Joffroi

Its a great looking day in Kansas and so I took my 68 Cutlass convertible to work. Ran like a champ. But, when I got back in my car to drive somewhere, it clicked once and wouldn't start. I tried to jump the car but got the same results, heard a click and nothing.

I think its the started. Is that easy to fix on your own?

I get free towing so I'll get the car sent back to my house. Some have suggested hitting the starter with a hammer but I don't have a hammer nor am I really sure where its at. I have some research to do this weekend!

Hopefully its just the started and it is as easy to replace as people tell me. Do you agree with the diagnosis? Thanks

Lady72nRob71

Sounds like the solenoid coil is pulling in like normal...
Turn the headlights on and try to start. If the lights do not dim when you try to start, either the starter or solenoid contacts may be bad.
If the lights dim a lot, either the starter may have a short, or there is a bad connection within the big thick battery cables.

Report back your findings.

Joffroi

I just tried it and when I turn the key, the lights dim slightly. It looked like in both your above scenarios, the starter is going to need to be fixed. When I have more free time, I'll try to jack my car up and check the connections.

At least my car is at my house now
nU1tu.jpg

MDchanic

I'd clean all the starter cable connections (both ends, including the battery terminals) first, then check the solenoid.
It could just be a dirty contact disk in the solenoid.
If you disconnect the battery, take down the starter, and remove the solenoid, you can remove the Bakelite end cap on the solenoid (2 screws and the nuts on the S terminal and the big terminal, plus the screw to the bottom terminal), and look at the big metal disk and the two terminals it contact inside the cap.
Odds are it's all melted and gunked up.
Remove the disk and put it back on the other way, so that the clean side is facing the terminals, smooth the terminals a bit with a file, put it all back together, and see how it works.

- Eric

Joffroi

Thanks for the instructions, hopefully I'll be able to look at this stuff this weekend.

oldcutlass

X2 on all the above, I would start by cleaning battery cables and checking battery first!

Jetstar 88

I hit mine with a hammer for a few months after it started acting up. Doesn't always work on the first try if you're alone, so your best bet is to have someone hold the key at the start position while you hit it. That tactic never failed.

Joffroi

Just to make sure I'm not going to break anything, I took a couple pictures (as best I could) of what I'm working with.

Here is a picture of the engine. I followed the red battery cable.
BP1Hp.jpg

Now underneath the car, is what I believe is the starter. If so, is this what I can beat with a hammer in hopes of starting the car?
Bc2Ak.jpg

And then here is the solenoid? What do you use to clean everything?
dhLQM.jpg

Is there anything I need to watch out for to ensure I don't destroy anything?

Redog

That is the starter in pic two.

Don't 'beat' it with a hammer, just heavy taps.

Starters get "dead Spots" in them and won't allow the car to start, tapping it with a hammer frees them up. I did this with my Alero once and it started everytime, with the key, until I got a new starter

greenslade

did you try giving it a boost?check the ground from battery to eng.

Joffroi

So I was able to sneak away from my computer for a bit and hit the start with a hammer a couple times. To my surprise, it started right back up.

I don't know if I'm being paranoid now or what, but now the engine seems to be turning over a little delayed. Before it was a very controlled rumble at what sounded like steady RPMs in idle. Now it seems to almost have a thumping sound behind it where the turn overs aren't equally separated. I don't know haha, at least it starts now.

Oh, does this mean I need to drive around with a hammer at all times? haha

Thanks again for the help CO

oldcutlass

It needs a set of brushes!!

Lady72nRob71

Starter needs to be pulled and perhaps rebuilt or replaced.
See if there is an auto electric company who can rebuild yours. This way it is guaranteed to fit!
Carrying a small hammer (and a variety of other common tools) is recommended for anyone.

Glad you got it diagnosed.

oldcutlass

Murphys law says the nearest thing to your hand when you need it, suddenly becomes a hammer!!!!! LOL

A starter can easily be rebuilt yourself. All electrical components run on smoke! When the smoke comes out they are no good any more. Pop it apart and check the bearings and brushes, normally the bearings are fine, so you'll find all it needs is a set of brushes! Gently burnish the rotor where the brushes ride with some fine emory cloth, reassemble the motor.

You can purchase a new solenoid and install it at this time or clean the one you have up!!

To test all you have to do is hook up 12v to the big lug and jumper to the small one! It will send the gear forward and spin. Do it a few times to make sure it works at 3-5 second bursts!

Reinstalland your good to go!!

stevengerard

same thing is happening to me, it won't start when its hot - heat soaked solenoid, I just leave the car cool down, though last time I still had to hit it with a hammer. Will end up rebuilding the starter this winter and getting a heavy duty solenoid with a heavy duty spring

Bill in NC

You need a new starter. A little tip, don't buy the cheapest one you can find.....it will fail quickly. But don't get caught up in buying a $500 unit either.

Remember as a kid you always had the buddy system? You need a car buddy. Someone who wouldn't mind lending a helping hand in situations like this. Make some friends at the next cruise-in or car show. Real car guys are good people.

I hope you get her going again soon.

MDchanic

I'd vote to take it apart and see what's wrong with it.
It may need brushes, it may have dirty armature contacts, it may have a cruddy solenoid contact plate, or all three, but probably nothing worse.
And if it's too broken, or you can't get it back together, then go get a new one.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained .

- Eric

Joffroi

Well, I think your right. Tried to start it this morning and its doing the same thing. Does anyone have suggestions on new starters for a 68? How much do they usually go for (for a good one)
Once I get it up and running, I'm definitely going to try some buddies.

Lady72nRob71

X2

You cannot break it any worse...
Most auto parts starters are remanufactured in some other country in high volume.
Look in the yellow pages for automotive electrical service places. Take your stater there to be rebuilt. At least is is guaranteed to fit!
Should cost equal or less than rockauto, which will be about 70 bucks.

Joffroi

Well, I had great weather this weekend and was able to at least pull my starter out. How do you guys think it looks?
PcZed.jpg
SfP6K.jpg
PyX4i.jpg
9uXnj.jpg

If my wiring is bad, where is the best place to get correct replacements?

Lady72nRob71

Looks not too bad, dont think it is original. There are numbers on the side - can you read them? One is a date code, one a part number.
Obviously failed internally.
If you need wiring, check rockauto - they carry American Autowire - one of the best witing repro companies.

That cold front was VERY welcomed!!

Joffroi

I didn't see any date code.
Will this basic one from AAP work? http://www.autozone.com/autozone/par...6883_100943_0_

I'm driving the 350 4bbl by the way.

Yes, its 50 degrees now. Hard to believe 3 days ago it was 100 lol

Run to Rund

If you care about "numbers matching" and all that stuff, you can ost photos of the numbers on the case, and I can check the part number. The date code should be there too. If you get a different unit, note that yours is the "high torque" longer model, with the copper tube spacer between the blades coming out of the case to the screw going into the solenoid.

Joffroi

I don't care about numbers matching with this and I actually couldn't find any real numbers on the starter. All I found was something like 3559 written in sharpy.

What is the difference between a high torque starter and low torque? I'm trying to find a place locally that might have one but of course I want to make sure I get the right one. Everything at advance auto parts are $150+ whereas at other places I can find some around 50-60. What is the difference? Will this one work?
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/par...6883_100943_0_

Lady72nRob71

The one you have is probably not an original, so no delco number or date code.
Rockauto has a Remy I almost got for like 70 bucks...

Here is a recent thread with lots of good info...
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...confusion.html

Joffroi

As of now ... Starter 2 and me 0.

My attempted on replacing it failed, but I have a couple more questions now.
Here is my lovely new starter:
xoBRp.jpg

I thought I connected everything correctly and went through the ridiculously tiring task of getting that thing up there.
LAr7A.jpg

I connected my battery again, turned the key, and nothing. Not even a click. I dropped my starter again thinking maybe I cross wires but still nothing. In my fiddling around, I noted that the middle, larger connector was lose. I tighten it but my arms are to wiped to get it up so I'll try again tomorrow. While my starter was dangling around with everything tighten, I tried to turn the key and again, got nothing.

Does the starter have to be bolted to complete a circuit and get movement? Does it have to be aligned in a fine turned way?

Anything else I can check. Next two weeks are a high of 82 so I'm missing convertible driving weather :-(

Bill in NC

Yes the starter will need to be bolted to the block for the pad (which should be clean from rust and grease) to serve as a ground to complete the circuit.

In your picture, rotate the small wire on the left from the 4 o'clock position to the 8 o'clock position to keep it further away of the other terminals.

If you still have nothing after the next install, try checking for bad connections by wiggling the wires at the terminals to start with. I am no good at writing directions that are easy to follow lol.........that's where car buddies come into play. Good luck man, don't get too discouraged, it's all a part of the hobby.

Lady72nRob71

It looks like the wires on the small terminals are backwards...
The thicker one (from ign. switch) should be on the outside terminal. If those ARE backwards, nothing happens - not even smoke!

BTW, that thicker wire is all cracked and is a short waiting to happen. Consider replacement soon if not now.

Joffroi

Of course I snuck time in to put the starter in before work and still no results. I then came here and read what you posted. Are you saying I may still be backwards (if you can tell from my camera phone picture)? My arms are getting pretty tired haha

Lz9JQ.jpg

Lady72nRob71

It looks backwards... Thicker one should be towards the exh pipe (if your wiring is stock).
Did you make a note of which went where before you pulled the starter?

BTW, your oil pan is leaking. Next time you pull the starter, use a nutdriver and snug up the oil pan bolts (if they will snug...)

Joffroi

Unfortunately, I broke the cardinal rule and did not take a pictures of the wires before I took them off. I remember just trying to get the starter off as quickly as possible in fear of the weight of it ripping out the wires.

When I get off work, I'll take it down again and reverse the cords and hopefully take the car out for a quick spin. I'll also tighten those oil pan bolts. Maybe one day I'll be able to do an under the hood makeover like you got going on.

Joffroi

Actually, I think I accidentally got a pic. I was looking through them and it looks I did snap one that had the connections. It looks like I am backwards by looking at trying to match the wires. I sure hope this is the case. At least I'm getting really good at dropping and putting back in the starter

YY8lj.png

Lady72nRob71

That's the issue then...
You can come put mine in next week!

frankr442

I made a small cradle that fits on a small floor jack that makes handling starters almost effortless. Maybe I should patent it and start selling them! Seriously, you should give it a try.

Joffroi

This morning I jimmy rigged my floor jack to do the same. Give my arms a much needed rest lol

MDchanic

And, before you get too much rest, you HAVE to replace or re-insulate that cracked wire, and solder those wires to those aftermarket terminals. You're losing current by not having those connections soldered.

- Eric

Joffroi

So I just swapped the wiring, and now when I turn the key, I hear the exact same solitary click noise that I heard when my old starter went out! Is it possible I bought a bad "new" starter? Is there something I need to align?

Joffroi

I don't know if this picture will help at all, but I crawled underneath the car to check some things out, and I see the tooth gear of the starter slightly engaged. I got my wife to turn the key and the gear game all the way out and looks like it attempted to turn. Possible bad solenoid?

Lady72nRob71

You need to get a volt meter involved.
Measure voltage from ground to the each of the 3 terminals on the back of the solenoid while your wife holds the key at "start" (providing the starter does not turn).

If you get a full 12V at each, then your new starter is bad. If one or more is under 12V, then you have a wiring problem. It IS possible that those old nasty crimp terminals are causing a voltage loss. If so, then your old starter might have been good.

Joffroi

Well, the starter does appear to turn. I tried to take a picture as best I could and describe it above. If that is the case, does that make the starter good and me facing just a voltage issue?