Why no pictures from under the hood and why won’t the seller answer legitimate questions about his car ?

 

Just wait until a very early W30 vert surfaces with a broadcast card imprinted with W30; that is when the poo will hit the fan, and the real conversation begins. It’s bound to happen when an overzealous fraudster purchases the broadcast card off dBay and forges the document to match his vert, unknowingly aware of what’s in play

 

​​​​​​Have you specifically asked the seller questions about the sellers car?
How did you ask the seller questions about the sellers car? Email, through Ebay or by phone?
Did the seller ignore your calls, eBay questions, or email regarding your questions?

 

Most here have no interest to chase and perform all of the research and leg work required to seek out 1970 W-30 4 speed convertibles. The oldest published W-30 production figures I am familiar with come from Patrick Sullivan’s book, stating that 96 of these W-Machines were produced. This number may or many not be accurate , but is widely accepted.

Of those cars only a fraction exist which are considered to be original and authentic, by some who have been keeping track of these cars for decades even before there was an internet. For every one of these cars, there are multiple cars with claims of similar provenance. Some of those might even be the real deal. But there is no doubt that more W-30 4 speed convertibles exist today than were ever produced in Lansing, back in the day.

As of today there are only a few of these cars, deemed authentic which can be purchased. None are publicly advertised (that I am aware). The cut it loose prices are in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. So while this particular car may not fetch those prices, it will likely bring more than a 442 4 speed in similar condition, which can also be a bunch.

While not all will agree, W-30s can be authenticated without a broadcast card , window sticker or other such documents. Today paper, plastic, metal items can be duplicated without detection. While having all of the above with a confirmation of authenticity will definitely boost the value of such a W-30 in the open market.

Stephen Minore’s Report doesn’t at this point confirm the car as authentic, but he does remove some of the element of doubt, that it is definitely not.

I believe that the authentication and documentation trail of this Oldsmobile is not yet finished.

 

I sent two separate messages through EBay to the seller requesting pictures of under the hood. I also asked the seller if his car has the original date code correct carb, alternator and distributor. I also asked if the car has F heads. The seller has my EBay account name from the messages that I sent and I also provided my personal email address to him in my message. No response to either message that I sent. The messages were sent Friday morning.

 

I agree 100% Stefano - well said.

 

The price is aimed at the BJ/Mecum/Russo crowd; to which I say: let the fool and their money part at will. The thing I find most ridiculous is the amount of sellers advertising clones and tributes as original cars. Hell, Yenko stripes, stickers, and headrests were adding $10k to a Nova 20 years ago. Now, with the proliferation of the internet, that concept has reached out to all makes and models.
Let's say you find a legit W-30 missing all the important bits. You're not likely to find the originals, so is a racecar acceptable or does it need to be a no numbers restoration? Does it matter?

 

Thank you. I'm glad you are providing first hand knowledge and not hearsay.
I briefly read the seller's description and the seller described the distributor and rear. If the seller doesn't respond and if 4 speed W-30's were available with air, I would bid the car as a W-30 (1of 96) as advertised. When I am the successful bidder the seller has a duty to disclose the answers to my questions. I would also put my eyes on the car. If the car is not a W-30, I would withdraw my bid. That's what I would do if I wanted to buy the car.
Further, I haven't seen Steven's report. I know Steve well enough that he would disclose the car does not have F heads, and the correct carburetor, if in fact it didn't.

 

Yeah but.....sometimes the "bolt on" stuff grows legs and walks away after the inspection/judging closes.

 

Replying to this and an earlier post of yours in the thread about not having docs and popular options means fraud on this site. Having documents helps; but they're not required. For extreme high dollar prices; those cars have documents, and it is a stronger sale to have them. If we had two identical cars, one with, and one without, for the same price, a buyer would go for the documented one always. This implies the undocumented car must have a lower price to be competitive in sales to cover for that lack of documentation. Not a fraud, just less competitive.

Now, if you have no documents, and things are wrong, the car inches towards fraudulent with every thing that is not wrong or explained. However, it is worth pointing out that the answer "Do you think it is a real W-30?" is not just a binary answer as in "Yes, I do," or "No, it is a fake." There is a "I am not yet convinced it is real, and I am skeptical." There are people who attack a skeptic as not being true to the hobby in spirit, or shitting on someone's ride, when, in reality, we ALL need to be a skeptic until proof is presented. Nothing more than a skeptic, and nothing less.

As for ebay, I would expect a seller to answer my questions before I bidded. I only bid with intent to buy. I might go see the car if I could, on my dime. The last high dollar car I bought was on Hemmings, but local, and I inspected it three times and drove it once before buying it.

 

Kool 442, please start a thread on it!

 

It's not mine; it's a painter in Ohio. He claims it is/was a real W-30 roller out of Arizona. It has a roll cage, Sniper injection, and a BBO. That was Drag Week 2019, and it went 10.teens all week with a 9.95 on the last day, set on kill.

 

Don't assume anything. When a seller fails to mention a high dollar part, assume it is missing until verified! Similar to another post, these high dollar parts tend to walk after report writing. Ask me how I know. Jeez!....

 

If someone is going to pay for the Rocket report (which cannot be cheap), why only list 3 pages of it as part of the listing? Maybe its just me, but I would share it all or not at all. I am not a bidder, but if the seller refused to respond to common questions, well that would be a no go for most people to not bid. I am sure others will be undeterred.

 

With approximately 3 1/2 days to go, the price is $66,100.00.

 

Let you know something about Ebay.
If you put any info that can give outside contact info: Email, phone number, address anything. Ebay will not deliver the message. Surprised you didn't get a message from EBay when you sent the message.
Couple reasons:
1 Trying to stop fraud.
2 Trying to stop sales off site Ebay sales.
(Sales that started on Ebay but the buyer and seller use other means to completethe transaction)
Mainly because Ebay looses those final value fees.

 

Originally Posted by Bigmikey65 View Post

" The seller has my EBay account name from the messages that I sent and I also provided my personal email address to him in my message. No response to either message"


I focused whether or not Bigmikey65 made direct contact.....or his response was based on third party or hearsay when corresponding with the seller....... the above sentence requires clarification. Doesn't seem logical that the seller wouldn't respond.

 

Stephen J. Minore is on Facebook. If you are a serious buyer (and not just a chicken choker) perhaps you could message him and see how long ago he looked at the car and what major pieces he found missing.

 

Was your message intended for me??

 

If you or anyone else are not getting answers from the ebay seller, this was just a suggestion for an alternative path. The message wasn't directed at any one specifically. BTW, I've never met Steve, but I hear he has a list of qualified buyers for special cars. My gut tells me that if this car is really "all that" it would have sold long before it was put on ebay.

tc

 

You haven't answered my question. You are referring to whom as a "chicken choker?"

 

Please don't take that comment personally. Your post just happened to be the last one before mine. You do not appear to be one that is having issues getting info from the seller, so no, this comment was not directed at you.

My comment was directed at those who are asking questions of the ebay seller and not getting answers. A suggestion to contact Steve was for the serious buyer(s) and not just anyone who is curious about the car. If you've ever sold a car, you know about chicken chokers. They waste your time and want lots of tidbits of info, but aren't going to buy the car unless it is way under market price.

tc

 

I contacted the owner this morning using message switching. The individual responded within the hour.

According to the owner there were problems uploading all the photographs during the initial listing so a partial upload was done. Before the remainder of the photos could be uploaded someone placed a bid, and because of that, the owner was unable to upload the remaining images.

The owner gave consent to upload the following images to Classic Olds because of member interest in the car and to provide additional information to any interested party. I have no interest in this car and my sole purpose and responsibility for uploading these images is to benefit the owner and any interested party. Individuals are reminded to verify any information contained in these documents before acting upon them.

 

Very Very good point right there. If it was All That someone in his circle would have snatched it.

 

Once this car is bought by a heavy hitter, a fairy tale resto story, money, and a word hammer will seal the deal. The provenance will never be questioned again and it will sell for huge money.

 

I have participated in a few EBay auctions before. Looking at the latest bidding history on this car, it seems as though there is back and forth bidding between two bidders. One has a screen name 7***4 and the other is 7***6. I am not a EBay auction expert. If you look at the bidding history is it possible that two separate bidders have such close screen names ? Or am I missing something and 7***4 and 7***6 is something else - not their screen names ? If they are anonymous screen names that are assigned why would EBay make them look so similar ? If that’s the case then it just looks a little peculiar to me.

 

they are their names blanked out. Used to be you could see the entire name, but that was 15 years ago.

 

______________________________________

It's a double edged sword, some will say it's a good thing--the big money; others will complain it is ruining the hobby. Can't please them all.

 

________________
Oh, I certainly agree about the provenance never questioned once it is blessed by big money. That has been proven before by the auction houses.

 

This car is a 4 speed convertible and numbers matching. So far, less than $100.000.00. A few months ago, an automatic convertible, equipped with an engine and OW transmission, neither of which matched the Vin number, sold in excess of $250,000.00. The reserve was $125,000.00. W-30 badges!! Looks like the 4 speed is a bargain.

 

Who knows if its real deal or not. That said, its hard to imagine that only a 3 yr old car was allowed to have such an obvious poor stripe job in 1973. Possible, of course, but the same family owned it for 50 yrs and did not care to have stripes correctly done when the car was still basically fairly new (meaning if the same family owned the car for that long, they loved it from day one). Also, owned by the same family for all those yrs, yet the new owner shared that there are only a few older pics of the car available, but all are newer than the year 2000. I was 16 yrs old when I bought my first 442 and still have several pics of that car. Like I said, who knows. It is a great looking car no matter what, even if its simply an awesome 70-442 vert w/4 speed. Btw, I wrecked my first 70 442 a few times and made sure that all pin stripes were perfectly repainted by a decent body shop. But, I was always wild about things being done correctly on my car, even back then.

 

Question for the experts on this car..shouldn’t the underside of the hood have the metal screen like the hardtops? Exhaust tail pipes stick out quite a ways from bumper…replaced or are they correct? Very very cool car.. Personally I think its definitely on the better side of being the real deal..

 

I like this car, but have a few observations that don't add up. The car does not have the correct 256 carburetor. The owner has a correct 1111977 distributor, but it's not installed. ? The red wells are in poor condition, have no mud flaps ? and the air cleaner looks like a re-pop. The alternator is incorrect. Stripes are really bad, and in '73, they could have gotten direction from a local dealership.
These inconsistencies make it hard to believe it's an original low mile W30. The parts are easy enough to source, so if no docs are required, anyone can own a 1 of 96.
I do have interest, so anyone with facts, please feel free to discuss.

 

Twenty two minutes left in the auction.

 

Surprised it only went to 80k, who knows what reserve was set at.
As I said earlier probably 100,000 plus or minus 5 grand

 

I did not realize distributor was not installed. Weird.. but if someone put a modern pertronix in it i could see it but if it’s just got another Oldsmobile point style distributor that is kind of strange., You bring up some really good points Vader. However I don’t know if we’ll ever get to know the answer to these things

 

I'll be over here choking my chicken

 

________________I don't understand why sellers even use the reserve option and when they do they want to keep it a BIG SECRET. In my opinion it causes more trouble than it's worth. Useless bidders playing around with your listing, and it also goes a long way toward pi--ing people off too.

To me the better option is list the item at your minimum starting price if that is allowed, or show the darn reserve price in the listing description so people can be informed. I just don't like the secrecy about the whole thing. It’s not like when the auction ends the sales prices is going to be a BIG SECRET. Just my 2-cents worth.

 

____________________I've never owned a '70 W30 vert, so I can't answer regarding the hood screen, or pipes. My hunch is that the screen was an original part for this car. I'll say this, my W30 hardtop has the original hood screen. And my car has basically the same number of miles on it as the subject car, and my car shipped to me with far, far, fewer replacement parts. I'm willing to bet the list Vader came up with is nowhere near the complete list. I'm thinking radiator, water pump, fuel pump, shocks, original spare tire; the list of incorrect parts can be just about endless, and all this 'stuff' costs more than a fair amount of money when it comes replacement time.

Somewhere on this site, and I think it was “Stefano” stated that more '70 W30 4-speeds verts exists today than were manufactured; if that is indeed the case then that brings into play a serious issue for folks in the market for these vehicles, and the ones owning them as well.

 

I have been watching this thread and have viewed these pictures. I am in agreement with Mike, there, are more questions than there are answers.