dsp52

I need help with just one item on a broadcast sheet (or card?) for a '70 Olds Cutlass Rallye 350 that is for sale. The seller has a broadcast sheet or card that is supposed to be for this car. The seller claims it is a real Rallye 350. Should the broadcast sheet have "W-45" printed in box #3, or some other box, to indicate that it is a Rallye 350. There isn't any W-15 printed anywhere on the sheet. Sorry, but I have no way to post a picture of the sheet. I've requested a photo of the VIN# to see if it was built in Lansing as my understanding is the Rallye 350s only came out of Lansing. I'm supposed to look at the car tomorrow. Thanks!

droldsmorland

Is this a survivor, resto or parts car?
You sound Olds savvy. So you know Olds performance codes are prefixed with a W...W30, W31, W32. W45 is the Rallue 350 option code. No W-15 code.
Yes only produced in Lansing, should have an M in the vin. Post a pic of the cowl tag. pic if you can get it. I'll decipher the rest. You need the cowl tag and the vin to get close to authentication.

Block, trans case, frame numbers should match the vin. Much of the Rally 350 can be bolted together using Cutlass or 442 parts including the FE2 HD suspension. The engine is a standard 350 in Automatic or Stick shift form with calibrated carb, & dist.

What is the build date of the car? Shouldn't be earlier than 01A, Jan of 70. If it is I need to know as I track these cars.
Is it a Coupe or Hardtop? Cutlass, F85 or Cutlass "S". Stick or Auto? Stick can be a 3 or 4 speed,

There are ZERO official records indicating the factory built a W31 Rallye 350 small block high perf Olds engined car
If they make the claim ask for bulletproof documentation then buy it. It will be the only one known.

Does it have any other paperwork? the POP and window sticker is a plus.
The line card is most likely not in the car. Few of any Lansing cars retain their line cards, performance, or other. Other Olds plants did. I have never seen a Lansing R350 line card...a real one.

The color is Sebring Yellow. Should be a - - on the cowl tag indicating special order. color

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...rs-4091/page2/

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...uction-127370/

dsp52

Sorry, I'm hopeless at uploading pictures from my phone to anywhere else. Seller just sent me pics of VIN which has an "M". Whole VIN is 336870M245736. Picture of Data Plate shows: ST70 33687LAN345479, BDY PNT shows - - to left of of it where paint code # usually is. Far left, next row shows; TR 930, and under that in third row is 01B. That's it. Should the data plate # after the LAN, which is 345479 as mentioned earlier match the # in the "Body Number" box at the top of the broadcast sheet/card which is 343972 ? I was thinking those should be the same number.
And, sorry for not mentioning this earlier. This is a restomod. Visually, the exterior of the car looks correct except for the wheels. It has the yellow body with painted bumpers, fiberglass hood with the intake vents, and rear deck lid spoiler. Engine was changed out for what the seller claims is a (need to verify tomorrow) '70 Olds 442 455cid engine. Engine was retrofitted with Holly Sniper EFI with a new aluminum dual fan radiator from Summit. They're also claiming it has new B.M.R. Stage 2 suspension, new Proforged steering, and a new center forced clutch?? It also has newer, bolstered bucket seats. I can see new bushings in photos of cars suspension along with what appear to be red coil springs over tubular A-arms. There is a sway bar in the rear along with one in front, of course. It also appears to have headers.

dsp52

Build date shown on broadcast sheet/card is 01, 14 in second and third boxes at the top left. It's a Holiday Coupe Cutlass. It has a 4 speed, Hurst manual, but I'm not sure if it's an M20 or M21.

dsp52

Remaining codes on Broadcast sheet/card are: Box 5- A51 (bucket seats?); Box 8- C60 (air conditioning ?); Box 9- U80 (rear seat speaker?) I know there is some disagreement over whether you could get A/C with a 4 speed manual, but some believe you could, and it would be the M20 with only a 3.23 rear end. I need to check the rear axle code to see if it's an "SF" which would be the 3.23, I believe.

dsp52

OK, after a lot of fiddling on my phone and some trial and error, I finally figured out how to upload the VIN and data plate photos the seller sent me. I'm still concerned about the body# on the broadcast card not matching the data plate body number. I can't send a photo of the broadcast code because it wasn't sent to me. I only saw a picture of it in his online ad. I can take a picture of it tomorrow when I inspect the car. I know that if this is a real Rallye 350 that it's lost its originality due to the replacement 455 engine, and some other mods, but I kind of dig how it looks because it's unusual, and if it runs and drives well, then I might be OK with it. Purists might disagree, and I'm OK with hearing anyone's thoughts about this car, good or bad.

fleming442

Is the title clear?
The mismatch numbers would deter me. Also, is it being advertised as a real Rallye? I hate how bad the scammers and flippers have scarred the market. You don't know WTH you're buying, unless you know the seller very well. I'm fine with tribute and clone cars as long as they're not perpetrated as real deal. Don't pi$$ on my leg, then try to tell me it's raining.

dsp52

It is being advertised as a real Rallye 350 with the mods that I've listed from the seller's listing. It seems like the VIN# and data plate look right, but I'm not sure about the broadcast card he says goes with this car since it doesn't have the W-45 code on it anywhere, and the body number on the broadcast card doesn't match the body number on the data plate. The only thing that sort of matches on the broadcast card is the paint color which is listed as 51/51 which is Sebring Yellow, but I did read that there were some regular '70 Cutlass customers who were able to order that color. I don't know, if in that case, the data plate would still show a - - for the paint code, or not. I'm planning on seeing the car this morning, and I will take photos of the broadcast card assuming the seller will allow it. The seller says he's had the car less than a year, and needs the money to sink into a new 5th wheel and truck to pull it. It sounds like he bought the car with all the mods already in place.

I'm not sure I like the Holly Sniper EFI that was added. It just seems like something that could get a "bug" at some point and cause problems, but I'm not familiar with them at all. Anyone have any experience with those, and how hard would it be to change everything back to a regular carburetor? Would a new manifold be required to change it back to a regular carburetor?

dsp52

I'd like to hear back from "droldsmorland" on this as he seems to know a lot about the Rallye 350.

RetroRanger

To me its not a rallye 350 but a modified cutlass. It sounds like the car doesnt have a lot of original parts left. It may have been a rallye, but to bring it back to a rallye is much work and $, and still not the original engine. My longwinded point is buy and price it like a cutlass w Replacement engine.

re efi simply remove the efi and wiring and replace w a carb then tune!

the efi seems to fall into two general camps set up and runs well or set up and problematic.

there is a rallye for sale near me i know nothing about it or the seller ill see if i can find a link….couldnt find it

tnswt

If the car is advertised as modified, why so much concern for correct documentation? If you bite the hook for this one, like Fleming442 mentioned, you better know what you are getting because like most of these cars maintenance records are scarce; when it comes to service, repairs, and such the lack of what has been done to the engine and body complicates matters--big time.

In my opinion, it sounds to me like you are after the real-deal, but yet, you are considering a modified/clone?

fleming442

Removing the efi could be easy or hard, depending on how it was done. Technically, it's only a 4 wire hookup. If it's an in-tank pump, that would need to be dealt with. Either way, you should not have to change the manifold.
I'd price it like a tribute, especially if the seller didn't build it or have any idea of its history. It's just a yellow Cutlass with a 455; at least it's not an LS,......yet.

tnswt

I thought I recognized your screen name; you were all hot and bothered by a 67-442 just a week or two ago--now this Rallye 350 car seems to be the one.

If in your shoes, I'd move forward cautiously, buying a car such as this is a big dollar move, so just be certain you get what you truly want. Happy Motoring!

dsp52

Well, I don't know that I was hot and bothered, but I was interested in the '67 442. I looked at it and drove it. Cosmetically it was pretty nice, but it didn't go down the road very well, so I passed on it. I'm not totally sold on this car because of all the mods that have been done. I'm just trying to look at as many cars as I can to get more familiar with them. I looked at a '68 442 the other day, as well, but it had body filler cracks and some areas where it had fallen off. It was mechanically the best car I've checked out so far, but I didn't want to get into fixing the body as I won't have that kind of $ once I spend most of my budget on the purchase. But, yeah, I am try to be very cautious. What I really want is a nice 442, but I don't have the money for what they are asking for the nice ones.

tnswt

I understand, we all have similar dilemmas.

As you know, you should buy the best car your money can buy. Classic cars can be a blessing, a curse, or anything in-between.

If you truly want a nice 442, then I would concentrate on finding a nice 442 since that is what you want. Patience pays off; I’m certain there is a nice 442 out there for you.

Happy Motoring!

tnswt

By the way, Dsp52, unless I overlooked it, I don't see where you put up a Car Wanted ad for your 442 on this site? That would be one of the first things to do. I'd also include my location, car specifics, and budget in the listing.

dsp52

No, haven't done that. I will look into doing that. Thanks. And by the way, I think you're right in that I should stick to looking for what I want and be patient. This one happened to catch my eye and interested me since it has, supposedly, a '70 Olds 442 455 engine in it. There aren't many Olds 442s for sale around here that I can look at, and I'm afraid to buy one online that I can't really eyeball myself since they all seem to be quite some distance away in other states.

droldsmorland

Actually, doesn't sound like a bad car if it's clean, R350 or not??? 10-15K? Slightly higher for a nice clean straight car even a regular ole Cutlass. Emphasis on straight and clean. And is it an original stick car?

To be considered in the right manufacture range of an R350:
-The VIN and cowl tag looks OK. Rivets look good.
-01B third week of Jan 70 is OK. Early in the R350 run.
-336870 = Holiday coupe.
-245736 is in the right VIN range for a Rallye.
-345479 = Fisher Hull number. It shouldn't match the last 6 on the VIN. Well Known fact.
- Dash Dash paint code looks OK
-4 Speed w/AC would need docs to pov. In theory, AC looks available in the dealer lit according to some experts with M20 & 323 rear. But on a R350 is harder to prove.

"Careful interpretation of the factory order form would indicate that if the wide-ratio M-20 transmission were selected, then A/C could also be ordered, though only if the standard 3.23:1 rear gear ratio was retained; ordering A/C with the 3.42 or 3.91 ratios was expressly prohibited, even on automatic cars. However, some Rallye 350 experts feel that A/C and four-speed were simply not permitted to coexist on this model." <snipped from an old issue of Hemmings>

I'd like to see the W-45 line card!!!

Ask for the numbers off the engine. 455 is a plus. What heads are on it?
Does the trans ID number match the VIN? That would prove a stick AC Cutlass. Doubtful some would go through the trouble of installing AC, but it's plausible.

Just remember you will have just as hard of a time selling it as an R350 down the line. Priced right and you don't care, might be a good car cheap.
So do the best research you are comfortable with and pay what you think is fair.

droldsmorland

FYI: Rough around the edges but if all the metal is there....This is a good example of a 6-7-8K car if rust-free.
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...350-co-162436/

no1oldsfan

I don't see that car worth 11,500. Maybe five grand. Maybe.

dsp52

I looked at the car today. I didn't get to look at it as long as I wanted due to seller stating, "Oh, I forgot I had an appointment in 20 minutes. Sorry." Yeah, right. But, I did get a 396021F staring at me from the top shelf of the block above the water pump. The heads had a large "G" on them towards the front of the head facing out. The pad on the lower left of the block below the head read 31X111302, which looks like a '71 455, not the '70 the owner claimed it was. The heads had 409-100 on the sides. Then I was out of time because he was leaving. Prior to that I checked the suspension. It was all newer, tubular stuff with all the original gone at all four corners. I couldn't find the axle code due to my not fitting under the car. Looks like M20 manual trans. A/C appears to be factory installed. As mentioned in earlier posts (I think), non-original wheels (no yellow), after-market Recaro style front seats that turned me off because they don't fit the style, age of the car, etc., and they were uncomfortable. Wood look dash trim panels were changed to a fake carbon fiber look, but door trim panels still have wood look. Exterior decals changed to "Rallye 455" with non-original "W-45" decal on front fenders. The headliner was coming apart in the back seat.
The car did have a great road feel presumably due to the newer suspension components. Steering was very light and precise. I checked for body filler with my new paint thickness gizmo and there was very little filler in the body panels. 73 mils was my highest reading (1.8mm) in one or two places on quarter panels, and most were under 14 mils. Paint, overall, was in good condition.
The motor seemed to run very strong, and was supposedly rebuilt by previous seller to this one, however, there is absolutely no past paperwork or records on the car or engine. I asked him what made him think this was an original R350, and he said, "I have the build sheet," which is actually a broadcast card that I don't believe actually goes with this car because the body number on the broadcast card is different from the body number on the data plate. Plus, I would think that code W-45 would show up on the broadcast card like other W codes I have seen posted on online examples.
Seller is asking $37,500. With all the changes made and as expressed by other forum members, this is hardly an R350 with all the mods, but now it's a Cutlass S with yellow paint and yellow bumpers.
I contacted the seller this evening to tell him I would not be buying the car based on too many original R350 components being gone and no records or paperwork. But I gotta say one more time, the car drove great, and if nothing else, I can use that as an example of what I would like to have, eventually, in a car.
I'm going to take "tnswt"s advice and go after what I really want ('70-442) and be patient. But I did learn a lot on this, which I think is good.
Thank you for everyone's input. It was helpful.

fleming442

He'll get it, and it will go up again.

droldsmorland

No way 30 anything K for that car. If it was a pro-restomod done correctly maybe. This one doesn't sound pro.
For 25-35K you should be able to find a much nicer original or restored car, R350 or 442, with decent documentation.
Move on.

jensenracing77

I am late to the game here but to my knowledge there was no W-45 on the broadcast car for a Rallye 350. However, "IF" you happen to have the build sheets (VERY RARE TO HAVE) it WILL say Rallye 350 and W-45 printed right out on them. Both A and B sheets.

Eric

no1oldsfan

I agree with you. But the stupid money that is being paid for Oldsmobile's these days is just mind blowing. It really has become ridiculous.