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Check out your local nut bolt fastener store generally they have black oxide bolts and nuts or they did when I did my rebuild.The one I found supplied fasteners for most of the body shops in the area you might ask around at a few body shops and see who they use.
If that doesn't work in your area take your bolts to the local gunsmith he can blue black oxide your parts... Tedd
Caswell Plating is another source. They call it black oxide but it sounds like the same 15 minute dip process. Caswell also has a blackening coating for stainless, which would solve both the appearance and corrosion problem.
Mcmaster-carr has a unbelievable variety of fasteners in different materials and finishes. But you need to know exactly what you need. I ordered new black oxide flange bolts for a under hood refresh from them. Not exactly 100% like 1970 but 98% extremely close. Really just different manufactures markings and slight contour differences. Only Joe would know they weren't original ;-) Tom
the correct name for the process is Parkerizing, which deposits manganese. the parts must then be coated with oil. after about a year, they will start rusting, nothing that you can do but to keep re-applying oil to stop rusting. this is the Caswell product, tepid, at best. also, there may be concerns with hydrogen embrittlement, with the Parkerizing process.
what oem manufacturers are doing now is something i would love to get my hands on... it's a product made by a company named Magni. https://magnicoatings.com/products/b...ry/#automotive specifically Magni 591 https://magnicoatings.com/wp-content...Data-Sheet.pdf
i've taken bolts out of 10-15 year old vehicles, that use this process, and they look brand new. they also have a killer coating used on steel bolts into aluminum, that eliminates galvanic corrosion. again, 10-15 years later, and the bolts come out like they were installed last week, specifically, 554 556, and 556e.
bill
Last edited by BILL DEMMER; February 20th, 2018 at 05:28 PM.
I wonder if you could parkerize, then apply gun wax as a rust preventative.
The NRA museum waxes all firearms for corrosion protection. Not appropriate for lubrication, but those guns don't run anymore. Static bolts might be appropriate for this process after installation.
Caswell Plating is another source. They call it black oxide but it sounds like the same 15 minute dip process. Caswell also has a blackening coating for stainless, which would solve both the appearance and corrosion problem.
I use the Caswell kit and am pleased with the results.
the correct name for the process is Parkerizing, which deposits manganese. the parts must then be coated with oil. after about a year, they will start rusting, nothing that you can do but to keep re-applying oil to stop rusting. this is the Caswell product, tepid, at best. also, there may be concerns with hydrogen embrittlement, with the Parkerizing process.
bill
X2 on what Bill said. If you do the original coating and store the car in a cold winter garage then be sure before and after storage you spend a couple hours touching each and every bolt with a little oil. Don't take much and it will spread itself out all through the bolt head. They can start to turn a little brown color from rust but as log as you don't wait to long you can still oil them and look fine again.
I posted this on CO showing the great results that I got from using Palmetto Enterprises chemicals. The plated parts still look new to this day, as long as they have a coating of Boeshield. https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...ch-photos.html
Some useless information you may or may not need or want. True black oxide is what ferrous guns were and still are finished in. It is a solution( sodium hydroxide and distilled water among other salts) heated to about 295 degrees then the metal parts are submerged, cooked for as much as an hour or as needed then rinsed in boiling distilled water. Been there done that for about two hundred times. Different than Parkerizing which is a phosphate coating which is tough but flat and not black if not treated again in black oxide system to turn that greenish color to a flat black It will never come up to a high luster that you can get with black oxide if that matters on your nuts and bolts.
There is also rust blue which is not black oxide but leaves a rich deep dark blue black finish as seen on older stuff mostly high end doubles and hand guns like Parker shotguns and Luger pistols and the like. Lots of hand labor is involved just like anything done well and correct it will cost you a lot to get a rust blue finish on a classic firearm. Doubtful you will want that on your nuts and bolts though.
I posted this on CO showing the great results that I got from using Palmetto Enterprises chemicals. The plated parts still look new to this day, as long as they have a coating of Boeshield. https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...ch-photos.html
I have used Palmetto Enterprises products for 35 years. It was founded by Vernon Owens and has since passed and is now run by his son Scott Owens. I learned a lot from Vernon Owens about plating. He said that the gray phosphate/parkerizing was developed for use by the Navy for ocean going ships to prevent rust. The parkerizing leaves a dull finish but everybody wants the shiny oxide finish that doesn't last. Sometimes the parkerizing leaves a white film on the parts & when that happens,I use PB Blaster on them with a tooth brush and they look great. Some say the parts will rust after plating,if done correctly I have not experienced any rusting. My current car using this plating is over 4 years old with absolutely no rusting what so ever. The solution never goes bad if kept in a dark area away from sunlight and can be used over and over. It took me some time to learn the do's and don'ts of using this plating. I've seen the Eastwood type systems but they are not as good as this type of plating. The first time I met Vernon Owens was @ a swap meet where he had a display. He had a board with plated/unplated parts. One of the parts was a pair of pliers that one side had been plated and the other not plated. The display had been out in the rain and the plated side looked new where the unplated was rusted. That was proof enough for me. I just do what works for me and everybody else needs to do it their way.
Last edited by 66-3X2 442; January 16th, 2019 at 07:39 AM.
I have used Palmetto Enterprises products for 35 years. It was founded by Vernon Owens and has since passed and is now run by his son Scott Owens. I learned a lot from Vernon Owens about plating. He said that the gray phosphate/parkerizing was developed for use by the Navy for ocean going ships to prevent rust. The parkerizing leaves a dull finish but everybody wants the shiny oxide finish that doesn't last. Sometimes the parkerizing leaves a white film on the parts & when that happens,I use PB Blaster on them with a tooth brush and they look great. Some say the parts will rust after plating,if done correctly I have not experienced any rusting. My current car using this plating is over 4 years old with absolutely no rusting what so ever. The solution never goes bad if kept in a dark area away from sunlight and can be used over and over. It took me some time to learn the do's and don'ts of using this plating. I've seen the Eastwood type systems but they are not as good as this type of plating. The first time I met Vernon Owens was @ a swap meet where he had a display. He had a board with plated/unplated parts. One of the parts was a pair of pliers that one side had been plated and the other not plated. The display had been out in the rain and the plated side looked new where the unplated was rusted. That was proof enough for me. I just do what works for me and everybody else needs to do it their way.
Just wondering what the difference is between the zinc and manganese? I only knew of the manganese myself. Do you have an example of a part that would have been zinc phosphated? How do the colors compare of the two?
Just wondering what the difference is between the zinc and manganese? I only knew of the manganese myself. Do you have an example of a part that would have been zinc phosphated? How do the colors compare of the two?
The zinc phosphate is used for hood hinges/hood latches. See the below picture of my 66 3x2 car and look @ the hinges and hood latch. If you look close enough,you will see where a little rust came out from behind the rivet/overlapping parts of the hinge. It's not real visible to the naked eye but will show up in a photo.That rust film is caused by seepage from inside/behind,not everyday use. Those hinges still look new after 6 years. The black manganese is used for bolts and is actually dark gray. The zinc phosphate is the lighter gray. In reality there's not a lot of difference between the two.
Last edited by 66-3X2 442; January 16th, 2019 at 06:23 PM.
The zinc phosphate is used for hood hinges/hood latches. See the below picture of my 66 3x2 car and look @ the hinges and hood latch. If you look close enough,you will see where a little rust came out from behind the rivet/overlapping parts of the hinge. It's not real visible to the naked eye but will show up in a photo.That rust film is caused by seepage from inside/behind,not everyday use. Those hinges still look new after 6 years. The black manganese is used for bolts and is actually dark gray. The zinc phosphate is the lighter gray. In reality there's not a lot of difference between the two.
I am really enjoying the little I have played with it but the sad thing is, almost none of the parts on my 62's were phosphate. The 62's originally had painted hood hinges and all the bolts are either zinc plated or painted over. All the core support bolts were painted over. Nearly all the phosphate on the Jetfire is found on the carburetor, linkage, and turbo system. Even the suspension bolts were zinc plated. I bet there is not more than a hand full of phosphate on the car. I don't think I am going to get into the zinc plating.
I am really enjoying the little I have played with it but the sad thing is, almost none of the parts on my 62's were phosphate. The 62's originally had painted hood hinges and all the bolts are either zinc plated or painted over. All the core support bolts were painted over. Nearly all the phosphate on the Jetfire is found on the carburetor, linkage, and turbo system. Even the suspension bolts were zinc plated. I bet there is not more than a hand full of phosphate on the car. I don't think I am going to get into the zinc plating.
I also do the shifter linkage/mounting plate/body mount hardware/tri carb linkage and related parts. When doing the hood hinges,I do them with the springs installed,that way the phosphate coats between the coils. It takes a large stainless container to do the hinges that I had specially made. I also plate the carb bases on the tri carbs where most rebuilders/restorers paint them and even with the heat,they don't rust.. It's not for everybody but for those of us who like doing it,it's worth every bit of the effort.I'm not trying to talk anybody into anything,just joined the conversation about the subject. I use to offer a service to guys for plating but everybody wanted it done yesterday and thought the price wasn't thrifty enough. Like I said,to each his own.
Last edited by 66-3X2 442; January 16th, 2019 at 07:00 PM.
I also do the shifter linkage/mounting plate/body mount hardware/tri carb linkage and related parts. When doing the hood hinges,I do them with the springs installed,that way the phosphate coats between the coils. It takes a large stainless container to do the hinges that I had specially made. I also plate the carb bases on the tri carbs where most rebuilders/restorers paint them and even with the heat,they don't rust.. It's not for everybody but for those of us who like doing it,it's worth every bit of the effort.I'm not trying to talk anybody into anything,just joined the conversation about the subject. I use to offer a service to guys for plating but everybody wanted it done yesterday and thought the price wasn't thrifty enough. Like I said,to each his own.
I have a large turkey roaster with a stainless pan in it and then a crock pot for little stuff like bolts. I have not done anything large enough to use the large roaster but I have it for when I do. I hope to find more parts that will need it on my Jetfire when I blow it apart.
What is the black coating on the master cylinders? Was it paint or phosphate? On many of the cars I have parted that had the original master cylinders, the back side that is against the booster is always black and never looked like paint. I had always assumed it was phosphate of some kind.
I have a large turkey roaster with a stainless pan in it and then a crock pot for little stuff like bolts. I have not done anything large enough to use the large roaster but I have it for when I do. I hope to find more parts that will need it on my Jetfire when I blow it apart.
What is the black coating on the master cylinders? Was it paint or phosphate? On many of the cars I have parted that had the original master cylinders, the back side that is against the booster is always black and never looked like paint. I had always assumed it was phosphate of some kind.
I think they came different ways. Probably phosphated new and then I've seen some from GMPD painted black. My car has the master cylinder zinc phosphate.
Thank you for all who challenge the mind and seek to educate those who may not know, I am really enjoying this thread and it has convinced me to try Parkerizing, I also have a passion for scale hydroplanes and have built many from scratch I have done some small scale nickel plating with excellent results, another thing to think about LOL.. if you had a small pot metal part you can remove the chrome the same way as chrome plating just reverse the polarity, then you could repair the pot metal, then rechrome the part, I believe the sequence is copper, then nickel, then chromium, but it also involves some serious chemicals...
Thank you for all who challenge the mind and seek to educate those who may not know, I am really enjoying this thread and it has convinced me to try Parkerizing, I also have a passion for scale hydroplanes and have built many from scratch I have done some small scale nickel plating with excellent results, another thing to think about LOL.. if you had a small pot metal part you can remove the chrome the same way as chrome plating just reverse the polarity, then you could repair the pot metal, then rechrome the part, I believe the sequence is copper, then nickel, then chromium, but it also involves some serious chemicals...
It has been interesting and educational. I will be printing out this thread to place in a paper folder with a copy on an external hard drive. What great bunch of people that can share what they know and can do. I am frequently amazed by what I learn. Thank you all.
I have used Palmetto Enterprises products for 35 years. It was founded by Vernon Owens and has since passed and is now run by his son Scott Owens. I learned a lot from Vernon Owens about plating. He said that the gray phosphate/parkerizing was developed for use by the Navy for ocean going ships to prevent rust. The parkerizing leaves a dull finish but everybody wants the shiny oxide finish that doesn't last. Sometimes the parkerizing leaves a white film on the parts & when that happens,I use PB Blaster on them with a tooth brush and they look great. Some say the parts will rust after plating,if done correctly I have not experienced any rusting. My current car using this plating is over 4 years old with absolutely no rusting what so ever. The solution never goes bad if kept in a dark area away from sunlight and can be used over and over. It took me some time to learn the do's and don'ts of using this plating. I've seen the Eastwood type systems but they are not as good as this type of plating. The first time I met Vernon Owens was @ a swap meet where he had a display. He had a board with plated/unplated parts. One of the parts was a pair of pliers that one side had been plated and the other not plated. The display had been out in the rain and the plated side looked new where the unplated was rusted. That was proof enough for me. I just do what works for me and everybody else needs to do it their way.
I bought both zinc and manganese solutions from him last winter and today just tried the zinc. It was super simple and turned out great. I used it on a fuel door that had some seams that I knew paint was not going to get to. These doors rust out from inside these seams. Hopefully this will preserve it longer. Was harder taking the hinge apart than coating it.
Instead of starting a new thread I decided to post this in this thread.
I used the Manganese Phosphate solution mentioned above on these three brackets back at the very beginning of August to do a test. After coating them I sprayed the two on the left with WD-40 3 times and the one on the right with Boshield and left them out in the weather ever since. Direct sunlight and whatever weather come our way. None of them are rusting yet but the one sprayed with Boshield has a white substance on it. The side with the white is the side that was in direct sunlight and I suspect the sun turned the waxy substance to the Boshield white? The bottom side of all three look the same. The two I sprayed with WD40, the oil is completely gone with no hint of protection other than the phosphate. I am convinced that the phosphate overall I am using is just fine and trust to continue using it on my Jetfire, Just not sure if I will use the Boshield or WD40. I am going to scrub all three of these up and re-coat them with WD and Boshield and let them sit for a couple days and then salt spray them out in the weather and see how long it takes them to rust.
The coating has a tendency to leave a white film sometimes. When that happens,I spray PB Blaster on it and scrub with a toothbrush. That helps with protection and remove the white film.
Just to add to this. On 07-21 20 of last year I took these pictures. Left them in the weather with no oil all that time. 8 months. I then oiled them and they looked like new again That winter is sprinkled salt on them and added another one that was bare steal.
I oiled them one more time and you can tell that after nearly two years and some salt, they are starting to show age but still very presentable. This was direct weather.
Last edited by jensenracing77; July 29th, 2021 at 02:52 PM.
I like your scientific attempt at finding the differences in the coatings. If you want to accelerate the test so you don't have to wait 8 months, try this:
1) Get yourself a regular fish aquarium (empty, of course)
2) Place it outside where it will see direct sunlight
3) Mix up a combination of sodium chloride (salt) and calcium chloride in water. A spray bottle works good for this.
4) Put the parts in the aquarium and spritz them with the solution every few days. After spraying them, cover the top of the aquarium with something so the heat and moisture stays trapped inside.
5) Get ready to see the parts start corroding in short order.
The key is the wet/dry humidity cycles rather than keeping them constantly wet. As an interesting comparison, you should stick something that you know is austenitic (300 series) stainless steel and something that is bare, untreated cold rolled steel in the tank and watch what those do in comparison to your test pieces.
February 17th, 2018, 01:24 PM
