sicky olds

Was driving the H/O all day on Saturday and it started and ran fine. That night i went to start it and nothing. Well I wouldnt say anything cause the Gen light and radio came on. Swapped out the starter hoping that was it and it wasnt that. Swapped out the relay that is on the driver side fender (cant think of the name right now) and it ran fine on the Rallye so it rules that out. I dont notice any loose connections and any splices are fine. When i turn the key to start it the Gen light goes brighter as well.

Not sure what forum to put this in since it could be electrical or mechanical, so admins if you want please move to correct spot.

HELP!!!!!!!

jozw30

Battery that just finally gave out? Just replaced the battery in my W30 after having strange intermittent no-start issues.

Drove it one Saturday, it started fine, then Sunday morning nothing. I put a charger on it and it wouldn't charge more than halfway.......

New battery, and it cranked and fired up like it hadn't in along time. I think it was going for while and must have charged enough to keep me thinking it was something else. The that last time it just gave up the ghost.

Just a thought. It was going on 6 years old.

Joe

sicky olds

Also swapped the battery on the cars, started fine with the Rallye but no go on the H/O. Thanks for the input though

sicky olds

Its bypassed

sicky olds

Went and tried it anyways and still no starty

oldcutlass

Well all that leaves is wiring and the ignition switch.

sicky olds

Kinda hoping it wasnt the ignition switch... Is there anyway of testing that or easily getting to it?

tru-blue 442

Tom, check the ignition switch
on the end of the steering column.
If the wires are loose, bent rod, or the switch is bad,
it can cause this. Ask me how I know, lol.

sicky olds

I looked at it the best i could but it seemed like it was all good. When i clicked the key all the way as to start it i could here it click... but I will have to check it lol

pusatekm

I had mysterious starting and charging issues a few weeks back. I moved the ground cable from the front of the block to the first exhaust manifold bolt and all is well. You can test this with a pair of jumper cables just jump the ground on the battery to that manifold bolt. Also, I have seen a tach go bad and keep the car from starting even if you have full power. You can disconnect the tach wire from the coil to test that.

sicky olds

BRB with an update on that one lol

sicky olds

NO and NO Pusatekm, thanks for the idea though

oldcutlass

Check for 12v at where you jumpered the neutral safety switch. If its not there then check for 12v prior to and after the ignition switch.

sicky olds

Thank you sir i will have to try that .

stellar

I would check battery cables and their connections 1st especially if you heard the starter click.

rjohnson442

How old is the big starter wire and ground? They like to die from the inside out and can appear fine but be shorted out.

sicky olds

Sorry it wasnt the starter clicking it was the ignition switch i can hear clicking, as in the rod from the key was pushing it in and made contact

sicky olds

Just to make sure you are talking about the 2 big lines that come from the battery correct?

stellar

Yes. They can look good, but corrode from the inside under the insulation.

rjohnson442

Yes the two battery wires. If it won't crank from jumping it with a screwdriver or remote starter I'd suspect the cables.

sicky olds

Bought new battery cables, going to try that when i get the energy to play with it again lol

Octania

You need to determine where you do and don't have power. It sounds like your starter relay is not even clicking.

What car is this?
You may be able to access the purple START wire underhood, and not the inconvenient terminal on the starter itself. If that purple wire has no volts when the key is in START, then work back from that joint to the NSS to the Ign Switch etc.

If that purple wire to the starter DOES have volts like it should, then you need to go to the starter/ solenoid and see who failed there.

One good suspect is your starter support brace which also serves as a torque strap and GROUND PATH. The only things left between that and the battery are
Block
block to Gnd cable connection
Ground cable itself
terminal at battery

And of course the battery. A quick test of the battery might be in order.

sicky olds

Its on the Hurst and I know this will sound bad but what grounding strap? I havent had one on either of my cars and they run fine. I thought they get there ground from the mounting bolts.

MDchanic

There is supposed to be a ground strap from the back of one head (generally passenger side) to the firewall, otherwise the ground path from the body is pretty much through the shifter linkage.

- Eric

oldcutlass

Ground will pass through anything item bolted to the frame and feed back through the drivetrain, steering linkage, etc. I don't think the one little ground strap will make or break the engine starting. the starter gets full battery voltage due to the main grounding of the negative battery cable and an indirect connecting to the battery +.

tru-blue 442

It is bradied. Your firewall will thank you.
And all electrical will as well. My .05

Octania

Its on the Hurst and I know this will sound bad but what grounding strap? I havent had one on either of my cars and they run fine.
=======================
Many cars do fine w/o one, agreed. If you ck the assembly manual and PN manual they should tell if your car is supposed to have one. I see a '69 H/O starter f/s here that does not even have the hole to secure such a strap to though.

I thought they get there ground from the mounting bolts.
===================
I used to think that too, before that one day. Normally, I am sure that's true. Electricity takes not just any but ALL PATHS that it can. Then comes that one day when no paths are left. Such was my fate.

Selling a car- 76 LeMans with an Olds 350 I put in it after the P350 died. wanted it to be in good shape, so I peeked in the starter, replaced brushes, mitaswell clean and PAINT the case, right. Reassemble, bench tests ok.

Put in car. Strap is a huge PITA, leave that off. No Workee. WTH?

Remove, bench test, works fine

Put in car, NW. Grrrrr....

Remove starter again, BENCH TESTS FINE.... ground cable clamped on the oh I forget, solenoid bracket? End cap bearing nipple?

Put her back in the car
NO WORKEE.
#$%^@%^@%@^@@^^@$%&@^

Have the wife turn the key while I tap the starter with a Ford Tool.
SPARKS between freshly PAINTED case and nose piece. Bad ground connection.
Installed the strap, fixed it forever.

Installing the strap was a PITA
R&R'g the starter several times, a piece of cakewalk.

But, we digress.

OP, find out if you are losing the circuit on the way INTO the starter or on the way OUT OF it. And verify the battery is strong. New is NOT necessarily good. BTDT.

While the body ground is important for many reasons, it should not affect the operation of the Starter and/or Solenoid.

Olds_71_442

Yep. I changed engines in my Trans Am and forgot to hook up the ground. It grounded through my shifting cable and melted it to the point of my not being able to take the car out of gear.

oldcutlass

Seriously? I truly find this hard to believe. Let's think about this, we have a very large battery cable feeding the starter +, we have a very large battery cable feeding the engine block. We have a 10-12 ga wire feeding the starter solenoid. How is the path of least resistance through the shifter linkage or cable?

Olds_71_442

Seriously. I went to put the car in reverse and the cable was seized. I originally thought it was a linkage problem, but when I took it out, the cable was stuck to the sheath. I got it loose after awhile, but it pulled so hard it wasn't worth reusing.

radioburningchrome

Remove the negative battery cable. Check for a high resistance. Replace cable if necessary.

MDchanic

Sure. The curent for the starter itself goes from the heavy cable through the starter and block, and back through the heavy ground cable, but all current for anything other than the starter, starter solenoid, and coil, has to get from the body to the block before it can get to ground, and without a ground strap, the shifter linkage is a major candidate.

- Eric

oldcutlass

Come on Eric, think about it, there are numerous ways for the body to get a ground through the transmission, powertrain, steering linkage, parts of the suspension, etc. The whole car is bolted together. That one tiny little ground strap does not ground the body. I agree it helps to have it, but it ain't the only thing, sorry.

MDchanic

Depends on how well the car was painted and how well all the parts are lined up.

We can assume that the body is electrically connected to the frame, but the frame is connected to the engine only at the transmission mount and the motor mounts, none of which provide a reliable electrical connection, unless things are rubbing that aren't technically supposed to.

The exhaust system is hung on the frame with rubber-isolated hangers, and rubber should be isolating the engine from the frame.

The transmission is connected to the driveshaft is connected to the rear end, but the rear end is connected to the frame with rubber-isolated bushings, and the brake line is connected through a rubber hose.
The emergency brake cables are steel-cored, but they do not create a high-quality path, especially if they are not used often and are rusted.

So, essentially, you have the shifter linkage and the emergency brake cables electrically connecting the engine to the body - they may do the job, or they may not, but they are not reliable or low-resistance.

I can say that when I got my car, I was briefly perplexed as to why the (modern) stereo would cut out for a second (needed a few additional seconds to "reboot") whenever I shifted the TH400.
After some thought, I connected a jumper from the battery ground to the core support, and, bang, no more problems.

You may be lucky, but this is a real problem that happens to real people.

- Eric

stellar

Way too many times have I heard the phrase "it's just a ground wire". Way too many times I have found a bad ground to be the problem of a malfunction. I have seen many problems from bad grounds. All of the obvious of course, but also bad bearings in alternators and waterpumps. Throttle cable welded stuck in open position. One fellow even had a nice fire from his fancy steel braided fuel line becoming a ground circuit. This brings me to the fact that the ground circuit is just that a CIRCUIT. It is just as important as the hot side of the circuit. It carries amperage and amperage creates heat. Same as the hot side. I don't think you would leave a hot wire off just because another hot wire would carry the current. That would overload the circuit. A wire diagram seems to lead folks to think the ground ends. It doesn't. It is a circuit. It must all come together. A missing wire here a bad connection there a bit of paint here a bit of rust there, overloaded circuit here making high resistance and something has to give. That sneaky electricity likes to go everywhere, but it will take the path of least resistance. Too many blocked paths or resisted paths will make it go where it isn't supposed to. Just for the heck of it try this. Put one end of your voltmeter on the battery positive and the other in the radiator coolant. I will bet quite a few of you will find you have some voltage floating around in your antifreeze. Strange, but it can happen. You can't have too many grounds so check em, clean em, and add more if you have any doubt. Just don't leave any off.

citcapp

The hot or positive wire as we call it is made from low resistance copper which is great because that allows the smaller wire sizes. Now lets look at the ground in our older cars. The ground which is the return path for the positive is the body, frame, and other metal parts all held together with nuts bolts rivets, and screws. Steel is a high resistance return path and every loose or corroded connection increases the resistance in the return path. This does not cause many problems with low amp draw items but is big deal with your starter which has the highest amp draw of any item in your car. The ground strap from the body to the frame insures that the ground path has least amount of resistance.

I use a stock starter on my 10.5 - 1 455 and have no problem starting the engine even when its hot. How? I run a #8 ground direct from a battey terminal block to the engine block. The shortest run of cable give you the best performance. If your battery is in the trunk run both the Ground and hot in #4 locomotive cable.

50 years as an electrician must have left me with some experience

Troys Toy 70

It can happen with AC electric too. Had an electrician in the family, and wired a lead for my generator to the opposite end of my house from the breaker box. I had an industrial switch that had screw in fuses for each leg, given to me and used it between the lead and the pig tail for an emergency off. Tried the generator blew up several of the electronics in the house. The fuse on the ground leg was bad. Bottom line even with ac, electric takes path of least resistance.

Sampson

Ok, so if you suspect the ground is the problem you can check by running your test light backwards. Hook the ground clamp to the positive battery cable and touch the starter with the probe. No light equals no ground. I had a battery fail last year that presented the same type problem. Lights horn and all electrical circuits seemed to work great but when you hit the key nothing. Tried to jump start and nothing. Tested battery with voltmeter and read 12.5 volts . Thought it was the starter and had it towed to a reputable shop. They kept it a day and said it needed to go to the dealer. Towed it 50 miles to the dealer who kept it for a week and replaced every electrical component in the system including the computer. Finally a week and 1/2 later they called and sheepishly told me they traced the problem the battery that was shorted internally. Expensive battery!

RROLDSX

Don't recall the exact problem, but years ago that happened to me and for some strange reason it ended up being the wire to the headlights from the battery being loose/corroded. Not sure why this was part of the starting circuit. And another time it was a bad high beam foot switch. Both of these problems on two different GM early 70's cars. Hope this helps.

sicky olds

Dont think its the battery, I swapped it with the Rallye and it started fine in the rallye and it started right up. Put the Rallye battery in the H.O and it did not start.