bdub217

Sell the car to a friend ...... or is it too late for that? Just because the title is in your friend's name don't mean the car can't be in your possession until this matter is solved. =) I really hope this works out for the better!!

jerseymike

this may be a little to late to help,but did your dad try one of those credit help services? the ones where they contact all the C/C companies you owe and come to a reasonable settlement,I've heard up to $.50cents on a $$ on just the outstanding balance and waive most accrued penalties.

not sure if it's possible at point since he's already filed but if it's money they're after, something is better than nothing.

just a thought and trying to be a little help.....

if that don't work,burn the car . it'll be the most expensive bonfire you ever saw but your car won't be walking away.

Highwayman

My experience with lawyers is they have no problem inventing numbers and for some reason it ends up that you have to prove otherwise. They will pull a number out of thin air or a warm, dark body orifice. The fact that you have to hire a lawyer to defend yourself just means more money for all of the lawyers involved.

As for the suggestion to burn the car, don't do it. It destroys the evidence of the true value and they can then claim whatever they want and you can't prove otherwise.

Gbodyfan, I wish you luck. You are just a pawn in a game that lawyers play and you can never win. You are lucky if you can successfully defend yourself.

jaunty75

It doesn't matter WHY your father declared bankruptcy. The point is, he did. When that happens, all sorts of legal machinery gets set in motion.

As others have said, a very common way for people declaring bankruptcy to hide assets is to sell them cheaply or give them to relatives in the months leading up to the bankruptcy filing, which is exactly what happened in your case. At least, that's what it looks like to an outside observer. I'm not saying the car was sold cheaply or undervalued in your particular case. That's still to be determined, and I personally think that the $3,000 you paid was a fair price given your verbal description of the car. But your situation raises all the common red flags.

Those credit card companies, as evil as those big banks might be, loaned your father money in good faith, and now they're not going to get paid back, or they'll get a few cents on the dollar. Can't blame them for wanting to be repaid, and you can't blame them or all their "evil" lawyers for pressing to get as much money as possible for whatever assets the debtor does have.

jaunty75

I'm curious. What was your situation where a lawyer invented a number, and you had to prove it was wrong?

DoubleV

Can you just sell the car to a trusted friend and tell em you don't own it anymore so tough $hit for them? Can they go after some random guy ( they don't know he's a friend ) and tell him he owes money because of the previous previous owner? Sell it for 3k or less too!

Yeah this kind of goverment extortion pisses me off. Just because some people try to 'cheat' by hinding their assets by selling to family members, everybody will now and forever be accused of doing so as a result even during legit transactions.

Highwayman

Divorce. My lawyer ask her lawyer where he got his numbers. Her lawyer said he just guessed and wanted to be sure he ask for enough. Several hours and a stack of papers on my part, a couple extra hours of legal fees. But still cheaper than rolling over.

jaunty75

Ah, my sympathies. My sister went through a divorce about 10 years ago, and I remember her experience. It was as unpleasant as yours sounds.

Highwayman

Mine was 29 years ago. And 28 years ago. And 27 years ago. I thought it would never end. I had won custody of our daughter she abandoned and was ready to go after her for child support when I told her to ask her lawyer how much his bill was going to be. I pointed out he wasn't working for free. The next time I saw her she wanted no more, it was over. Funny how that worked. She remarried 3 times and buried all 3 within a few years and now lives off their estates. I was the only survivor.

Back to Gbodyfan, I think he's just getting used as a pawn. If the lawyers can't get money out of him they still rack up legal fees and it's a win-win for them.

Boldsmobile

In Mass they dont care about condition. They strictly go by the average retail value, unless purchased from a dealer.

Boldsmobile

Do you think they will be bothered to go look for the BOS from the DMV?

Hopefully you have proof that is good enough for a bankruptcy court that you paid $3000.

Others recommended you sell to a friend. I dont think that will get you out of what they beleive you owe them.

MDchanic

I wouldn't quite go that far...

They leant the money in the hopes that they could squeeze as much extra as humanly possible out of him in extra fees and charges. In this case, their gamble didn't pay off, and they need to do the best they can before they close the books.

This, I believe, is the true essence of legal practice (save for a few badly underpaid prosecutors and Legal Aid lawyers). The giant sucking sound you hear is the blood leaving your body.

- Eric

jaunty75

I have to respectfully disagree.

In divorce cases or lawsuits against big companies, yes, lawyers have the potential to make big money. But this requires one of the parties in question to have deep pockets.

In this case, the OP's father declared bankruptcy. He's got no money. So who are the lawyers going to get these racked-up legal fees from? The court? I doubt it. The trustee appointed by the court to examine the assets and determine their value is likely paid a salary that doesn't depend on how valuable the assets are that are identified. How do we know that the trustee is even a lawyer? Couldn't it be an accountant?

The only other lawyers involved would be those working for the creditors, and those are likely staff attorneys who, again, are on salary.

The only attorney here not working for the court or the creditors would be one hired by the debtor, and what lawyer is going to take on a case in the hopes of making big money when his client is bankrupt?

Divorce? Yes, if one or both parties has money, the lawyers can milk it. Lawsuit against a big chemical company for polluting the local groundwater or a big drug company for selling a defective cancer drug or something like that? Yes, the lawyers will jump in and hope for a big, millions of dollars settlement.

But a private citizen declaring bankruptcy? No. I don't see this as a way for lawyers to make big money.

gbodyfan

I think if that were to i would have had to sell shortly after buying it. They way it sounds now i just owe them money and if i dont pay i can turn the car over or get a judgment placed against me.

gbodyfan

Im sure the credit cards got there orignall investment back. My dad tried for 2 years to get them paid off. With all the fees and bs it just got never ending.

You seem to be in favor of the collectors so why dont you just give me the $2000 and ill pay them and it will be done. Its pretty much the same situation im in.

Highwayman

No disrespect perceived.

I've not seen posted where someone from the court or the bank's lawyer's has been out to inspect the car or get an honest appraisal. So there maybe was a clerk that looked in NADA or someone just pulled a number out of their behind. Either way, when that number is presented to the court, until it's disputed and proven otherwise it will stand because it's the only number the court has to work with. I might be wrong but I've been assuming it is a bank lawyer behind the claim. Win or lose, they bill by the hour. The lawyer wins even if his client, the bank, loses.

So the bank lawyer makes the claim that G-guy owes $2K and the court sends out the letter. A lot of folks are intimidated at the prospect of being sued. It's going cost them an appraisal, most likely a lawyer and lost wages from taking off work. It can add up quick to the $2K being demanded and some folks will cut their losses and just pay up. The bank lawyer wins.

Or you sign over the car. It goes to auction and the proceeds go to the bank. The bank lawyer wins.

If the car does not bring $2K at auction the bank lawyer can come after you for the difference. He racks up more hours billed and the lawyer wins.

If you get an appraisal and it's more than $3K, you will get stuck for the difference. You've done their homework for then and the bank lawyer still wins.

So you get the appraisal and win in court. You keep the car and don't have to pay the bank. You are still out time and money so you don't really win. But the scumbag lawyer for the bank still bills the bank and collects his money. There is no downside for him. He wins whatever happens.

oldsguybry

I would not give them sh@t ! I would part it , or like someone else said on here .... store it at someone elses place !

oldsguybry

My mom made the mistake of buying a new car with her 401K money and then claimed bankruptcy , or she bought it after the fact . I don't remember which , but my mom ended up paying for the car twice ! besides all the other reasons they screwed her to which I'm not going to get in to .

Highwayman

Let me explain again why that is dumb. They don't want the car. They have no desire to take possession of an old POS Chevy. They want cash. They will take the car as a last resort, but they don't want it. If the car disappears, G-guy's proof that the car isn't worth what they claim it is goes away. Getting rid of the car is the fastest way for G-guy to screw himself.

rocketraider

And that is the rub. There is no clear evidence or support that the car in question is even worth $5000 or could be sold for anywhere near that. Being a 60s Impala from a reasonably rust free area it probably could, but. Without an honest and accurate appraisal, it's just the state/fed/whoever fishing for whatever amount they THINK they can get.

Even though I generally think trial lawyers are rapacious scumbags, you need one familiar with bankruptcy law for this. Don't put it off. The possibility exists that if they prevail and you have to pay them the extra $2G, they may also try to seize or put a lien on other assets you have.

RE credit card companies: they're too lenient in granting credit to people who obviously should not have it or don't know how to manage it, but that's their gamble. Look at the near-usurious interest rates some of them charge and then tack on late fees etc- it's a money-making gamble for them. They hate me because I am not a good credit customer at all- I pay the balance off IN FULL every month and they get no interest. I'm also known to haggle over an annual fee and if they don't play my way, I close the account. There are too many CC companies who WILL waive the fee for a long-term and reliable customer to put up with that crap.

But, since they make no money off me, they flood my mailbox with cash advance offers and checks which immediately go into the shredder.

Credit cards are a useful tool if used and managed well. If not they soon become a fearsome master. It's the same thing with cash advance and title loan lenders. Those businesses ought to be completely outlawed as they prey on people who can least afford to use them.

jaunty75

Correct, the BANK lawyer wins. He's paid by the bank. He gets a salary. The bank stands to make more money (or, more correctly, get more of what it's owed) if the lawyer does his work, but the lawyer himself may not make more money unless his pay in some way is based on the amount collected.

jaunty75

Don't make stupid comments, OK?

I'm sorry you're in a tough spot, but you came on here asking for comments and advice and you're getting it. Some of it might not be exactly what you want to hear, but if you want a shoulder to cry on, go find a clergyman.

I'm trying to present a balanced argument here. I said above that I'm on the side of the bank here because what your father did is very much in keeping with what people do to try to hide or get rid of assets, whether or not that is actually true in this situation. It's reasonable for them to do what they're doing.

I ALSO said that I agree with the $3000 valuation of the car in question, at least based on your description of it as we've not seen any photos. If you're correct, you might have some work ahead of you, but it seems you should come out ok.

jaunty75

I'm sorry, but I just don't think we're getting the full, unbiased story here. We're getting the version that comes from one of the two sides in the situation, and the person doing the reporting (you) has a lot of emotional investment here that may be coloring his descriptions.

If the bank got their money back, then why did your father have to declare bankruptcy at all? How much money did the fees and "bs" amount to? One doesn't declare bankruptcy because of "bs."

gbodyfan

For starters I agree with you people should take responcability and should pay there bills. Thats why i only owe money on my house and pickup. The problem i have is that the bank now made it my problem.

No bias emotional crap i dont the best relationship with my dad he lives 3 blocks away and i go months without talking to him. I have been raising myself pretty much since midddle school i have had a job and i work hard for what i got. Thats why i have a problem just saying give us $2000 or else.

The deal is his ex girlfriend charged i believe he said it was around $10,000 worth of **** in the matter of a few months then skipped town. He was stuck paying for it. In credit card debt the fees and interst add up. Then he got laid off fees and what not add up quick when your on unemployment. Then he got enother jod started paying on it trying to work with the bank could just never catch up. My dad held out as long as he could before filling for bankruptcy.

Its in the works to get the car appraised. I have a feeling that im still gonna get the shaft on this deal.

Troys Toy 70

G-body-

I certainly understand that this is a difficult situation to be put in, but you are getting some poor advice in this post. Getting rid of the car, parting it out, etc. will not relieve you of the claim from a Federal court. I know as soon as I write this that someone knew someone that did this and it was alright, but I'll bet that for every 1 that did work, there are 100 that didn't. More than likely, the Credit Card companies have someone less than an attorney working on this. Think about it, over $1.3 million BK cases were filed last year. One attorney on the credit card companies staff overseeing a team of workers. On the Debtor's side, BK attorney's don't make their money in drawing out Bankruptcies. They deal in volume. If I read your post right, it appears that your Dad's BK attorney is giving you advise. Keep in mind you are not his client, he is not looking out for your best interest.

I said it last night, and I will say it again you need someone to protect your interest. Do you know what happens if you say, I'll just give the car back? how do you get your $3,000 back? What if you get two appraisals for less than the $5,000, what happens next? You should have guidance that is looking after your best interest is all I am saying.

jaunty75

Mr. Toys has it right. We're sorry to hear of your situation and your difficulties. You probably do need legal advice of your own, and your interests don't necessarily coincide with those of your father.

The life lessons one could learn from what happened to your father would fill a book, and it sounds like even you don't know the full story of his situation given that you have not had much contact with him over the years. It sounds, however, like you have your own financial head screwed on right.

It just seems that $10,000 in debt isn't all that much in the grand scheme of things, especially when you say that your father is now employed again and that the bank got it all back. What was left? A few hundred or maybe $1,000 in late fees? Your father declared bankruptcy over that? It seems unlikely. Again, there's more going on here than even you would appear to know.

But we have strayed from the original topic, and that was what can you do about your situation. As noted, it appears you need some legal advice of your own. You've gotten caught up in the maelstrom (good word, huh?) of your father's financial difficulties. We hope it works out for you.

gbodyfan

I agree getting rid of or parting the car out isnt gonna help me they are only after money. I talked to my dads lawyer and the lawyer who sent me the notice they both said to get the car appraised and give the creditors money. The way they made it sound was even if it was aprraised at $2000 they still want money from me.

I am in the process of getting a lawyer and gonna get the car appraised.

rocketraider

After reading your situation on ROP, I think your dad needs a private detective as much as he needs a bankruptcy lawyer. A detective who is good at his job and will haul his quarry in to face the music.

And that, my friend, is why unless you're married to it, you never put your name on ANYTHING for anyone. There is no sense or future in taking responsibility for someone else's debts, especially if there's even an inkling that party might skip town and leave you stuck with the bill. Your dad's not the first person I've known to go thru this.

My sympathy to your dad for getting suckered by a manipulative no-account woman. Learn from his experience, though it looks like his hard luck has caught you up in a mess not of your own making.

jaunty75

This doesn't make sense. If your father got $3,000 from you for a car worth $2,000, he owes YOU $1,000! Certainly the creditors aren't entitled to any additional money regardless of what their lawyers say, unless there's some aspect of bankruptcy law that I'm missing. You're consulting a lawyer of your own. Good!

OLDSRALLYE350

Got any pictures of the car it would be nice to see whats the cause of all the trouble.

allyolds68

Is there a solid trail for the $3000 or not? If you paid him cash I think you're screwed. There's nothing to prove that he just didn't give you the car.

MaxDog

I am an attorney. I can't give you legal advice because I don't know enough about the circumstances. What I can tell you is that some of the advice you are getting in this thread is very bad and will get you thrown in JAIL. THe bankruptcy judges and trustees take attempted/actual fraud very seriously. I'm not saying thats what happened here. But if they suspect it, they will take very aggressive action against you. This is not something to screw around with.

If it were me, I would get two appraisals, from CERTIFIED appraisers that have experience doing appraisals for bankruptcies. Not your Uncle Joey. Professional appraisers. Hopefully you can get appraisals that show the value of the car is $3,000 or something close to it. Take those to your Dad's lawyer, along with proof of payment of the $3,000, ask the lawyer to submit them to the court/trustee. The Court/Trustee will then make a decision as to whether you have to pay some additional money to your Dad's creditors.

Again, this is not legal advice to you specifically, its just what I would do if I was in this situation myself.

By the way, I hate lawyers too. But to all of you making comments regarding "the bloodsucking attorneys, etc." - When was the last time you worked for free??? I gave up 8 years of my life for undergraduate and lawschool, busted my *** for all of those 8 years, spent over $100,000 for tuition, worked the entire 8 years, got divorced because I was never around for my wife, read so many thousands of pages of cases that I damaged my eyes. Then once I finally graduated, I had to study for 8 hours per day for 3 months straight for the bar exam. Now I have to deal with ******* opposing counsel and whinney *** clients all day. Your damn right I'm going to charge an arm and a leg to represent someone. If you don't like it, kiss my *** and represent yourself. Good day.

jaunty75

Thank you, MaxDog. That's the best post in the entire thread.

My sister, brother, and brother-in-law are all practicing attorneys, so I have been given special dispensation to tell lawyer jokes all day long. If fact, they're the ones who ask me most if I've heard any good ones lately.

redoldsman

It sound to me like your dad should pay the $2,000 if you wind up owing it. He is working now and the one that got you into this mess. About the minimum and attorney is going to bill at is $250/hour. Do the math and you will see you can spend much time with an attorney. EIght hours and you are at $2,000 in attorney fees. If he is unsuccessful you are in the hole for a total of $4,000. If I remember right, you said the car is a 64 Impala. If it is a Super Sport or even a 2 door hardtop, it is going to be worth over $3,000. Go to ebay and see what they are selling for, not what they are listed for. It will give you an idea. Chances are pretty good if you offer them $1,000, they will take it. They have to pay the attorney too so they will not spend too much time on it. I hope this does not turn out to be one of those lessons learned. Good luck.

gearheads78

Sorry I couldn't stop laughing. I used to see the same crap when I was a new car salesman.

Creativeindy

From someone who filed bankruptcy recently (2 years ago last Tuesday) I can in fact tell you they do go back up to a certain time (2 years?)and if you transferred any real property or assets to a family member they will take a closer look at what was transferred and why. I went through this same bullshit with my Motorcycle.

I did not do it intentional, I sold my bike to a family member 11 months before I filed. Back then I didn't even think I would file and my life was fine. 11 months later a split up and divorce caused me to have some very serious debt, missed car payments, credit cards, the house we had together, her apartment she broke the lease on all of it was being garnished off my pay so I had no choice to file.

You are required to list previous years income, tax returns, lottery winnings, real property, etc etc. They do require you to disclose if you have transferred any real property to any family members in the past "X" amount of time. My family member didn't have to pay anything extra because I could easily prove I was not in debt when I sold it.

Now I could see if someone was WAAAAY behind on things, credit card bills, creditors trying to get money etc etc and someone sold something to a family member. If they didn't use any of the money to pay creditors or they sold it for a very small amount in an attempt to give it to family instead of loosing it in bankruptcy. I could definitely see them going back to the family member to get the car or money if it's certified worth more.

So I have to ask has it ever been appraised prior or has the trustee had it appraised yet? Because I know for a fact a US Bankruptcy trustee can't just put his own price on a debtors property or past transferred property. They can't just sit around and say "Oh Mr. X's car he sold to his son is worth 5k in my eyes so he must pay us more". There is some missing info here on this. I JUST went through all this with land, car and motorcycle mentioned above. I know they can't just make up there own amounts.

oldsguybry

You are probably right ! Sorry for any bad advice , it just pisses me off !

Jamesbo

If there weren't any bad people, There would be no need for good lawyers.

FWIW The reason divorce is so expensive is because IT'S WORTH IT

jerseymike

it was a joke,just trying to give the guy a quick chuckle,seems like he could use one about now.

gbodyfan

I should have a bank statement showing the $3000 withdraw around the time of purchase. Im sure the trail from the bank to his house has washed away by now. That was last fall trie tracks dont last that long