dfire25

There is some talk on another thread about finding build sheets in headliners. I didn't want to hyjack someone else's thread so I decided to start my own.

Has anyone found a build sheet in a headliner? If so where? Can you get to it without tearing out the headliner?

I have a 71 Lansing built 442 non W-30. I have also heard that Lansing doesn't include build sheets with their cars. Any truth to this?

GAOldsman

I haven't personally heard of buildsheets in the headliner, but I have heard of them shoved into the A pillar cavity. And there has yet to surface an actual buildsheet from this period from Lansing. Assembly workers were told to throw them away after the build

Kevin45

I've never heard of them in the headliners until the Gas Monkey garage built a COPO Camaro and Richard Rawlings and Dennis had to build it. They put it up on the roof under the headlining. So maybe someone is going by that and think that they USED to do it. Most I have ever seen were under the back seat or under the rear carpet.

But I guess it would be a chance that some were up there. No one knows what happened on a Friday right before quitting time.

1970cs

Here is some pics from Lansing with the build sheets present! B&C car line.
Also note the clipboard on the engines.

Pat

GAOldsman

Great shots Pat

Koda

Wow, the safety violations and inefficiency in those pics! My guys would have a cow.

Allan R

The headliners had to be installed before a lot of the other interior trim, which IMO means it's highly unlikely to find a build sheet stuffed up in there. It's one of the last things the assembly lines ditched close to the completion of the car. Keep in mind that there was only one build sheet the Assembly line worked with, but there were several broadcast cards that Fisher worked with when they assembled the body and shipped it to the factory for final assembly. That should be a good clue when looking for a build sheet. Freemont seemed to like putting them on top of the fuel tank. I've also heard of them being behind a kickpanel or under the parcel shelf.

As Scot said, it's extremely rare to find a Lansing build sheet, but other factories weren't as diligent with housekeeping as LAN. The Most build sheets I've seen are from Freemont, Arlington and Framingham (in that order).

marxjunk

never heard of one in a headliner..not in 45 years....

Ive found them in
back seat bottoms
under the carpets in various places
under the tar paper under the carpet in various places
in the drivers door panel
on the drivers door under the door panel
under the dash, up under the pad in a void next to the windsheild on the drivers side
taped to the fiber board on both sides under the back seat between pass area and trunk
taped to the inside of a fender up under the wheel house
under a spare tire
under a trunk mat

found 20+ diff in one car, behind the drivers seat under the carpet, stapled together in 2 lots

Allan R

You got my curiosity going Mark. Are you saying you found 20+ BUILD sheets or 20+ Broadcast cards? Reason I ask is I've never heard of more than 1 build sheet accompanying the car on final assembly, but there were lots of broadcast cards left (by Fisher Body works) in exactly the places you described.

Koda

I'm not sure how the Fisher plant did the bodies before they went to Final Assembly, but I would posit that the headliner was in already. I don't think build sheets were in the Fisher facility. If the Fisher line was comparable to a modern trim line, things on it would be the dash, the carpet, the console, the headliner, the sunroof, A pillar trim, and maybe front and rear glass.

Final line things are doors back on, seats, large interior panels like the quarter panel trim. Fuel tank is a chassis thing. I would think fuel tank is the best chassis dump spot and under seats, or under unglued edges of carpets, or inside doors are the best final spots.

Allan R

Koda, that was my thinking also. The Fisher body works was responsible for assembling the car body from scratch and installing the interior trim. It's my understanding that there were Fisher plants close to all the assembly lines so there would not be a delay in production. Also, if you look at the cowl tag that pretty much confirms the different fisher plant locations as they dealt with body production, not final assembly which would be the VIN information.

I believe Fisher would send the completed body assembly from the cowl back to the final assembly, where the chassis, driveline and front clip/doors were added.

1970cs

Allan, you mentioned only build sheet per car, if you look closely at pics 1 and 3, with some speculation here; one on the dash and one taped to the wind shield.

With out good access to my ex-father in law (final assembly Lansing) I believe that one for work on the inside and the one taped to the outside for people out side for bumper styles i.e. rub strips or bumper guards also body side moldings on the fenders and possibly engine accessories (harness connections) A/C, cruise etc.

Pat

jag1886

I have the build sheet for my car and I also found a hand written sheet with part of the codes on it in the front seat when I pulled it apart.

Allan R

Pat, you could be right but I have no way to validate either my position or yours. It would be really nice to have first hand corroboration if you can get it?

marxjunk

yes..20 different sheets for 20 consecutive cars, i guess youd call them broad cast sheets..they where the big ones

it was like maybe the last car of the day and instead of hittong the trash they went into the floor pan

Allan R

Sounds like they were build sheets if they were the large ones. The broadcast cards were smaller approx 4"x8". By any chance did you keep any of them? It would be really cool to see what the assembly line sequencing looked like given that cross sample. I'd bet not every car was the same body style....

marxjunk

i didnt keep them..i was in my 20s...and they where neat to look at, but not really collectable or what ever you would call it.

they where 3 or 4 diff body styles, some 2 doors, some 4 doors and a red LS6 chevelle with a 4 speed..young and dumb

they came from a red on red L48 4 speed 70 chevelle..


some montes, a wagon which was a 3 speed stick..and i cant remeber the rest been way too long..over 25 years i guess

wmachine

Thanks for posting that, Pat. That exactly shows what the assembly line workers used in the assembly. In later years that large sheet (essentially the build sheet with broadcast codes) was put up on a large screen. In final assembly they were not using the broadcast card or the build sheet.


Not true. See above. Besides, look at the logic. Almost all of the locations where they are found are not possible to be put at the end of the assembly line. You can be sure they didn't pull up a carpet to look at or insert a build sheet.
I can believe you think there was was only one, but you state that as a fact.

Allan R

Point taken; that does make sense. Same process as Fisher broadcast cards? Thank you for clarifying.

GAOldsman

Basically Fisher Body was responsible of the body from the cowl back to the trunk. So yes that includes the headliner, dash, seats, carpet, sail panels, package tray, etc. The final assembly plant installed the body onto the chassis that possibly already had the engine, transmission and everything in between. Then probably mounted the doghouse which was the front inner and outer fenders, core support and front grilles and bumpers. In the order that the assembly plant had laid out.

Yes they had to know body style, seat style, transmission choice for shifter location and style, interior and exterior color scheme for carpet, seats and trim and so on so they could build what was requested.

Allan R

Ah ha! I just learned something new again today... I always thought that process was handled by the broadcast cards....

wmachine

No, the "build sheet" as we know it was not at Fisher Body. It was a final assembly document. Like at final assembly, there was a Fisher Body manifest that they built the cars to. Think of it as a "master plan". Broadcast cards were by-products and used for component tracking. Thus multiple broadcast cards existed. There were "Accessory Codes" used at Fisher Body to let them know what options required specific body related details.

Allan R

Let me see if I understand this - correct the parts that are wrong please as I'm just trying to understand it in simple terms.

1. The Assembly Lines at Lansing, Freemont, Framingham etc all had 'Build Sheets' as this was final assembly, and there could be multiple build sheets on the AL to facilitate work being done. (Just a side note, I think it's really amazing that more Build sheets didn't actually make it out of the Assembly Plants.)

2. Fisher cards may show various components of their master manifest? But there wasn't any master manifest left in any cars - it would simply be the subset broadcast cards that reflected what the master required? It would seem that some of the master manifest items would also be reflected on the Build sheets though?

orange442

This Oldsmobile Production Code "B" 1970 Model "build sheet" for my 70 W-31 was supposed to have been found in my headliner. My 70 SX also had one of these and another like it but it was "A" instead of B and had red writing and red outlined boxes but only had a few boxes filled. These were also said to be from the headliner. These came from previous owners already out so I am going by what they told me but I am inclined to believe them because they were 2 different guys that gave the same info. These sheets measure 8.5" width x 7" height. The smaller broadcast card that came with this sheet was said to have been in or under one of the seats and the second broadcast card I found was under rubber floor mat right in front of the driver seat belt retractor. I also found one in this exact same location on a Lansing built 69 Cutlass.

rustyroger

What percentage of cars actually left the factories with the build sheets tucked away somewhere?. A lot of cars didn't because there was no reason to leave them in other than it was easier than throwing it in the trash.

Of the 12 American cars I've owned I only found a build sheet in a Mk6 Lincoln, and I found two in that, both with carbon copies and carbon paper (remember that?) intact.

Roger.

orange442

There is no possible way to even guess a percentage because it was not a written part of the process to leave it, most were told not to leave them in.

I have found quite a few build sheets and hope to keep finding them:

1970 W-31 above
1969 Cutlass above
1969 Chevelle SS 396 4 spd(still have this one) back seat 1 build sheet
1970 Monte Carlo SS 454(Dads#2) 1 on top of gas tank perfect condition
1970 Buick GS455 2 sheets in upper section back seat
1972 Monte Carlo upper section back seat(partial w/special order paint)
1971 Monte Carlo bucket seat
1968 Delta 88 back seat
half dozen or so 78-up Montes, Malibus, Regals, etc. above headliner
77 Chevy truck seat

My Dad bought his first 70 Monte Carlo SS 20+years ago and it had 2 very nice build sheets guy found above gas tank and inside car.

I have seen others taped to back of door panel, under carpet, under console. My Dad found one between inner fender well and cowl on a Monte. I have heard them being many other locations like posted above but I personally not seen them.

GAOldsman

So you are saying that plants like Fremont and Framingham stuffed these build sheets under carpeting, into seat backs, in door panels, etc after Fisher Body completed them? I don't think so.

GAOldsman

This is a broadcast card and one for a W31 at that Way cool brother!

1970cs

I speculate that picture #1 is a chassis build sheet. If you read through the boxes, it would be almost 95% of what the chassis would look like before body drop.

See picture #2 chassis before body drop, Lansing circa 1973.
I would hope that davebw31 is looking at this! I believe he has seen this first hand at Lansing.

Pat

dfire25

Did they give you a general location where in the headliner they found these sheets? Did they have to take the headliner completely down to find it? This is the last hope I have to find ANY documentation on my 442, so I would like to give it a try.

GAOldsman

dfire25 as I mentioned above, if your car was assembled in Lansing then don't bother taking out the headliner. Unless it is in poor enough shape to warrant the search, otherwise it is a goose chase.

wmachine

The manifest was the collection of data (call it a master plan), not a piece of paper. Various paperwork was generated from the manifest. The term "broadcast" comes from the basis that that codes and information are "broadcast" from a central database to various locations make the cars.
The "broadcast cards" are just a form of downstream information that evolved from similar tags that preceded 1968. Since Fisher Body was separate, they had their own assembly plan and documents.
Remember that this was in the middle of the evolution from the coach builders being totally separate companies to being fully integrated into the automaker. So in the '60s, Fisher Body was a separate division of GM.

wmachine

Correct, that is not a "broadcast card" nor a full "build sheet" either as we know them. I've only seen these for Lansing cars.

dfire25

My headliner isn't in the greatest shape, but it's all there. I'll probably wait till I change it (if I ever do) to check to see if there's anything there.

Thanks for the great info guys! Truly a great education for all of us.

davebw31

WMachine, GAOLDSman, and my friend in Oklahoma, ORANGE442 have it pretty correct.

Do not confuse the two "build sheets". The large multi copy "Assembly Plant Build Sheet" is for the final assembly plant IE, mating of body to chassis, and completion of the car. The "Fisher Body Plant" build sheet or really it was called the "Broadcast Code Card" was a sub-build sheet of the "Fisher Master build sheet" generated by the "Key Punch Room" down in the basement of Bldg. 70. The "Key Punch Operator" used the info (two letter codes) from the "Wharehouse Order" submitted by the "Zone Sales Rep", which was generated by the "Dealer Order" sent to their "Zone Office". The "Key Punch card" was fed in to a huge and I mean huge IBM computer which then printed out the "Fisher Broadcast Code Card" and the "Final Assembly and Chassis Assembly Line build sheets" ( like the one posted by ORANGE442 ).

At Lansing the "Final Assembly and Chassis Build Sheets" were thrown away. I can only verify this starting in summer of 69' during the 70' model run and on through April 73'.

The "Fisher Broadcast Card" were put in the car just before the front seat(s) were put in and all those previously stated locations by forum posters. A lot of times I saw with my own eyes several Fisher Cards for other previous built bodies thrown on to the floor or stuffed in a seat just to get rid of them. This was a no-no, but when no one was looking, well it happened more often than not! I never reported it, as I though it was not a big deal back then. Mainly the Fisher Cards really just told about "piercing" of 1/4 s, doors, deck lid for moldings or none like a W30/31 because they would have stripes. As far as the large Fisher Build Sheet, I never knew what happened to them. I would guess thrown away.

As stated the Chassis Build Sheet was really an extra. When the frame was put in its assembly fixture a large white fiber board embossed with different squares which would have the "Two Letter Codes" in them telling the line worker what to do/install. This board was attached to the frame using the core support mounting holes to hold it. Later as stated the codes were "projected" on to the board. The chassis was assembled "upside down". Hence why you will find the "TM and TO" coded rears to be upside down as the letters were "hand stamped" after the rear was installed in the chassis.

The Lasing "Final Assembly Build Sheets" were thrown away in to two 55 gallon drums, one on each side, at the "Driveline Test Rollers". This was the end of assembly. The cars were then driven over to the "Final Inspection Building", across Logan Street, for inspection of the completed car. This was also where the W stripes were applied. If ok they were driven to the parking/storage lot behind the building. There was a multi-rail head for shipping by rail and where the cars could also be loaded for shipping by truck.

davebw31

check under the front seat first. then the back seat and bottom cushion. most times you may find one as there were several ones (copies) put in the cars.

BTW: Nice Rallye

GAOldsman

Thanks Dave for clearing that up

I wouldn't think that workers at the assembly plant would remove the seats or rip up the carpeting already installed by Fisher just to "hide" the build sheets commonly found in the Framinham and Fremont cars.

jtdb153

Thanks, I will check those locations.

Boilerz25

Any suggestions where to look for my card for a 1969 Fremont, CA 442? I am going to start a tear down soon and I would like to limit the mess in searching.

Thanks

Carshinebob

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...ile-essay.html
Here's a link to an essay I wrote a while back that has more info.
Some differences in assembly plants are that Lansing was the only Fisher plant that had to move bodies by truck to final assembly. My understanding (I've never been to the other plants) was that the other Fisher Body plants were attached to final assemblies. Therefore cars were transfered from Fisher Body to Oldsmobile by crossing a line on the floor of the assembly line. This information I think is in Helen Earley's book Setting The Pace, However I don't have a copy in front of me. It could have been one of her other articles. Any way It would make sense that interiors would have build sheets at plants that were run as a complete start to finish assembly lines. All plants except Lansing seemed to use build sheets to co-ordinate interiors in the trim departments. Where as lansing used the Fisher cards. Cheers! ~BOB