So I am confused with this feller. In the first link I post this guy mentions how rare this 70 442 is and that the L31 was the rarest of the rare and in the questions at the bottom of listing he goes on to argue a slew of emails saying he is wrong.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=170894438282


He then goes on to relist the car in this link but left out alot of the arguments he was claiming in the first auction.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=170897906035


So I guess what I am asking is was there 2 different L31 engine codes? One for the 88/98 and one used for the 442? I read a thread wmachine posted on where he hit on this subject and I thought this was the case. So is the engine in this car in the links really THAT rare?

Not trying to knock this mans auctions, just curious is all as I like to understand what is what and what is considered "Rare" on these cars.

 

I'm thinking L31 was standard for the 442

 

according to 1970 Olds specs book that L31 came with 10.25 comp and standard 442 came with 10.50 compression labeled as 365 hp 442 rocket, have not been able to track down that code anybody help on that!
Also looking at the chart 442 under L31 bracket has a hash mark in it, meaning not an option. Just maybe this guy is not full of it! build sheet matches at least most of the VIN # claimed
Pat

 

From what i can tell, there's nothing unique or rare about that engine. "TV" code in box 27 = 455ci, 365hp, Turbo 400, and A/C. Also, a '70 442 (non-W30) got 10.25:1 compression.

 

Yup, that's right.

 

I think in the re listing, that he removed all of the hype and "rarity" of the L31 455, which isn't rare and is the std. engine for a 1970 442. It does have a lot of options.

 

Thats kinda what I was gathering. IN the first listing he was going off about being able to find a plethora of information backing up his rarity claim all over the internet. Of course I searched myself and all I could find was exactlly the opposite dtating that the engine was in fact the same code that came in all 442's that year. Then seen he relisted and now his auction is tamed down and doesn't go on and on about rarist of rares. So I was confused on if it was rare or if he figured it out finally or what. He almost should have sold it when it hit almost 10k on the first listing. I'm wondering if the car will bring any where near the amount now that he doesn't have all the rare of the rare stuff going on.

 

link is from wildaboutcars.com see page 21 of 26 1970 salesman price book
http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/membe..._SPECS_Jan.pdf
follow the 442 line and L31 has a hash mark in it! Reference compression ratio.

Pat

 

Ebay is notorious for bs'ers who claim to be experts. Unfortunately, the claims are false more than are true on there. If its on the internet it must be true, right?

 

No, it is not rare at all, it is the "standard" 442 engine.
There were (at the beginning of the year) seven different L31 variations between the A-bodies and the B-bodies. Codes TU, TW,TV,TQ,TP,UN,UO.
Remember, even a W30 was not a single version.

Obviously he's a case where "a little bit of knowledge is dangerous" and it puts his foot squarely in his mouth.

 

The RPO codes (and text) in the middle of the Build Sheet are not the "lowest common denominator". It is the Broadcast Codes that really tell the story. Note the "TV" in the engine box 27. *That* tells you what the engine really is.

 

Just to add TV is the code for 455 4bbl with C60 (A/C), M40 (TH400) and Y72 (H. D. Cooling and Gen. Pkg) 365 hp 500 ft lbs torque 10.50:1 compression

Again standard issue mill for the 442 in 70

No slouch by any means and yes it is quite highly optioned

 

He should have accepted the 10K-the second auction is never as emotional as the first. This car needs a lot of attention.

 

Well, apparently I have had a major brain fart, as I have had I in my head for a long time that only the W30 had 10:50 compression and that the "regular" 442 had 10:25, so besides the WAC info, I checked two more sources that I have, and of course it's 10:50 for both of them.....jeeesh, shame on me!

 

So, now I have to ask, did the 442 have flat top pistons also?

 

Dan I believe they were dished aluminum on the 442's 455 as well as the W30 455 and the W31 had flat top pistons.

 

Dan, you don't have to ask. The pistons are all shown in the Chassis Service Manual on page 6B-20. At Wild About Cars, of course:
http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/cgi-b...aldisplayed=50

 

I just to point out a few things from 3 other linked places -

• The build sheet pictured on the eBay auction shows model 34487: Olds 4-4-2 Holiday Coupe.
• The build sheet pictured on the eBay auction shows Engine code TV with option code L31.
• The 1970 SPECS sheet shows availability of two engines (only) for the 4-4-2, BOTH 10.5:1.
  One is the W30, the other, listed as "Std," is also listed as the W32 option for the Cutlass Supreme (and no other car).
• The 1970 CSM shows the 4-4-2 with only two engine options, the standard 10.25:1 TU (which is labeled "L31" if you opt for a TH400, and coded as TW or TV), and the optional 10.5:1, coded as TS or TT.
  The same engine is also listed as the L31 option for all of the big cars.

So, it looks like either the SPECS guide or the CSM is mistaken about the nature of the standard engine for the 4-4-2 (and, of course, it seems that it's the SPECS guide that's wrong).

Just wanted to clarify the fact that it's not actually all clear... .

- Eric

 

It can be a bit confusing, but the SPECS booklet and the CSM are looking at 2 different things. The CSM does not show the engine *options*, it is showing the different engine configurations and SPECS is looking at the option choices.
What that means in this case (the '70 442 non-W30) is that the "basic" engine is the L31. You don't chose TU,TW,TV. That is determined by what options (trans, A/C) are ordered too.
The SPECS are sales tools and not meant to (or need to) drill down to the exact engine configuration and specifications.
Maybe the easiest way to look at this is to look at the W30 engine(s). The SPECS "show" just one engine. There were actually 2. Especially with the difference in the cam, they are really pretty different too! But the trans choice is what determined which one you got.
So just as options determine what exact engine you got with the W30, what options you get (in addition to what model) determine what L31 variation you get.
So if you really want to exactly refer to an engine, you're best to refer to the engine code and not the option code.

 

And it all looks so familiar to me, as it is in the Olds Restoration Guide, which I have had for Idunno, 20 years!

 

That's not what I meant.

If you look here, you can see that the SPECS guide clearly shows BOTH engine options, "Std." and "W30," have a "10.50-to-1" compression ratio (highlighted in RED).



If you look here, you can see that the CSM clearly shows that the W30 engine has a 10.5:1 compression ratio, while the Standard engine has a 10.25:1 ratio.



I'm not talking about the engine tag codes, or the exact diferences in the different engines that were installed in cars with or without A/C or A/T.
I'm talking about the SPECS guide having incorrect information, which could confuse people into thinking inaccurate things about their cars.

- Eric

 

I never took that engine identification chart as accurate, maybe I'm wrong but I thought that was just an "Overview" and not totally accurate. The engine assembly manual provides a pretty accurate assessment of what each engine is.

The 1970 W30 engine with an automatic tansmission has basically, if not the same, specs as a 1970 442 with an automatic. Yes the carb, intake, distributor have different part numbers but even the cam is the same.

Again I'm sure these numbers were all messed with from marketing or someone. How is it the standard Toro motor has 30 more HP than a manual trans W30

 

All of the manufacturer's lowballed their hp ratings on their performance cars, to get less scrutinized by the insurance companies, and to bluff the competion. I mean, 335 hp out of a 428 SCJ! we all know that wasn't a fact!

 

Okay, I see what you mean. But the problem there is the layout of the chart in the SPECS. There was a mix of 10.25 and 10.50 in that column and they just put the single 10.50 in the heading. There was no way to use that layout with 2 different ratios. Again, SPECS is a sales tool, so that exactness was not really a concern, keeping in mind that things back then was not an exact science.
And can something like this mislead someone? Absolutely. That's why waving around one document doesn't always give you accurate information.

One footnote of the CR. There is not enough difference between 10.25 and 10.50 to make any practical difference. Both were considered High Compression and required premium gas. But I cannot find any evidence that there was any difference between the 10.25 and 10.50 engines (except W30) that would yield any CR differences. Same bore same crank, rods, pistons and heads. *Theoretically* the 10.50 E heads could have been milled down more, but I don't believe that was done. So that difference could then be as much a marketing touch as anything.

 

And THAT was my point.

Thank you.



- Eric