmobile 350 gold. So many people wouldn't even know. Hopefully the original poster does what he wants. Giving love to His car is what matters.
Is Cutlassefi's stroker crank available currently? You can get 420 ci and 400+ HP and 500+ ft/lbs easy from one. Plus go as little on the overbore as needed, the thicker the cylinders, the better. If you do 455, as said, run a Robert Shaw thermostat, Flowkooler water pump with a spring in the bottom hose, get the biggest radiator possible and either a seven blade clutch fan and shroud or good Derale or factory high output electric fans. The 6L LS won't be cheap and sure needs something better than a stock tune plus a better converter in the 4L80E and decent gears. I hated how useless our work 2011 3/4 was below 3500 rpm, loaded or not. My 3.6 V6 Challenger at 4100 pounds pulls valley hills better than that 3/4 did empty. Plus it drank a lot of fuel. I always found LS as useless truck engines, tuned in a lighter car should be much better, I assume. As said, a 455 won't deter most buyers.
Hmm, I guess a 11 second, pump gas drive anywhere old school 455 has no place in todays hot rod world. I guess 16mpg in an old school classic Olds with an archaic iron lung engine is pointless.
Perhaps I should look into the belly button, everyone has a LS swap. Then I could blend in with the cool kids.
My phone is dripping with sarcasm.
I have been involved with enough LS swaps to tell you they are not nearly as cheap as every says. The engines are pretty cheap, it’s the wiring, computer, fuel systems all the little nickel and dime things that will eat you alive. And as others pointed out, the LS engine has zero bottom end torque. To me, steering the front end with the steering wheel, and the rear end with the throttle. That’s what makes a car fun to drive.
As for a numbers matching car, who cares?! A valuable 442, Chevelle, or other collectible car definitely more desirable when numbers matching. But the typical hot rodder isn’t concerned with that crap. A solid car is an ideal blank canvas to make the car their own.
LS swaps are like the O.A.I hoods and wings, everyone has to have one.
July 10th, 2023, 04:32 PM
